Westminster Politics

[Walrus]

Starmer and Labour are twats, but they at least appear to have the interests of the country at heart rather than the blatant cronyism, corruption and self-destruction of the tories.

#1 priority right now simply has to be to get rid of the tories, otherwise it’s just rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Once they are gone, it’s time to start holding Starmer to account and push for more progressive policies.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

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Kemi Badenoch is the UK Secretary of State for Business and Trade.

A spokesperson for Badenoch yesterday told The Journal: “We fully support freedom of speech, but it’s hardly surprising that we don’t want to hand out UK taxpayers’ money to people that oppose the United Kingdom itself.”

The issue was also raised today by SDLP leader and MP for Foyle Colum Eastwood.

Eastwood said he today “submitted Parliamentary Questions about the decision to defund artists in the North on the basis of their constitutional aspirations”.

He said it is “highly irregular for a Secretary of State to intervene to overturn the decision of an independent assessment board to award funding to an artist on the basis of their political aspirations”.

He added: “It would be unacceptable if the British Government had instituted a policy of defunding groups because they support Irish Unity, Scottish Independence, Welsh Independence or any other change to the constitutional status quo.”

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This one could be fun to follow. Kneecap are likely to get more and more high profile too.

Kneecap has gained acclaim for their blend of Irish and English rap about the realities of growing up in post-Troubles Belfast. Last month, a film dramatising its rise to fame – and starring Michael Fassbender – became the first Irish language film ever to premiere at the Sundance Film Festival and later won an Audience Award.

https://www.thejournal.ie/kneecap-win-audience-award-sundance-6283072-Jan2024/

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Starmer and Labour are twats, but they at least appear to have the interests of the country at heart rather than the blatant cronyism, corruption and self-destruction of the tories.

#1 priority right now simply has to be to get rid of the tories, otherwise it’s just rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Once they are gone, it’s time to start holding Starmer to account and push for more progressive policies.

The Tories need to be pummelled into becoming a fringe party

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Starmer and Labour are twats, but they at least appear to have the interests of the country at heart rather than the blatant cronyism, corruption and self-destruction of the tories.

#1 priority right now simply has to be to get rid of the tories, otherwise it’s just rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic. Once they are gone, it’s time to start holding Starmer to account and push for more progressive policies.

I actually think the left's anger helps Labour because it makes their right of centre framings appear more genuine to untrusting but angry one nation Tories. Your first sentence is why the vast majority of their left wing base will still probably end up voting for them; with the caveat that "interests of the country at heart" is more debatable than I'd like.

 

[Ady87]

Vote Starmer, destroy this current crop of Conservatives, then worry about holding Starmer to account.

Continuing to vote Tory at this point is mental after the last 14 years. They offer nothing positive. Loads of leader changes, corruption, infighting etc - I’m done with it.

 

[Pexbo]

Vote Starmer, destroy this current crop of Conservatives, then worry about holding Starmer to account.

Continuing to vote Tory at this point is mental after the last 14 years. They offer nothing positive. Loads of leader changes, corruption, infighting etc - I’m done with it.

Or vote in Starmer. Have 3-4 years of non-action while the media blame Labour for everything the Tories did in the previous 14 years and the next general election all is forgiven and forgotten and the same Tory party get in with another super majority on an anti-immigration / low tax platform.

 

[Vernon Philander]

How is the picture getting worse every day? Just the debt, or other things?

Like @Don't Kill Bill was outlining above, the number of things that have been and continue to fall apart is long and growing every day. He can't see an end to it, neither can I.

The essential difference is not between "stubborn idealists" or "ideological puritanicals" and the self styled "Very Practical Men Club" but between those who think we should kick this can even further down the road in order to service our debts (You, Don't Kill Bill, @Jericholyte2, the Tories, Labour) and those who think that if we don't start to invest in stuff now an even bigger reckoning will be due later.

Let’s say I agree with you and that it’s a mistake not to invest in these areas.

How do we get realistic action?

Infighting on the Left, hampering the Starmer front and leaving the door slightly open for 5 more years of Sunak and co. Or, get behind the only other party that can win and actually has a good chance on acting on the areas of similar interest. Voting Green etc won’t further the cause under FPTP.

Giving the Tories a sniff at more power is literally kicking the can down the road, in my opinion.

 

[Smores]

The Tories are leaving nothing left for future spend (or less than nothing if you take the OBRs damning indictment).

Why are stubborn idealists still bleating on about broken pledges and promises. The picture is getting worse every day, it would be madness to ignore that.

Labour also can’t ignore they’d be pounced upon if they stood their ground on the pledge, given their other opposing key pledge of fiscal prudence. Let them finish the job of being elected and then apply pressure if you wish on these (very critical) areas.

I'll repeat what I've said to others but you're taking a narrow view of the issue, the OBR is quite clear in it's reports that the cost of delaying net zero impacts future finances negatively and that undermines our ability to control debt. Why you lot keep ignoring this is beyond me.

Like everyone our R-G is bad right now such is the change in the global economy and interest rates. However the economic risks require mitigation and they don't disappear because of politically driven fiscal management. The IMF and OBR are predicting a better R-G and increased slack in economies, 28 billion a year is nothing in that context (see increased defence spending) and supports the growth part of the R-G measure.

We need to spend wisely if we're to limit (not stop) debt growth and that starts with measures that have the best long term outcomes for public finances.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Let’s say I agree with you and that it’s a mistake not to invest in these areas.

How do we get realistic action?

Infighting on the Left, hampering the Starmer front and leaving the door slightly open for 5 more years of Sunak and co. Or, get behind the only other party that can win and actually has a good chance on acting on the areas of similar interest. Voting Green etc won’t further the cause under FPTP.

Giving the Tories a sniff at more power is literally kicking the can down the road, in my opinion.

I've sort of given my opinion of this in my reply to @Walrus above. I think the vast majority of the left will be dragged along kicking and screaming (I will) precisely because the Tories are so fecking terrible. I also think that Labour's right of centre bona fide's are enhanced via left wing criticism. Labour were fine in the polls before the latest U turn. I think they'll be just as fine after it. Hatred of this current crop of Tories is endemic, and that hatred means that the bounds for acceptable opposition policies are probably pretty elastic. There was no pressing electoral need for the latest U-turn. If, at some point, Starmer leads his party so far to the right that he starts haemorrhaging left wing support then the fault lies more with him than with the left wingers he increasingly abandons.

As to how we get realistic action. I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that patient silence married to hoping hard enough isn't going to get it done. I'd like to see more concrete plans and a framework of investment presented that highlights both the costs and projected benefits. There's some half decent economic analyses of the benefits of free school meals knocking about. Those are reasonable models for evaluating policies and couching the benefits of social investment in economic terms. This sort of analysis should have been expanded a while ago: This is the policy>This is the method of implementation>This is the cost>This is the expected economic benefit. Analyses of the costs of failing to invest should be highlighted and presented in a similar manner. There's plenty of highly visible projections for future debt repayments, but fewer that analyse the future costs of today's underinvestment. I think redressing this imbalance in reporting and analysis would go a long way to spurring greater action.

I wouldn't be as mad if this money Labour are saving from reneging on their Green Pledge is earmarked for investment elsewhere, but it's not. The entire schtick seems to be to tap a big red sign that says "fiscal rules" while surreptitiously shoving the "social costs" sign in a drawer.

 

[Jericholyte2]

How is the picture getting worse every day? Just the debt, or other things?

Like @Don't Kill Bill was outlining above, the number of things that have been and continue to fall apart is long and growing every day. He can't see an end to it, neither can I.

The essential difference is not between "stubborn idealists" or "ideological puritanicals" and the self styled "Very Practical Men Club" but between those who think we should kick this can even further down the road in order to service our debts (You, Don't Kill Bill, @Jericholyte2, the Tories, Labour) and those who think that if we don't start to invest in stuff now an even bigger reckoning will be due later.

I swear if you’d grouped me in with the Tories in person…!

I want a green revolution, I’m on anti-depressants in part because of the climate crisis, I want something for my 20 month old daughter who has DS to be able to manage for her lifetime, so don’t think for one single second that I’m not gutted about their decision.

But I also know that we have to start somewhere. Labour’s watered-down version is still a distance away from Tory policy of opening more deep sea drilling and coal production.

There has to be a transition (albeit it should have started 30yrs ago) but I’ll take a slow start over sticking my head in the sand, especially when, if you check some of my earlier posts, you see just how broken this country is.

 

[Buster15]

I swear if you’d grouped me in with the Tories in person…!

I want a green revolution, I’m on anti-depressants in part because of the climate crisis, I want something for my 20 month old daughter who has DS to be able to manage for her lifetime, so don’t think for one single second that I’m not gutted about their decision.

But I also know that we have to start somewhere. Labour’s watered-down version is still a distance away from Tory policy of opening more deep sea drilling and coal production.

There has to be a transition (albeit it should have started 30yrs ago) but I’ll take a slow start over sticking my head in the sand, especially when, if you check some of my earlier posts, you see just how broken this country is.

Great post and my very best wishes for both you and your family.
I have 5 young grandchildren. And I also am concerned about the type of planet they will grow up in.
Part of me is optimistic because I am an optimist. That part believes that human ingenuity will be able to solve the climate emergency.

The other part believes it is already too late and global warming is accelerating out of control.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

I swear if you’d grouped me in with the Tories in person…!

I want a green revolution, I’m on anti-depressants in part because of the climate crisis, I want something for my 20 month old daughter who has DS to be able to manage for her lifetime, so don’t think for one single second that I’m not gutted about their decision.

But I also know that we have to start somewhere. Labour’s watered-down version is still a distance away from Tory policy of opening more deep sea drilling and coal production.

There has to be a transition (albeit it should have started 30yrs ago) but I’ll take a slow start over sticking my head in the sand, especially when, if you check some of my earlier posts, you see just how broken this country is.

Yeah I hear you, it is still comparatively better than the Tories but it's an ever dwindling gap which, in my opinion at least, is going to lead to an ever bleaker future.

I think the main fault line here is over the difference between necessary sacrifice and unnecessary capitulation. You and I both think that it is necessary to sacrifice what we consider core principles to kick out the Tories. Fair enough, that's common ground, but there's a point at which you're being asked to give too much even if you're willing to give it. I'd die to save my kids but I don't think it's reasonable to demand my life if all that's needed is my kidney. I think we're past the point of electoral expedience here and fast approaching an ideological realignment of the Labour party to right of centre American democrats.

I agree that we have to start somewhere and there has to be a transition. My fear, ever growing, is that the transition isn't so much between Conservative > Labour as names over the door but the transition Labour>Tory in principles under the floor.

 

[Maticmaker]

As to how we get realistic action. I don't know. I'm pretty sure, though, that patient silence married to hoping hard enough isn't going to get it done.

First you have to get Labour in power with a majority that means it can move mountains, then give them time to address the problems realistically. To turn the good ship UK around, or merely to avoid the rocks (Climate, Energy, Water and Migration) in the future, is going to take three terms... at least
Last time when Labour was in a three term government with Blair and Brown, some things got done, but not a lot, Blair and Brown crossed swords and this bled Labour internally, mainly because both had differing views about how to get things done. Starmer can't afford that luxury, at the moment he seems to have his troops in the expected shadow cabinet, four square behind him.
It's now or never for Labour and for the future of the millions of ordinary folk in this country, your children, grandchildren and possibly your great grandchildren will never forgive you if you 'ba**'s it up again with internal 'left v right' machinations... this is not the time to take your ball home, because the ref appears to have missed a stone-wall penalty.

 

[Sweet Square]

It’s difficult though because as bad as the labour policies are, the conservatives are much worse and a vote for anyone but labour feels like a waste

I understand the people who will be reluctantly voting Labour as it’s a two party system or have a good local Labour MP. It’s the others who are now really into defending austerity policies and water down climate pledges that I don’t get.

The Greens lost an employment tribunal bought by Shahrar Ali, who was removed as a spokesperson for his 'gender critical' views: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68250071.

Expect them to become a more hostile space for the trans community going forward.

Thanks. I had no idea about this. A depressing read

At the moment I am just not going to vote.

Same. My current Election Day plans are

 

[Flying high]

Vote Starmer and reward the stitching-up of the left.

If I thought the tories had a chance of winning, then I might reluctantly vote labour. But the tories will get far fewer votes than last time, that much is certain. If labour win with a massive majority, then where's the incentive for them to ever put forward a left-ish manifesto again? They already think they're being 'grown up' by ditching investment, when in reality such investments are the only sensible solution to not only the climate crisis, but the general downturn this country has seen over the last 20 years.

Voting green may be little more than symbolic. They aren't a party equipped to hold many seats even if they somehow won a few dozen. But at some point we have to move away from the 2 party stranglehold, and at least a vote for them is a vote closer to my ideals and, in some small way at least, gives them extra clout going forward.

 

[That'sHernandez]

I understand the people who will be reluctantly voting Labour as it’s a two party system or have a good local Labour MP. It’s the others who are now really into defending austerity policies and water down climate pledges that I don’t get.

Thankfully I have a decent local MP, which has made voting labour for me much easier to reconcile since 2015.

What I just don’t get is, truly, for the first time in the last 14 years the electorate seems sick to their back teeth of the Tory government and yet the Labour party’s strategy is to be the Tory government

 

[Drainy]

Thankfully I have a decent local MP, which has made voting labour for me much easier to reconcile since 2015.

What I just don’t get is, truly, for the first time in the last 14 years the electorate seems sick to their back teeth of the Tory government and yet the Labour party’s strategy is to be the Tory government

I moved to one of the Labour areas that went Tory in the last election. The local Tory MP is involved in gay conversation therapy so pretty motivated to vote Labour

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The problem with Labour was choosing the wrong leader at a crucial time. There's one window of opportunity and this is it.
But the British electorate seem to like choosing weak leaders and proven liars.
What a waste.

 

[Drainy]

Vote Starmer and reward the stitching-up of the left.

If I thought the tories had a chance of winning, then I might reluctantly vote labour. But the tories will get far fewer votes than last time, that much is certain. If labour win with a massive majority, then where's the incentive for them to ever put forward a left-ish manifesto again? They already think they're being 'grown up' by ditching investment, when in reality such investments are the only sensible solution to not only the climate crisis, but the general downturn this country has seen over the last 20 years.

Voting green may be little more than symbolic. They aren't a party equipped to hold many seats even if they somehow won a few dozen. But at some point we have to move away from the 2 party stranglehold, and at least a vote for them is a vote closer to my ideals and, in some small way at least, gives them extra clout going forward.

It's the same conundrum as the US. If you're in a competitive area vote responsibly, if you are in a safe seat you can do a protest vote by voting green. If the greens end up winning that seat they have a voice in parliament, and if there is a hung parliament will potentially get concessions to supply confidence.

 

[Sweet Square]

What I just don’t get is, truly, for the first time in the last 14 years the electorate seems sick to their back teeth of the Tory government and yet the Labour party’s strategy is to be the Tory government

I think many of them are just right wingers. Starmer lied during the leadership(His campaign was getting backed by all sorts of right forces)and even Starmer career before was pretty telling. The guy is a knighted sir who upheld the decision not to prosecute the officers that killed Jean Charles de Menaces. And large sections of the PLP spent the Corbyn years getting to get him and left wing labour members.

With these people in charge of the party left wing policy was and is never going to be implemented imo.

 

[Flying high]

It's the same conundrum as the US. If you're in a competitive area vote responsibly, if you are in a safe seat you can do a protest vote by voting green. If the greens end up winning that seat they have a voice in parliament, and if there is a hung parliament will potentially get concessions to supply confidence.

Well, I am in a competitive area. It's been labour for many years but, due to boundary changes and brexit, it flipped to tory recently. I'm still confident it will flip back to labour this time. If it doesn't, then so be it. This version of labour don't deserve a huge majority. If they spend 5 years courting the right wing vote and I still vote for them, then more fool me.

 

[Drainy]

Well, I am in a competitive area. It's been labour for many years but, due to boundary changes and brexit, it flipped to tory recently. I'm still confident it will flip back to labour this time. If it doesn't, then so be it. This version of labour don't deserve a huge majority. If they spend 5 years courting the right wing vote and I still vote for them, then more fool me.

And if the Tories win then they have already committed to further public service cuts to fund tax breaks for higher earners so unless you are earning a decent wack will suck to be you, and god knows how far they will take the piss going forward

 

[Flying high]

And if the Tories win then they have already committed to further public service cuts to fund tax breaks for higher earners so unless you are earning a decent wack will suck to be you, and god knows how far they will take the piss going forward

That's the gamble, yes. But it's one labour are taking by moving so far to the right.

 

[Jericholyte2]

I understand the people who will be reluctantly voting Labour as it’s a two party system or have a good local Labour MP. It’s the others who are now really into defending austerity policies and water down climate pledges that I don’t get.



Thanks. I had no idea about this. A depressing read

Same. My current Election Day plans are

I seriously don’t get what you don’t get…given the choice in a two-Party system I’ll choose a watered down climate policy over one that denies climate change exists (see 30p Lee Anderthal and the fact that Sunak will be appearing on a TV station that happily hosts climate change deniers).

What I want from this country is far away from what either Party is offering, but then we enter the ‘Taxi vs Public Transport’ theory about political parties…

 

[Drainy]

That's the gamble, yes. But it's one labour are taking by moving so far to the right.

If you are talking fiscal policy, they are literally being driven by financial realities, as has been explained probably a dozen times in the thread.

They have said they want to spend more on public services when the economy allows it. The Tories don't believe in providing public services. That's the vote.

 

[Sweet Square]

Ed Miliband is good example of the average Labour member.

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A nice guy who wants nice things but is continuously getting duped and humiliated on a daily basis.

 

[RedChip]

The last few pags of economic arguments and counter arguments have been quite interesting. I kind of see both sides. I wonder though, what if the last 14 years of Tory rule have broken the UK public services AND finances badly enough that it can't be fixed? That is it cannot borrow enough to fix the structural issues?

 

[Jericholyte2]

The last few pags of economic arguments and counter arguments has been quite interesting. I kind of see both sides. I wonder though, what if the last 14 years of Tory rule have broken the UK public services AND finances badly enough that it can't be fixed? That is it cannot borrow enough to fix the structural issues?

I think we’re actually well past that point.

The work needed to repair the various systems (public sector, transport, energy, housing, infrastructure just to name a few) will take decades and trillions to do, even assuming that the consistent political will to do it is there.

I don’t see how, barring a major economic revolution, it can realistically happen.

 

[Drainy]

The last few pags of economic arguments and counter arguments has been quite interesting. I kind of see both sides. I wonder though, what if the last 14 years of Tory rule have broken the UK public services AND finances badly enough that it can't be fixed? That is it cannot borrow enough to fix the structural issues?

It can borrow but will need a convincing plan for how it will be paid back. Investment has a return so some of this can be offset in a way that Truss' tax cuts cannot but our trading position and inflation are squeezing the scope of public financing options.

My view is that Labour want a closer trading relationship with Europe, and shift the tax burden back towards people who can afford it, and that will stimulate growth and lower debt to GDP making financing easier and they can cut their cloth accordingly once things improve.

 

[Mogget]

Well the unfortunate reality of our political system is that only two Parties have a shot of forming a government. We can wish for PR until we’re blue in the face but the reality is the Green Party can essentially put whatever it wants in its Manifesto, because it’ll never have to act on it.

As much as I pray for a green revolution and for Capitalism to collapse, the Greens have only ever had 1 MP. So I can vote with my philosophical heart and go Green, and watch as Sunak sneaks back to No10 for 5 more years of Rwanda, Culture Wars, crumbling schools, public sector strikes, child poverty increases, rise in food & warm banks…

Or I can vote for the only other Party with a viable chance of taking power, with the knowledge that efforts will be made to improve things. Even is that is only minute, it simply HAS to be better than what we have now!

Then we can start putting pressure on Labour to do things, when they’re actually in power and CAN do things.

You're going to pray for capitalism to collapse whilst voting for Keir Starmer.

We're fecked.

 

[Jericholyte2]

You're going to pray for capitalism to collapse whilst voting for Keir Starmer.

We're fecked.

Yes because, as I’ve said countless times, voting isn’t like getting a taxi, it’s like getting on a bus. It’s never going to drop you off exactly where you want to go but you have to start with (a) a bus that has a running engine and (b) one that’s heading closer to the one you’re currently stuck on.

 

[Mogget]

Yes because, as I’ve said countless times, voting isn’t like getting a taxi, it’s like getting on a bus. It’s never going to drop you off exactly where you want to go but you have to start with (a) a bus that has a running engine and (b) one that’s heading closer to the one you’re currently stuck on.

Maybe I'm just incredibly naive but I don't think capitalism is going to collapse by us voting. Especially not voting for an establishment stooge like Starmer.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The last few pags of economic arguments and counter arguments have been quite interesting. I kind of see both sides. I wonder though, what if the last 14 years of Tory rule have broken the UK public services AND finances badly enough that it can't be fixed? That is it cannot borrow enough to fix the structural issues?

It can borrow if there's something concrete at the end of the line. The problem is that even if Starmer stuck to what he pledged, it wouldn't be enough because he doesn't understand what the problems are.

So all that is left now is that people hope that Starmer is lying again just to dupe people to vote for him. But then what?

If and when he gets in what happens then. The effects of Brexit have barely started and are guaranteed to get worse. There's no new renegotiating of Brexit as he thinks.

 

[Jericholyte2]

Maybe I'm just incredibly naive but I don't think capitalism is going to collapse by us voting. Especially not voting for an establishment stooge like Starmer.

But that’s why I pray for it, I don’t see it as a realistic outcome (at least in my lifetime) as I’m in a far too quiet minority.

 

[Eplel]

Or vote in Starmer. Have 3-4 years of non-action while the media blame Labour for everything the Tories did in the previous 14 years and the next general election all is forgiven and forgotten and the same Tory party get in with another super majority on an anti-immigration / low tax platform.

If that happens, then you cannot blame the tories alone. You have to start blaming the British public.

 

[RedChip]

I don’t see how, barring a major economic revolution, it can realistically happen.

This is my worry, too. The chances of such a revolution are pretty small if you ignore blind optimism in technology saving the day.

 

[Vernon Philander]

I'd like to see more concrete plans and a framework of investment presented that highlights both the costs and projected benefits. There's some half decent economic analyses of the benefits of free school meals knocking about. Those are reasonable models for evaluating policies and couching the benefits of social investment in economic terms. This sort of analysis should have been expanded a while ago: This is the policy>This is the method of implementation>This is the cost>This is the expected economic benefit. Analyses of the costs of failing to invest should be highlighted and presented in a similar manner. There's plenty of highly visible projections for future debt repayments, but fewer that analyse the future costs of today's underinvestment. I think redressing this imbalance in reporting and analysis would go a long way to spurring greater action.

I wouldn't be as mad if this money Labour are saving from reneging on their Green Pledge is earmarked for investment elsewhere, but it's not. The entire schtick seems to be to tap a big red sign that says "fiscal rules" while surreptitiously shoving the "social costs" sign in a drawer.

What you are saying is entirely sensible and, in an educated unbiased landscape, would be a good way to conduct a political strategy.

However, we don’t operate in such an environment for the Left. Every single utterance is scrutinised many times more than the nonesense the Tories come out with. Your flow chart in the biased right-leaning and clickbaity media stops at “This is the cost” and doesn’t get as far as “this is the benefit”. Add on the fact that the Tories are either shooting themselves in the foot or have too much built up apathy with voters, then it is clear why crystallising plans for Labour out loud is far more of a risk than benefit at this stage.

Shoving Social Cost into the drawer is a sad reality of the politics that wins elections under FPTP.

 

[Pexbo]

If that happens, then you cannot blame the tories alone. You have to start blaming the British public.

I already do?

 

[Sweet Square]

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[Don't Kill Bill]

To add more to the list of doom.

Ironically lets start with the last attempt to insulate buildings, where we somehow managed to put flammable material on high rise buildings and now we will have to take it off and put new non-flammable material on those buildings.

Or we could mention the rotting concrete problem, which means we can't use buildings because the roof could collapse and kill everyone in them.

Which leads me nicely to the bankrupt councils issue. I wonder how we are going to keep local govt going given the long running and now critical debt problems.

I'll add the post office crisis here in the firm belief that whatever Fujitsu say we are potentially on the hook here as well.