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Westminster Politics
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He'd definitely get through to judges houses with a sob story like that.
What I don't understand is why, with the government amendment, there would have been 3 separate votes (original SNP text, government amendment, Labour amendment) but once the government amendment was withdrawn the only vote was on the Labour amendment. That seems very strange from a procedural point of view.
It also seems strange that Labour is essentially allowed to gazump the SNP on the SNP's opposition day. What is the point of allotting an opposition day to the SNP if one could theoretically table an amendment replacing the entire text of whatever the SNP put forward and then only having a debate and vote on that amendment? Seems ridiculous.
It also seems strange that Labour is essentially allowed to gazump the SNP on the SNP's opposition day. What is the point of allotting an opposition day to the SNP if one could theoretically table an amendment replacing the entire text of whatever the SNP put forward and then only having a debate and vote on that amendment? Seems ridiculous.
The PA news agency takes a look at what happened on one of the chamber’s most heated days since the Brexit debates of 2016 to 2020.
– What was expected to happen on Wednesday?
Section 31 (2) explains that when the Government tables an amendment to an Opposition Day Debate motion, the original words of the motion will be voted upon first and if rejected then the Government’s alternative wording will be put to a vote.
The expectation therefore was that the Government amendment to the SNP motion would be selected for debate with both being voted on.
– What did the Speaker do?
Sir Lindsay said he wanted MPs to consider the “widest possible range of options” and announced at the start of Wednesday’s debates that he would be selecting both the Labour amendment and the Government amendment.
He acknowledged this was an exceptional move and this provoked uproar in the chamber, with Conservative former minister Sir Desmond Swayne lampooning the Speaker by shouting “bring back Bercow!” – a nod to the previous Speaker John Bercow, whose controversial tenure concluded with the Brexit wars.
Sir Lindsay also faced shouts of resign and “shame” from the SNP and Conservative benches.
– Why was the Speaker’s decision an issue for many MPs?
The SNP have up to three days on which, as the second largest opposition party, they can lead debates. The selection of the amendments by the Speaker led them to argue they were being denied an opportunity to have a vote on their motion – given that Labour’s amendment would be voted on first and sought to change its content.
Claims also circulated that Sir Lindsay had bowed to pressure from Labour to select their amendment, something that was denied.
Commons Leader Penny Mordaunt accused Sir Lindsay of having “hijacked” the debate and said it had become a “political row within the Labour Party”, adding: “Regrettably Mr Speaker has inserted himself into that row with today’s decision and undermined the confidence of this House in being able to rely on its long-established standing orders to govern its debates.”
– Did anyone else question the decision?
Sir Lindsay was warned by House of Commons Clerk Tom Goldsmith about the unprecedented nature of his decision ahead of the clash with MPs, with the senior official saying he felt “compelled to point out that long-established conventions are not being followed in this case”.
The clerk is the chief adviser to the House on matters of parliamentary procedure, privilege and broader constitutional issues.
– What happened next?
Once tempers had calmed after the Speaker’s initial decision, an actual debate took place in the House of Commons. Shortly after 6pm and after the SNP frontbench had finished their speech to wind up the debate, Mordaunt made a point of order on behalf of the Government.
It was at this point she attacked the Speaker’s handling of the matter and suggested the Government would take no part in votes linked to the motion.
As Deputy Speaker Dame Rosie Winterton tried to move towards holding the votes, further points of order were raised during heated exchanges.
Flynn repeatedly demanded to know the whereabouts of the Speaker before SNP MPs and several Conservative MPs walked out of the chamber in an apparent protest at the handling of matters.
It was understood that SNP MPs headed to the voting lobby in anticipation of voting in favour of calls for a ceasefire.
– So they had a vote?
Further points of order continued to be raised, with Conservative MP William Wragg asking if ministers could sign his no confidence motion in the Speaker and Dame Rosie denying claims that Sir Lindsay selected Labour’s amendment amid threats from the party that they would “bring him down” should they win the election.
A vote then took place when Wragg rose to ask that the House sat in private. This was defeated but was interpreted by some as a time-wasting ruse in the belief that if the clock ticked past 7pm – the moment of interruption for the day – that no other votes could take place.
Deputy Speaker Dame Rosie later said advice had been taken and the vote on the Labour amendment was required to take place regardless of the timing.
If MPs had decided the House should sit in private, the galleries would have been cleared and the broadcast feed would have ceased.
– OK, so at this point there was a vote on the actual debate?
Yes. Labour’s amendment pushing for an immediate Gaza ceasefire was approved by the Commons without a formal vote being called.
The Deputy Speaker ruled that it had been approved on the shouts of MPs. Conservative former minister Sir Jacob Rees-Mogg later challenged this ruling and said: “It is absolutely extraordinary that that noise level was deemed to be ‘aye’.”
Some MPs were left frustrated that a formal vote did not take place, with many wanting to place on record their decision and show their constituents they had supported a ceasefire.
– And how did the Speaker respond to events?
Sir Lindsay returned to the chair once Labour’s amendment had been approved. He apologised to the Commons amid shouts of “resign” from some MPs.
He said he was “very, very concerned about the security” of all MPs, adding: “I wanted all to ensure they could express their views and all sides of the House could vote. As it was, in particular the SNP were ultimately unable to vote on their proposition.
“I am, and I regret… with my sadness, that it’s ended up… in this position. That was never my intention for it to end like this. I was absolutely convinced that the decision was done with the right intentions. I recognise the strength of feeling of members on this issue.”
Sir Lindsay also denied meeting Labour adviser Sue Gray on Wednesday.
– How did MPs respond to the apology?
The SNP’s Mr Flynn said he would take significant convincing that the Speaker’s position was “not now intolerable” and claimed his party had been treated with contempt.
Sir Lindsay has offered to meet Mr Flynn and other key players to discuss the matter.
– What is the impact of Labour’s amendment being agreed?
Opposition Day Debate motions are non-binding on the Government. But on matters such as this they at least signal the feeling of the House of Commons. What was clear from the debate is MPs from all sides want to see an end to the violence in the Hamas-Israel conflict, although they disagree on how best to achieve this.
– What happens next?
It is unlikely the Speaker has heard the last of Wednesday’s events and business questions on Thursday may be another occasion when Mordaunt and others consider the matter further.
The fecking state of these tweets.
They never seem keen to explain which bit of the SNP's original motion Starmer found so awful he couldn't show their oh so desired 'cross-party support' for it.
So on this reading it wasn't so much Hoyle accepting the Labour amendment that prevented the naked SNP motion from being voted on, but the withdrawal of the government's amendment by the Conservative Party. Is that right? I'm still confused though. Just because an amendment is proposed by another opposition party instead of the government shouldn't change the procedural order so radically. Surely precedence should still be given to the party who's opposition day it is. Strikes me that because this was such an unusual decision by the speaker such an occurrence was't legislated for and so convention dictated the house fall back on some set of standard (non opposition day) procedures.
It really does feel like the SNP was short changed.
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Nah, it seems they tried to make this motion about politics, got caught out and now are throwing their toys out the pram.
The Tories is seems also know they couldn't do anything so upped and left.
As not someone playing politics, which bit of blocking aid, food, fuel and water into an entire population do you not consider collective punishment? Which bit of bombing civilian areas and refugee camps do you not consider collective punishment? How high up the Hamas totem pole do you think Hind Rajab was prior to her death?
What part of Starmer wanting to remove the part of the SNP motion describing such things (and things he said Israel has the right to do) as collective punishment and going to the lengths of visiting the speaker personally to ensure that happens is not 'playing politics'?
So let me get this straight: no call for ceasefire from Tories or Labour, right? And the people bringing any semblance of ceasefire were poo pooed out? Right. Gotcha. Let me find my surprised mask. Genocidal cnuts.
This doesn't seem correct but I've thought about it a fair bit and I remain very uncertain. You seem very certain, but that just makes me think you haven't given this very much thought.
No. Hoyle should have chosen the SNP one, but chose Labour. The Government withdrew their motion in protest. The SNP were shafted here after Labour MPs lobbied the Speaker that their safety would be at risk if the SNP amendment was chosen.
You know, the party of Jo Cox obliquely alluding to what happened to Jo Cox if Starmer wasn't removed from this political jam.
When did Hoyle remove the SNP motion?
I don't get the 'security of MPs' thing. Are they saying parliament should surrender to threats from the public? What sort of precedent is that?
No polonium threats to MPs when they passed motions against Russia left, right and fecking centre. Genocidal Labour and Tory cnuts.
The reason I'm not on the same page here is something that the Deputy Speaker said when I was listening. I've just gone back in the broadcast to about 18:15 or so and she says the following in response to the SNP's point of order:
I understood the "three votes" to be the SNP motion and the two amendments. Clear as mud to me.Dame Rosie Winterton said:
Frosty was incorrect is all. The Speaker did not disallow the SNP motion. The controversy is that he allowed the Labour amendment to that motion to be tabled.
If Labour hadn't tabled their amendment the government would have continued with their own amendment. The SNP motion would have been unlikely to pass unamended.
Hoyle should resign. The chicanery of Starmer smells like someone pulled back Johnson's hood.
Surely The Speakers position is untenable now
Hoyle is a disgrace. Its bad enough he went on a sponsored trip to Israel (deeply inappropriate for a speaker), and now this. He should be removed as speaker.
Starmer is just a cnut, but he's got away with it. Hopefully the voters who care deeply about this issue don't forget it come the polls.
Starmer is just a cnut, but he's got away with it. Hopefully the voters who care deeply about this issue don't forget it come the polls.
Of course, if the Speaker hadn't selected the Labour amendment, the SNP motion simply wouldn't have passed and there wouldn't be a record of Parliament wanting a ceasefire.
Sole intention was to focus on Labour, rather than get any votes for the ceasefireThe fecking state of these tweets.
They never seem keen to explain which bit of the SNP's original motion Starmer found so awful he couldn't show their oh so desired 'cross-party support' for it.
This is Labour's equivalent to The Conservative's prorogation of parliament. It's shameful. They're an absolute disgrace.
I recognise politicians making political points quite well tbhThis doesn't seem correct but I've thought about it a fair bit and I remain very uncertain. You seem very certain, but that just makes me think you haven't given this very much thought.
Farcical take.
Maybe they should face some uncomfortable truths rather than defile democracy.
Incorrect, by some distance.
Parliament has called for a ceasefire. That's on record.
If only British politicians showed as much passion for internal matters.
Good lord. Allow a party to use a ceasefire as cause to snipe at political opponents, knowing their amendments will never pass, so they're proposing this solely to try and attack labour. It backfired on them but a ceasefire notion was recorded in parliament.
Apparently only partial recognition since you fall for basic Labour party spin without due consideration of the politicking they've also been involved in today. I dunno man. Seems like manipulating the Speaker to undermine Commons rules should be frowned upon.
He went against 30 odd year precedent that opposition day motions get voted on first (introduced for this very reason) and that's your take
If denouncing Israels collective punishment of Palestinians meant the SNP motion didn't pass then the record would reflect the position of the MPs. Something Starmer was too scared to see through.
The only reason there was the chance for a ceasefire motion in the first place was the SNP giving over one of their own opposition days for its consideration.
They got a handful of opposition days a year to table what they want. You don't get to override that because it's politically inconvenient.
Yes, that's my take. I would rather a vote for a ceasefire passed than didn't. Even if I didn't get everything I wanted. I imagine others have their own motivations for wishing otherwise.He went against 30 odd year precedent that opposition day motions get voted on first (introduced for this very reason) and that's your take
If denouncing Israels collective punishment of Palestinians meant the SNP motion didn't pass then the record would reflect the position of the MPs. Something Starmer was too scared to see through.
Our Parliament is a touch older than 30 years old, I imagine it will survive today's events.
Ok, but I'm still not comfortable that a vote wasn't held on the original motion tabled by the SNP before the Labour amendment was moved. That this motion might have been politically uncomfortable for members of the Labour Party isn't sufficient reason for me to completely shut off a party motion on their opposition day. Had this happened, the SNP motion would have been debated, defeated and the Labour Party amendment still been given its chance to pass.
What did anyone get exactly? I think you're a bit confused these votes are just motions they don't force the government to do anything.
They're for the opposition (of the day) to put a statement in front of the house, for MPs to declare their positions publically and then the government respond via their amendment. That's it.
All Labour has done is fail to use it's own opportunities to table a ceasefire motion (for which its had plenty of chances) so it could deny another party their right. Why? Because it's politically inconvenient.
You may as well be suggesting the Tories don't bother with opposition days because why bother if the opposition don't have the numbers as the smaller party. You'll probably clap along if Labour actually do that in power.
We got a motion confirming that the will of Parliament is for there to be a ceasefire. That's preferable to not having that on record, otherwise there would have been little point in raising the motion.