We are an awfully coached team

sullydnl

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How can Thomas Tuechel take over a floundering Chelsea side and go unbeaten in his first 10 league matches (winning 7 - 24 points) as well as win the Champions League, and Rangnick (Tuechel's former coach and mentor) can take over a floundering United side and in his first 10 games struggle to earn points even against the league's bottom teams (winning 5 - 19 points)? Note that United have only played West Ham (W) and Wolves (L) of the top 7 in those 10 fixtures.
Tuchel was regarded as a top level manager and on that basis was hired as the permanent Chelsea manager.

Rangnick wasn't regarded as a top level manager, was perhaps best known for his work in an entirely different role, and on that basis was hired as temporary manager until we could hire someone of the requisite standard for the permanent role with Rangnick then shifting to a more appropriate role.

So why would anyone expect Rangnick to do as well as Tuchel in that scenario? The fact that he was unlikely to be as good is baked into the very nature of the job he was given.

And that's without getting into our squad's specific flaws.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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How can Thomas Tuechel take over a floundering Chelsea side and go unbeaten in his first 10 league matches (winning 7 - 24 points) as well as win the Champions League, and Rangnick (Tuechel's former coach and mentor) can take over a floundering United side and in his first 10 games struggle to earn points even against the league's bottom teams (winning 5 - 19 points)? Note that United have only played West Ham (W) and Wolves (L) of the top 7 in those 10 fixtures.
Because we had a squad that was receptive to Tuchel's methods and the changes he rang in. It doesn't matter how good a coach is if the players are unwilling to listen.
 

Teja

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Because we had a squad that was receptive to Tuchel's methods and the changes he rang in. It doesn't matter how good a coach is if the players are unwilling to listen.
I don't think they're unwilling. Conte -> Tuchel is a far easier switch than Mou -> Ole -> Rangnick. Neither Mou nor Ole tried to play on the front foot. They just retreat into their shell as soon as they lose the ball and counter attack when they win the ball back.
 

cyberman

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Honestly think we are coached ok, we just miss so many chances. The two players we needed to score scored tonight and Sancho is finding form so let’s see where we are in a month
 

Woodenlung

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There's definitely some evidence of United becoming better at Rangnicks goal of coordinated pressing to launch quick counter attacks. Our goal and the Dunk red card both occured from after we pressed high and won possession. I don't think we have the fitness to sustain that approach however.

If Rangnick has laid the tactical groundwork for a new manager to build upon then that's progress I suppose.
 

NZT-One

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There's definitely some evidence of United becoming better at Rangnicks goal of coordinated pressing to launch quick counter attacks. Our goal and the Dunk red card both occured from after we pressed high and won possession. I don't think we have the fitness to sustain that approach however.

If Rangnick has laid the tactical groundwork for a new manager to build upon then that's progress I suppose.
Pretty sure, the teams we are aspiring to call rivals will not start to get cold feet from that "pressing"... We were outplayed by Brighton and even with ten men, they were player more assertive than we did. Not having a go at the manager, but no matter what he is trying to do, line between feckup and progress gets thinner and thinner.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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I don't think they're unwilling. Conte -> Tuchel is a far easier switch than Mou -> Ole -> Rangnick. Neither Mou nor Ole tried to play on the front foot. They just retreat into their shell as soon as they lose the ball and counter attack when they win the ball back.
I mean, you're ignoring the fact that there were 2.5 seasons between Conte and Tuchel? So Thiago Silva, Jorginho, Mount, Mendy, Havertz, CHO, James, Chilwell, and Werner all didn't overlap, so any sort of switch is irrelevant?

Again, Neville has all but confirmed the leaks suggesting United have a squad almost uniquely unreceptive to coaching. Perhaps Occam's Razor is a more logical explanation than continued excuses. There is a rather famous quote from Einstein about the definition of insanity.
 

Leftback99

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Same players, different coaches, same result.
Good to see individual brilliance back tonight.
 

TheReligion

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Standard of coaching hasn't improved much.

Potter is light years ahead of Rangnick.

Terrible first 30 minutes where we've been dominated and struggled to get out of our own half.
Urghhh you don’t bump threads and cry and moan during a game.

Half time is acceptable but this has just highlighted our plastics.

The voice of reason is @TheMagicFoolBus (a Chelsea fan) which speaks volumes.

Cringe!
 

DickDastardly

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Brighton defended really good.

And they pressed us with ease.
And it wasn't some frantic pressing like we do....they knew exactly when and who to press.

They also carried the ball from defense really good.
Cucurella and Lamptey are brilliant.

Had it not been for the red card, they might have gotten something from OT tonight.

We are miles away from a competitive team. Miles.
 

VidaRed

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Because we had a squad that was receptive to Tuchel's methods and the changes he rang in. It doesn't matter how good a coach is if the players are unwilling to listen.
Some fans can't wrap their heads around this, for them the manager is always at fault even if the players aren't implementing the managers strategy/vision.
 

Crashoutcassius

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I don't think they're unwilling. Conte -> Tuchel is a far easier switch than Mou -> Ole -> Rangnick. Neither Mou nor Ole tried to play on the front foot. They just retreat into their shell as soon as they lose the ball and counter attack when they win the ball back.
This would be a grand excuse if we didn't have the easiest run of games possible and one of the best squads in the league
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Urghhh you don’t bump threads and cry and moan during a game.

Half time is acceptable but this has just highlighted our plastics.

The voice of reason is @TheMagicFoolBus (a Chelsea fan) which speaks volumes.

Cringe!
Appreciate the vote of confidence! I find it rather bizarre from a (more or less) neutral perspective - I don't think Rangnick is doing too much wrong? It's quite a challenging remit to ask for improvement in both the short and long term - and given the obstacles thrown up in his path I think Rangnick is generally doing quite a decent job all things considered. It can't be argued that United have been desperately unlucky over the past few games given the chances created and conceded.

Some fans can't wrap their heads around this, for them the manager is always at fault even if the players aren't implementing the managers strategy/vision.
I really don't understand how people don't realise that this is a two-way street - so many conclude that a manager is or isn't successful without considering the extent to which the team is willing and/or able to buy into the vision (and then furthermore the impact that has on squad building).
 

Teja

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I mean, you're ignoring the fact that there were 2.5 seasons between Conte and Tuchel? So Thiago Silva, Jorginho, Mount, Mendy, Havertz, CHO, James, Chilwell, and Werner all didn't overlap, so any sort of switch is irrelevant?
I really can't do the math here, but if you say none of the current batch of players were influenced / coached by either Sarri or Conte or someone who was generally capable tactically, then I'll take your word for it.

It's probably true for the likes of Mount, CHO, James, Chilwell etc. Not so for Havertz, Silva, Jorginho, Kante etc.

Again, Neville has all but confirmed the leaks suggesting United have a squad almost uniquely unreceptive to coaching. Perhaps Occam's Razor is a more logical explanation than continued excuses. There is a rather famous quote from Einstein about the definition of insanity.
Did he say that they were unreceptive to coaching? I think he just said he knows who the leakers / whiners are - maybe a veiled threat to have them shut up. Don't think he was speaking about the squad in general.

I believe my eyes, I think the play has changed a lot under Rangnick and in general I see players putting in the effort. Just a pure visual test shows every player in the right zone when attacking. Even when pressing, it isn't a blind man marking system, they're in the right zones etc.

Ronaldo is fecking angling his runs and closing down angles when pressing, Bruno was a total headless chicken under Ole and he's become more intelligent when he stays / when he goes. that's all the evidence that I need at least.
 

TheReligion

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Appreciate the vote of confidence! I find it rather bizarre from a (more or less) neutral perspective - I don't think Rangnick is doing too much wrong? It's quite a challenging remit to ask for improvement in both the short and long term - and given the obstacles thrown up in his path I think Rangnick is generally doing quite a decent job all things considered. It can't be argued that United have been desperately unlucky over the past few games given the chances created and conceded.



I really don't understand how people don't realise that this is a two-way street - so many conclude that a manager is or isn't successful without considering the extent to which the team is willing and/or able to buy into the vision (and then furthermore the impact that has on squad building).
Agree with you mate.

People have to remember the job he’s took on. He’s not even been able to bring his own team in as they are all in work so has been forced to cobble something together by his own admission based on availability rather than quality.

The club lost Ole, Carrick and McKenna in the space of a few weeks. It’s pretty huge to fill mid season with no time between fixtures.
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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I really can't do the math here, but if you say none of the current batch of players were influenced / coached by either Sarri or Conte or someone who was generally capable tactically, then I'll take your word for it.

It's probably true for the likes of Mount, CHO, James, Chilwell etc. Not so for Havertz, Silva, Jorginho, Kante etc.
Oh I certainly wouldn't say none because Conte was hugely influential in unlocking some of the potential of Kante, Azpilicueta, Christensen, and Rudiger. But I just don't think that it can be argued that Tuchel had an easier time of taking over at Chelsea due to the roots laid down by Conte when there was a major overhaul of the squad and multiple years of playing a different system in between.

Did he say that they were unreceptive to coaching? I think he just said he knows who the leakers / whiners are - maybe a veiled threat to have them shut up. Don't think he was speaking about the squad in general.

I believe my eyes, I think the play has changed a lot under Rangnick and in general I see players putting in the effort. Just a pure visual test shows every player in the right zone when attacking. Even when pressing, it isn't a blind man marking system, they're in the right zones etc.

Ronaldo is fecking angling his runs and closing down angles when pressing, Bruno was a total headless chicken under Ole and he's become more intelligent when he stays / when he goes. that's all the evidence that I need at least.
He confirmed that there have been players who are dismissive of the coaching; drawing parallels between the current staff and Ted Lasso. I do think there a few bad apples and I don't think this applies to the team as a whole, and so I think generally we agree that Rangnick is doing a good job all things considered?
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Agree with you mate.

People have to remember the job he’s took on. He’s not even been able to bring his own team in as they are all in work so has been forced to cobble something together by his own admission based on availability rather than quality.

The club lost Ole, Carrick and McKenna in the space of a few weeks. It’s pretty huge to fill mid season with no time between fixtures.
And on top of that after he first came in huge swaths of time were lost on the training pitch due to COVID! I actually think United are wise to take a longer view of the situation - having Rangnick installed in a director role giving his feedback to potential managers can only be a good thing, especially when he has first-hand experience with the players at his disposal.
 

Green_Red

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I feel sorry for any coach that has to work with Fred and McTominay, absolute shite.
 

Long Time Red

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Agree with you mate.

People have to remember the job he’s took on. He’s not even been able to bring his own team in as they are all in work so has been forced to cobble something together by his own admission based on availability rather than quality.

The club lost Ole, Carrick and McKenna in the space of a few weeks. It’s pretty huge to fill mid season with no time between fixtures.
Job he took on?

Carrick beat Villareal, drew with Chelsea and beat Arsenal. The ship was well and truly steadied when Rangnick arrived.

I'm not sure we've had one performance so far under RR that was better than the Villareal or Arsenal matches when you factor we've only really played 3 decent teams in West Ham, Wolves and Brighton under him.

I can accept a 50/50 game against Brighton, but to have Brighton come to Old Trafford and dominate us the way they did in the first half should send alarm ringing to anyone paying attention.

That tonight felt a lot like the Atalanta game before the Liverpool game, where Scholes said if we come up against anyone decent it will be 3 or 4 nil at half time.

He could of been talking about this game and everything he said would be correct
 

TheReligion

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Job he took on?

Carrick beat Villareal, drew with Chelsea and beat Arsenal. The ship was well and truly steadied when Rangnick arrived.

I'm not sure we've had one performance so far under RR that was better than the Villareal or Arsenal matches when you factor we've only really played 3 decent teams in West Ham, Wolves and Brighton under him.

I can accept a 50/50 game against Brighton, but to have Brighton come to Old Trafford and dominate us the way they did in the first half should send alarm ringing to anyone paying attention.

That tonight felt a lot like the Atalanta game before the Liverpool game, where Scholes said if we come up against anyone decent it will be 3 or 4 nil at half time.

He could of been talking about this game and everything he said would be correct
The ship was steadied? With no manager?

Do know anything about Brighton? The played Chelsea off the park
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Job he took on?

Carrick beat Villareal, drew with Chelsea and beat Arsenal. The ship was well and truly steadied when Rangnick arrived.

I'm not sure we've had one performance so far under RR that was better than the Villareal or Arsenal matches when you factor we've only really played 3 decent teams in West Ham, Wolves and Brighton under him.

I can accept a 50/50 game against Brighton, but to have Brighton come to Old Trafford and dominate us the way they did in the first half should send alarm ringing to anyone paying attention.

That tonight felt a lot like the Atalanta game before the Liverpool game, where Scholes said if we come up against anyone decent it will be 3 or 4 nil at half time.

He could of been talking about this game and everything he said would be correct
So you genuinely think 3 results equates to being steadied? And that any manager coming into a situation off the back of 3 results should be judged as having a clean slate no matter how many years of mismanagement have led up to that point?

In the event that you are not a literal goldfish then I can't help but chuckle at the irony of your username.
 

reddevilz007

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Because we had a squad that was receptive to Tuchel's methods and the changes he rang in. It doesn't matter how good a coach is if the players are unwilling to listen.
Chelsea has a spine down the middle. We have nothing.
They have great leaders, we have Maguire.
 

santeria13

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What happened to giving managers time to instil their ideas and philosophy into a team? There's definitely been some improvements; we are conceding far less goals than before he came in, whilst also managing to generally increase the amount of chances we create at the same time.

Yes, the pressing is still inconsistent/non-existant but this isn't something that is so simple to implement, never mind mid season and with a squad who are reportedly downing tools(again) and have never been asked to press by any of their managers before. Even Klopp struggled when he first joined Liverpool, and most would agree he's a far superior coach to Rangnick.

Genuinely baffled how harshly he is being criticised already. No we are not playing well but expecting us to go from getting hammered every week, and by teams such as Watford nonetheless, to suddenly playing great every week just isn't going to happen.

It's funny because a lot of the posters jumping on Rangnick are the same ones who would defend Ole despite 3 years of no progress. It can even be argued we went backwards.
 
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TheMagicFoolBus

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Chelsea has a spine down the middle. We have nothing.
They have great leaders, we have Maguire.
I think that's only party true - the season before Tuchel came in partway, we conceded 54 goals which was an atrocious total.

For me the biggest thing is that Tuchel is a genius at identifying the strengths and weaknesses of his players and at putting them into positions to succeed - but the first step was Chelsea's players accepting what he had to say. Ultimately I think the biggest difference is that Chelsea have more selfless players who were willing to adjust and be tactically flexible - just look at the first game under Tuchel vs Wolves with CHO playing wingback for the first time, for instance.
 

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I think they are seeing what Tuchel did with Chelsea in a short space of time, expecting that to be normal.

They need to understand the task of trying to overhaul one of the worst pressing units in the league, which we categorically are, into a competent pressing unit all whilst in midseason.

Pep struggled in his first year. That with a pre-season, 7 signings, and a squad moulded directly for him years in advance.

Rangnick's had none of that here, no pre-season, no signings, a vipers nest of a dressing room who actively try to shift the blame onto the manager instead, whilst inheriting a squad which couldn't be more unsuited for his plans if he tried.

Oh and he's also had to Frankenstein a coaching team together because of his interim status too. He's essentially managing with one arm tied behind his back at best.

Then we've had 5/6 years of zero pressing football. That's also a process to undo how we've been conditioned to play. Jose said the same things when he took over from LVG.

All things considered, I don't know what some people were expecting. I think Rangnick is actually doing terrific so far, and the process is going as expected.
 
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Atheist

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Man, people are in for a real shock when the next manager (Ten Hag or whoever it is) comes in and equally struggles to impose their philosophy. We have systemic problems that are going to take a long time to be fixed. You can’t make gold out of shit.
 

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Job he took on?

Carrick beat Villareal, drew with Chelsea and beat Arsenal. The ship was well and truly steadied when Rangnick arrived.

I'm not sure we've had one performance so far under RR that was better than the Villareal or Arsenal matches when you factor we've only really played 3 decent teams in West Ham, Wolves and Brighton under him.

I can accept a 50/50 game against Brighton, but to have Brighton come to Old Trafford and dominate us the way they did in the first half should send alarm ringing to anyone paying attention.

That tonight felt a lot like the Atalanta game before the Liverpool game, where Scholes said if we come up against anyone decent it will be 3 or 4 nil at half time.

He could of been talking about this game and everything he said would be correct
How come Conte hasn't turned Spurs into a top team yet? He must be a rubbish coach too?

Repeat after me; the hard work Rangnick is doing will be shown next season, not now. x100.
 

Abraxas

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I think Ralf has an awkward situation in that as a coach he is clearly wedded to pressing. That's his whole concept of football, that's what his reputation is built on, every interview and piece of footage prior to his arrival emphasises that point. So now it looks as if he's realised we don't have the personnel, fitness, mentality to do that for 90 mins. We do it in spots but no way near with the consistency and quality required. It's hard to imagine the coaching of a press is poor, I don't buy that whatsoever. Why would everybody that admires RR be spouting bollocks. He may not be a top tier coach in winning things but he is renowned for coaching.

So I'm guessing he is trying to adjust that slightly, looking at the game today. It didn't work at all but something looked a bit different. Could just be a half arsed effort, but we seemed to noticeably sit off. So maybe his idea now is to pick his moments to get into the team and press high, that's my assumption.

I get the impression Ralf is a bit of an ideologue so it's a weird situation to have a manager that seems in contradiction of the players abilities on a short term results orientated contract. But then again, would any style of manager work with this lot? I guess we have to hope we can bundle over the line.
 

Greck

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Are people joking? They think we look poorly coached? Please tell me you've been watching another team. We looked very organized for a team that just changed a month ago. Very very organized. Can someone already make a damn compilation of our best transition plays since Ralf took over. The way we get the ball from back to front and pass out of pressure.

Even our pressing has taken a huge leap and is a lot more organised. Tonight was our first goal resulting from high pressure, players finally stopped wasting them. Surely this is just a revenge bump for Ole's cause because it has no actual grounding in reality. The parts of the team that are failing are players Ralf would never have bought.
 

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I think Ralf has an awkward situation in that as a coach he is clearly wedded to pressing. That's his whole concept of football, that's what his reputation is built on, every interview and piece of footage prior to his arrival emphasises that point. So now it looks as if he's realised we don't have the personnel, fitness, mentality to do that for 90 mins. We do it in spots but no way near with the consistency and quality required. It's hard to imagine the coaching of a press is poor, I don't buy that whatsoever. Why would everybody that admires RR be spouting bollocks. He may not be a top tier coach in winning things but he is renowned for coaching.

So I'm guessing he is trying to adjust that slightly, looking at the game today. It didn't work at all but something looked a bit different. Could just be a half arsed effort, but we seemed to noticeably sit off. So maybe his idea now is to pick his moments to get into the team and press high, that's my assumption.

I get the impression Ralf is a bit of an ideologue so it's a weird situation to have a manager that seems in contradiction of the players abilities on a short term results orientated contract. But then again, would any style of manager work with this lot? I guess we have to hope we can bundle over the line.
I agree with your observations about today's game. I think he might have realised that it's a bit of a losing game to get them to press for 90 mins at their current level. We were clever and picked our moments to press much more.

Doing a press poorly can be worse than not doing it at all, especially when tired (Southampton). Also when Brighton are so well versed with it, observed our match with Southampton, and will come expecting the press ready to counter any gaps we present. So a bit of that I would guess.

I don't think his contract is results orientated. We've been told that Ralf has been brought in by the club, to speed up the bedding in process, in order to lay the foundations for a modern pressing game for the next manager in the summer, whilst also evaluating the players in the process, ready for his move upstairs in assisting the next manager.

This makes huge sense. Pressing football has been an alien concept to us for at least the past 5/6 years, so bringing in someone like ten Hag in the summer without this bedding in process would be worthless.

We've seen it with Rangnick, he wouldn't be able to implement his ideas properly until the following season realistically. It also cuts out the time evaluating players before removing as Rangnick would have done the work already (his time now).

Where it gets a bit confusing, is that Ralf in his first press conference here, said he might advise the club to stick with him instead as manager next season too if the right manager isn't available, as he done the same thing at Leipzig.
 

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This is unacceptably bad.

Give Potter a few weeks and he'd do heck of a lot better than what's been served up in this half of football.

Heck of a lot better.
Come on. Pep finished 4th his first season and Klopp took 4 seasons before winning anything and look at them now.

If it was just a case of giving tactical instructions any idiot could do it