Was the Casemiro signing a mistake?

RedUnited86

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If you have to look at replacing a player who you've spent £60 million and £350,000 a week on just 2 years after bringing him in, then yes it's a collosal mistake.

Another ill thought out short sighted transfer.
 

Stacks

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These days, Real Madrid and ourselves compete in different markets and don't even cross paths in the course of a summer. What's good for them has no relevance whatsoever to us. They hoovered the most elite youngsters in the world, almost to a man, with all of them falling of themselves to go there; we couldn't even get Bellingham to look our way after pulling out the big guns to try and capture his signature.

We cannot get world class players, upcoming or in their prime to come here - the only chance is when they are older and seek a new challenge, and at that, only by offering premium rates.

So you're essentially saying we should not pursue players of this calibre until we are a force again. If that's reasonable to you, then you can tag a few years more on to any projected timeline because the experience and quality these players have is something to be harnessed and utilised for the greater good of an entire squad, if you used correctly. The failing is in not having a coherent plan around these players; from the moment they are signed, you've maybe 2yrs before their replacement should be lined up and rotating minutes with them. We failed with both Varane and Casemiro to implement that.
allegedly Bellingham wanted to come but we made no guarantees of 1st team football. We also signed Sancho, who was one of the more famous young players in Europe. We are perhaps bad at negotiating?
 

Iker Quesadillas

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As a Real Madrid fan I can say Casemiro was sorely missed last season. Tchouameni wasn't at his level, and isn't yet. He's also out for the next two months, like Casemiro.

The ideal scenario for either team is solid veteran DM + younger DM. United are closer to this than Madrid, you just have to go sign the young DM. Harder to find the veteran, proven DM who wants to leave.
 

norm87cro

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If the club knew what it was doing then no.
Since the club doesnt then yes. Casemiro is a great dm going into his senior years and he could have been a reinforcment had everything else been in place. Pretty similar to Matic TBH
 

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The thing is when you compare some of the worst transfers of recent times (Sancho, VdB, Antony etc) then you can't put Casemiro on the shit list since he did have a good season last year

Even this year when off form he's chipped in with vital goals
 

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allegedly Bellingham wanted to come but we made no guarantees of 1st team football. We also signed Sancho, who was one of the more famous young players in Europe. We are perhaps bad at negotiating?
We have no real plan or vision to present and it puts players (and managers, Klopp) off. I don't know how keen Bellingham ever was to come, but we pulled out everything we had to entice him and still fell short, treating him like a prospect rather than someone who should be in the team proper.

Seems to me Sancho was also sold a false ideal, which has gone down like a lead balloon. Our reputation has dropped some since the Sancho pursuit, too, which means the premium for buying that level of repute will go up.

If you're one of the hottest talents on the planet, your options are vast and a club has to satisfy your ambition. When's the last time we could say we do that with a straight face?
 

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As a Real Madrid fan I can say Casemiro was sorely missed last season. Tchouameni wasn't at his level, and isn't yet. He's also out for the next two months, like Casemiro.

The ideal scenario for either team is solid veteran DM + younger DM. United are closer to this than Madrid, you just have to go sign the young DM. Harder to find the veteran, proven DM who wants to leave.
Exactly.
 

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As a Real Madrid fan I can say Casemiro was sorely missed last season. Tchouameni wasn't at his level, and isn't yet. He's also out for the next two months, like Casemiro.

The ideal scenario for either team is solid veteran DM + younger DM. United are closer to this than Madrid, you just have to go sign the young DM. Harder to find the veteran, proven DM who wants to leave.
That's an encouraging post. Thanks.
 

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We overpaid. He is clearly a class player... though I am still really annoyed about the level of fitness he showed at the start of the season. Not good enough.

Far from our worst transfer, but would have been better to pay more and get Rice or Caicedo who could play for us for years probably.
 

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I actually think he has been amazing for us overall. If you put in to context the kind of work he has had to do in midfield it speaks volumes. If you have a setup where everyone basically runs forward and stays on line with the attacker a lone DM is going to have a hell of a hard time coping. The fact that we have looked semi decent at times actually says everything about how good he is.
 

Jericho

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At his age he should have been the final piece of the jigsaw to make a run at the title. But even with his age I don't think it was a mistake given that he's still our best midfielder and had a excellent 1st season. I think if the team gets it's act together this year he'll come good again.
 

AgentSmith

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As with most of United's signings over the last decade, the issue wasn't necessarily the transfer itself, but the lack of thought for how to utilise the player before/after the deal had been made.

Casemiro at 31 years of age needs a capable deputy to help him manage his minutes; preferably a younger player who could be moulded into his longer-term replacement. And while someone like Kobbie Mainoo looks an excellent prospect, he's likely too young to fill in for this deputy role, and would probably be better served being slowly introduced as the number eight alongside someone like Casemiro, rather than instead of.

Instead of fawning for a player like Amrabat for the entire summer, we should have been targeting a younger CDM with good mobility and athleticism. This player could then have played in Casemiro's place, or next to him in games where we wanted to be more defensively sound.

Casemiro also needed to be played in a manner which suits his game, not as the almost lone deep-lying playmaker he's been deployed as many times this year. He's played his best football next to Eriksen, who provides the intelligence and ability on the ball from deep which compliment him. Now Eriksen is nowhere near the physical level required to play CM at the top level, but transitioning from him to Mount (while losing Fred) is partially why our midfield has destabilised. The signing of Mount didn't help Casemiro, nor did it provide a good balance to Bruno Fernandes.

If we make the signing of Amrabat a permanent one - which seems the plan as why else would you spend £8.5 million on a loan fee for someone like him? - that will bring the total invested in midfield reinforcements this summer to nearly £90 million (£30 million on Amrabat + £55 million on Mount, potentially rising to £60 million). Yet none of that money has actually been spent on a player who compliments Casemiro. Which makes the original outlay spent on him look much worse than it could have been, with a more deliberate and well-thought-out plan.

That being said, a player with Casemiro's experience has to take responsibility for his performances this season, which have been abysmal and painfully naive at times. You shouldn't need the perfect conditions to deliver a good midfield performance at home against Galatasaray, as an example.

Continuing to play ninety minutes for Brazil every international break with thousands of miles of travel is also not helping things either. He went off injured in Brazil's first game during the last break, but played the second game. Came back here and couldn't play for three games as a result. Then goes off injured in his first game back at half-time, to then be ruled out for two months. So why did he play that second game for Brazil?

So there's some individual blame set against a backdrop of poor collective planning when assessing Casemiro's signing.
 

Varun

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Not at the time we signed him as we had a solid core of players at their peak and he added elite quality in our weakest area. It went great for a season too but come this summer, instead of buying an 8 to play with him and take the team to the next level, we've managed to feck it up like only we can and gone backwards making the signing a disaster unless we fix up the mess this summer.
 

Orange Tree

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It's a short term signing to tide us over for a couple of seasons.

We did get back into the CL, so it wasn't a disaster. This season has been bad, but everyone is underperforming.
 

Huddsred

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We paid well over the odds for him, that's for sure. Madrid must have been laughing all the way to the bank to get £60m for a 30 year old who they would have known was on the slide anyway.
 

RedUnited86

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Can we please stop pulling wages out our ass like this? I see it all the time. Antony is not on close to 350k a week, stop making up nonsense. His base wage is at 150k with bonuses he can get 200k a week (which is what it's reported at being by the media because it's us)
Well done, this is a Casemiro thread

Ohhh I see what you did there :lol:
 

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There's a strong case to be made that without him the team would have finished outside the top 4, so from a financial perspective, the CL money from this season probably already paid off most of the transfer fee.

If they can sell him off to a Saudi club at an FFP profit sometime in 2024, Casemiro will have been very good business overall. If they hang on to him and play him sporadically over 2-3 more seasons while paying him like a world class starter, it will have been terrible business.
 

AndySmith1990

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Yeah it was a mistake, but as usual people only look at the short term and will get so excited about a signing that it's impossible to suggest it's anything other than good news.

We funded a large part of Real Madrids purchase of Bellingham. A player who will likely contribute to them winning several more CL's, after which point they'll flog him to mugs like us and they'll move on to the next up and coming superstar, whilst we continue to fail and wonder why.

We'll never learn
 

samlee86

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That's certainly true if we didn't sign Casemiro and also didn't sign anyone else. But there's no reason those should have been our only two options, especially given Casemiro himself wasn't our first choice.

Other top sides manage to find younger and/or cheaper DMs all the time. Was it really impossible for us to do the same?

You mention Fernandinho playing until he was 35, but the key point is that City didn't risk the success of the transfer on him doing so by buying him for a massive fee/wages the season he was going to turn 31. In fact City tellingly almost never make Casemiro-profile signings.
Well who are these great 25 year old DM we should have signed instead?

Frenkie De Jong wanted nothing to do with us.

If I remember correctly we signed Casemiro on deadline day after we lost our opening 2 games of the season 1-6.

Won us the EFL cup. Single handedly dragged us over the line into the top 4. Without him last season would have been a mess.

Casemiro is still a top player but he being left massively exposed. In a team with a game plan he would excel.

Was it a mistake to sign Casemiro? Absolutely not.

Are we a poorly run club with no transfer strategy. Very much yes.
 

Tom Cato

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Every signing is a failure until it brings us trophies. Then the player becomes a failure again if we dont win trophies the season after winning one
 

FrenchRed

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Short term fix for a long term problem. Did well last year and gave us a boost to get over the line for 4th, but was never a solution over about 2 seasons.

The 4 year deal was a huge mistake, even more so now his legs have gone 12 months into the deal.
 

Maticmaker

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No, IMO it was not a mistake, we knew his age and his style would be tested in the PL, but we also knew of his quality, and we saw last season how much of an effect he had in helping create the performances which saw us reach two finals and finish 3rd in the PL. It is similar to the Varane situation, his susceptibility to pace/injury was known from the 'get -go' and in both case we know Real Madrid don't let any of their top players go if there is more than 2 or 3 seasons left at their level.

The costs for both are justified as there is arguably enough 'left in the tank' with both players to help ETH make the changes he wants to make, to transition to a new style at OT, with a mix of older players like these two and Erikson and the 'younger bloods' emerging like Garnacho and some middle order squad players, we already had. However, the plan was hit badly at the start of this season with all the injuries, so its likely the investment in such as Casemiro may not produce the benefits expected or in the time frame envisaged.

Even taking the above into consideration, I would argue it was not a mistake, more of a gamble, which for a large part of last season looked like paying off handsomely.
 

evil_geko

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Like I said before, it was not a mistake, last season alone was worth it.
 

Oranges038

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I wouldn't call it a mistake as such.

The big mistake was not signing a proper midfield partner for him and a player who could learn from and eventually take over from him.
 

FerociousCorgis

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If we were a well run club could've prob found 2 midfield signings with the casemiro money, just would've had to actually scout for a change and not just look at big name players.
 

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I think this thing about Real Madrid or Bayern etc not letting their top players go for X or Y reason really needs to stop. Top players sometimes genuinely want a new challenge, and in the case of both Varane and Casemiro, Real wanted to keep them and they would both have had PT even this season, but the point is, in both instances, their replacement is right there in the rotation with them, which is what big, well run clubs do.

Of course these players are reaching their end in terms of absolute top level, but their slide is superior to the majority of players' active/current level and their experience and know-how is priceless if actually utilised as it is supposed to be. From the moment you're buying in that profile of player, you're supposed to be aware of all the pros and cons and prepare for them accordingly. Unlike smaller names, they still have resale value, especially in these times where the Saudi's are scooping up players who're legends of the current game, which both are.

No top club simply lets a top player go, but after a storied and successful career, most top clubs respect the wishes of stalwarts who contributed massively to that success.
 

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Maybe but I would've seriously considered moving him on this summer for a payday in Saudi.
 

sullydnl

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Well who are these great 25 year old DM we should have signed instead?

Frenkie De Jong wanted nothing to do with us.

If I remember correctly we signed Casemiro on deadline day after we lost our opening 2 games of the season 1-6.

Won us the EFL cup. Single handedly dragged us over the line into the top 4. Without him last season would have been a mess.

Casemiro is still a top player but he being left massively exposed. In a team with a game plan he would excel.

Was it a mistake to sign Casemiro? Absolutely not.

Are we a poorly run club with no transfer strategy. Very much yes.
Unless you think there happened to be a wildly unprecedented absence of DMs in the world, it's a given that there were at that time younger DMs who would/will make their way to top level clubs in the surrounding years.

Even in just the year since we've already seen (off the top of my head) Rice, Caicedo and Ugarte move to top clubs and Palhinha almost doing so before his deal to Bayern fell through too. And in subsequent years we will see other DMs do the same, all of whom were alive and playing professional football at the time we bought Casemiro, and all of whom we will be able to in retrospect identify as alternatives we could have pursued instead. You shouldn't need people who aren't professional scouts to name these players before they reach that point to understand that by sheer weight of numbers they do in fact exist.
 

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Our reputation has dropped some since the Sancho pursuit, too, which means the premium for buying that level of repute will go up.
Absolutely agree with you about the lack of planning, but I found the above interesting. Ole was your manager when you were pursuing Sancho, now obviously it is ETH, your in the Champions league, but having a rough moment right now. I don't think your reputation has dropped at all, if anything it has gone up a bit with the current manager.
 

stepic

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Yes. Definitely a mistake. Yet another player bought who is ageing and past his best, looking for short term bandaid success over building a proper long term squad.

Chelsea spent more on their defensive midfielders but at least they’re younger and don’t need replacing within 2 years
 

Iker Quesadillas

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It is similar to the Varane situation, his susceptibility to pace/injury was known from the 'get -go' and in both case we know Real Madrid don't let any of their top players go if there is more than 2 or 3 seasons left at their level.
Varane wasn't really known to be an injury-prone player before the move to United. He averaged 28.8 league and 8.4 CL starts per season in the 5 years before moving to United. Real Madrid offered him a renewal; he didn't accept and said he wanted to leave, so he was sold.
 

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We have no real plan or vision to present and it puts players (and managers, Klopp) off. I don't know how keen Bellingham ever was to come, but we pulled out everything we had to entice him and still fell short, treating him like a prospect rather than someone who should be in the team proper.

Seems to me Sancho was also sold a false ideal, which has gone down like a lead balloon. Our reputation has dropped some since the Sancho pursuit, too, which means the premium for buying that level of repute will go up.

If you're one of the hottest talents on the planet, your options are vast and a club has to satisfy your ambition. When's the last time we could say we do that with a straight face?
call me delusional but I still feel high profile players will come at a good stage in their careers. Dudes even wanted to come when we had Moyes
 

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Absolutely agree with you about the lack of planning, but I found the above interesting. Ole was your manager when you were pursuing Sancho, now obviously it is ETH, your in the Champions league, but having a rough moment right now. I don't think your reputation has dropped at all, if anything it has gone up a bit with the current manager.
The very best players follow trends and something has to give to break them - the model of so many of the young elite using Dortmund as the gateway to the best clubs on the planet being an example, just as them rejecting us (Haaland, Bellingham, Kim Min-jae and I believe we sounded out Camavinga *and* Tchouaméni) - we have to put more sweeteners than the top clubs to procure the same talent, which goes with the territory of being underperformers for the best part of a decade, but more importantly, where elite young players haven't kicked on from.

Madrid, City, Bayern and at any point Barca with "money" are the top tier for young talent now. Chelsea do absurd things, which had them scoop up Enzo and Caicedo and then you have Klopp and possibly Arsenal. We've fallen from the depths of being in that top banding a decade ago and being between groups at the time of Pogba's signing.
 

Iker Quesadillas

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Even in just the year since we've already seen (off the top of my head) Rice, Caicedo and Ugarte move to top clubs and Palhinha almost doing so before his deal to Bayern fell through too.
Other than Rice, none of these players had a glowing track record given their cost, so they were risky signings. Palhinha is also 28 years old, not that much younger than Casemiro when he was signed.
 

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Like I said before, it was not a mistake, last season alone was worth it.
A 4 year £72mil contract, plus £60mil in transfer fees for one good season.

What a bargain.

As usual, short-termism from MUFC.

If INEOS come in, you have to think there will be some strategy and foresight involved in the transfer market.
 

miked99

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There are so many masters of hindsight on this forum. They 'always knew' about every signing that went wrong, every manager that failed, every line-up that should've been different, every tactical decision that didn't go well. Should've done the opposite to that thing that didn't work. That's what they'd have done.

This place was absolutely creaming itself over Casemiro last season. Best defensive midfielder in the world, etc. Now a few months later it was a terrible mistake and he's finished :lol: Everything is either amazing or completely shit on here.

He hasn't played well this season but who has? It's difficult to establish anyone's true worth based on current performances because everyone looks crap and below par at the minute.
 

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Other than Rice, none of these players had a glowing track record given their cost, so they were risky signings. Palhinha is also 28 years old, not that much younger than Casemiro when he was signed.
Palhinha would have been a great signing. A 3 year age difference is huge.

You look at the number of professional games played in their careers too - Casemiro at 530 and Palhinha at 290. That is a lot of extra miles on the clock.

Plus £350k a week for 4 years with a one year options for a 30 year old CDM is crazy.

When the Bayern move fell through, Fulham extended him with a 5 year £13mil contract at £80k a week.
 

sullydnl

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Other than Rice, none of these players had a glowing track record given their cost, so they were risky signings. Palhinha is also 28 years old, not that much younger than Casemiro when he was signed.
Palhinha was just about to turn 27 when he signed for Fulham, the same summer we signed 30 year old Casemiro. Three years might not seem like a lot, but it encompasses the majority of the contract length we gave Casemiro, so it is a significant difference.

And crucially that profile of player comes at a much reduced cost, as opposed to targeting a high profile player from a club like Real Madrid who will inevitably come at a premium, something sides with much better recruitment than us like City rarely (never?) do.

As for the others, sure there's always a risk they don't justify the fee. But taking the risk of paying big money for a younger player seems preferable to me than the risk of paying big money for a player in their 30's.
 

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The contract should have been 2+1 or something like that. If he wanted 4 years, we should have walked away. But the club is run like a circus, so not surprised we are in this situation now. Our only hope is he agrees to go to Saudi and we have a buyer.