"We've caught up 8-9 points before"

[R77]

Problem is that if you start comparing Ole's quotes to very early Mourinho there's not a lot of difference:



.

There's a huge difference. Look at how many times "I" is in the quote you posted. Almost very point in there, he's talking about himself, even the bit about Madrid. Look at Ole's interviews. The only times he talks about himself he's mostly being self deprecatory if anything, or talking about how he relates to the club as a whole. Look at the thread title. "We". Find a Mourinho quote that contains "We/Us/The Club" where he's not slagging anyone off. Big difference.

 

[Raven]

Could be our Zidane. Not saying he will be, but he's definitely got the right mindset for it.

 

[NinjaFletch]

There's a huge difference. Look at how many times "I" is in the quote you posted. Almost very point in there, he's talking about himself, even the bit about Madrid. Look at Ole's interviews. The only times he talks about himself he's mostly being self deprecatory if anything, or talking about how he relates to the club as a whole. Look at the thread title. "We". Find a Mourinho quote that contains "We/Us/The Club" where he's not slagging anyone off. Big difference.

Mourinho is more of an egotist, and his quotes probably reflect that. Yet, very plainly, he spoke about how honoured he was to be the manager of a 'great club', how much he likes the fans, how much he wants to make us successful (using the very 'w' word in that interview you're claiming he doesn't use), how it's about the players and so on. It's all there. He hits exactly the same notes Solskjaer hit.

And that's exactly how it was interpreted at the time. I'm not wasting my time going back to search the forum for you when you can do it yourself, but there was universal agreement about how well Mourinho had come across which translated in to positivity about his opening year or so at United (which you can see in the post you're replying to) even when he struggled to do as well as was originally hoped.

 

[GJNJ]

Difficult not impossible. All of our remaining fixtures have tough games we all have Europe. Arsenal and Chelsea have Thursday games. Chelsea also have the league Cup too. I think it will largely come down to how we dispatch the fodder. if we drop points against these teams then we have zero chance.
I feel we have more of a chance of winning our remaining games against the top 6 in that we will hopefully setup to try and win rather than not lose. I would rather go toe to toe and lose 5-3 then low block and get picked off and lose 1-0. I know to some this would be view as Ole being tactically naive.

 

[el3mel]

@NinjaFletch You're right. Both Mourinho's and LVG's first pressers were great and people were also saying they were talking as "true United managers". Both managers changed their tone and started throwing excuses and downing expectations as the results didn't turn out the way they expected.

I think Ole won't do that though he's not a stranger, he's from this club and hopefully he deals with tough results better.

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Clearly Ole hasn't read the Caf's wisdom that it is in fact basically impossible to finish top 4, we can't win the CL and the season is 'practically over', despite having 20 games left in the PL with 8 points to make up.

 

[R77]

Mourinho is more of an egotist, and his quotes probably reflect that. Yet, very plainly, he spoke about how honoured he was to be the manager of a 'great club', how much he likes the fans, how much he wants to make us successful (using the very 'w' word in that interview you're claiming he doesn't use), how it's about the players and so on. It's all there. He hits exactly the same notes Solskjaer hit.

And that's exactly how it was interpreted at the time. I'm not wasting my time going back to search the forum for you when you can do it yourself, but there was universal agreement about how well Mourinho had come across which translated in to positivity about his opening year or so at United (which you can see in the post you're replying to) even when he struggled to do as well as was originally hoped.

I'm saying that with the benefit of hindsight we can look back and his narcissism is plain to see. Whether broaching the same points or not, the perspective is wildly different. It's a crucial distinction. The point about 'finding comments' was plainly rhetorical, btw. Apologies if it wasn't plain enough.

In terms of the gap to the top four, getting close enough for a fighting chance would be an positive development in itself. It would be a fantastic achievment, but failure to do so not the end of the World at this point. One game at a time.

 

[NinjaFletch]

I'm saying that with the benefit of hindsight we can look back and his narcissism is plain to see. Whether broaching the same points or not, the perspective is wildly different. It's a crucial distinction. The point about 'finding comments' was plainly rhetorical, btw. Apologies if it wasn't plain enough.

In terms of the gap to the top four, getting close enough for a fighting chance would be an positive development in itself. It would be a fantastic achievment, but failure to do so not the end of the World at this point. One game at a time.

Ok, find me your quotes where you called out Mourinho for being narcissistic in his first press conferences then, because I have pointed you towards the fact that almost universally people were very happy with what he said at the time.

 

[Red14Devil9]

I am not too optimistic. We did score 5 goals against Cardiff, but that was "Cardiff". It's great that we are more open now, but I think that we are going to get some big defeats before the season ends. In other words, I don't think that top 4 is a realistic option.

 

[R77]

Ok, find me your quotes where you called out Mourinho for being narcissistic in his first press conferences then, because I have pointed you towards the fact that almost universally people were very happy with what he said at the time.

I wasn't a member here then bud You'll just have to believe me I wasn't a fan from the outset, tried, but... I apologise for not putting that in my previous post. Argue away.... It's done. The club's moving on, I will too.

 

[Loony BoB]

Top four is possible because it's not yet half way through a season, and if we can drop 8 points in half a season then so can the other clubs.

It's not the likely thing to happen but anyone who says it's not possible... Well, I wouldn't like to hang out with them. Try to be positive sometimes, I know the last eight or nine years have got you here but never forget what we have done before then.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I thought this was a really magical moment from Ole, in contrast to Mourinho's interview after Sevilla with his "I sit in this chair with Porto, Man United out, I sit in this chair with Real Madrid, Man United out" bollocks.

Both of them fully conscious of the past, but Ole's only thinking about the club and the standards it sets for itself, while Mourinho's only thinking himself and his stature in the game. Watching it back again that attitude from Mourinho really is uniquely self-centred.

But also Ole's perspective does feel unique. He's not thinking about his Manchester United or the players that are there now, it's just Manchester United, we came back against Arsenal in 2003, we can come back this time, it's nothing special.

Whatever happens I think we should appreciate how special it is to have someone with that affection for the club in that position.

Too true. Its a priveilage. Even if it moght end up being just for 6 months at first. He will be like healing balance for the club

 

[nikineil]

It's great. Between Phelan, Ole and Carrick we have from my quick mental maths 22 out of SAF's 27 years of the club covered. That's an incredible amount of experience and understanding of what it takes to be a United player and how to coax the most out of different generations of players. Add McKenna on top of that who is a very highly rated coach and a big United fan it feels like for the first time in a long time we have people in charge who have the club's best interests at heart. I think a lot of yesterday came from Ole trusting the players and staff, something SAF was brilliant at and has been missing ever since he went.

This is not going to fix everything and we'll take a few difficult losses no doubt but it is so much better to see United playing without fear.

I also liked the little barb Ole managed to get in at Jose about beating Sevilla with Molde .

I must have missed this barb! Do you have a link you could share please?

 

[Brwned]

I wasn't responding to your point at all, which is why my reply makes little sense if you interpret it as one. I don't think what Solskjaer has said is anything particularly more than just what you would expect a very nice man who cares a lot about the club to say, but I don't think it's a controversial enough point to be worth discussing, really; I'm not sure your read of them is that far away from what I think, and I agree it's been nice (after the recent toxicity especially) to hear the manager saying it.

What I take issue with is posters like Twigg, whose own opinion on Mourinho self evidently fluctuated, digging out posters (like you, actually) for not calling Mourinho out on being toxic years before the toxicity actually started here based upon a complete re-write of what Mourinho was actually like in those early days as our manager. It was Twigg, not you, I was calling out for dishonest criticism.

I do think there's a cautionary tale in there about becoming infatuated with a manager based on nice things they say in the press to start with, but I'm certainly not criticising you for it, because I've spent most of the morning watching Ole's press conference and am buzzing as much as anyone for the next game.

Ah, in that case agreed on all counts!

The fact you have changed your opinion or whatever for me is a good thing. Being able to change your opinion should never be used as a stick to beat someone if they got it wrong in the first place - anyone can make mistakes.

For me the issue is when people hold on to an opinion in the face of all evidence flying to the contrary out of bias or don’t want to be seen as wrong. Then I get feisty.

So I may have been combative with you initially - not I really recall any significant pro Jose agenda from yourself in the slightest but it is irrelevant now and you’re happy as I am to get behind this new era - that’s the main thing.

Even guys like Ivaldo or Haram - I couldn’t give a shit if they were Jose fan boys - as long as they get behind the club and we all move on together - that is all that matters. Life’s too short to be mentioning hey you remember when you got it wrong long time ago and you are now changing your opinion haha. It’s different if you were still being pro Jose or making digs at the current regime. You aren’t so end of discussion.

Dude I didn't change my opinion, that's the point. Simply because I didn't agree with your "boycott the club for the good of the club" sentiment, that you put me in a box with other Mourinho "supporters". These boxes only exist in your head. This is what I said about him before he came:

Spoiler

There's nothing a manager can do to turn it around when the players stop playing for him. They're not defending badly because they have poor defenders, they're defending badly because the team spirit is terrible, the workrate is below par and people are unsure of their responsibilities in key moments because no-one's communicating. It's a systematic issue not an individual one.

The only way throwing a shitload of money at the problem would work is if they literally replaced over half the first team. Even then you're hoping the new players escape the poisonous atmosphere and avoid slipping into the same malaise. Given Mourinho's been sulking since the very beginning of the season that seems unlikely.

I get why people don't like this idea of player power but I don't get why they're so quick to take the blame away from Mourinho. It is his fault and no-one else's for losing the dressing room. It's just poor man management. Of the 14 players that played today, only 3 weren't bought by him (Terry, Hazard and Ramires). He brought in the players he needed with the mentalities he wanted and yet now he's saying they have a weak mentality. That's embarrassing. Sir Alex had many poor runs of form but he never lost the dressing room.

Whether he's a great manager or not is neither here nor there at this stage. He's now in an untenable position and needs to go.

You're probably right but most Chelsea fans were bizarrely enchanted with Mourinho, which is what makes this even funnier to be fair. They really deified him.

The Mourinho in his first two seasons in his second stint at Chelsea was "reinvented", IMO. They played pretty football more often than effective football and their key players absolutely weren't about pace, power and stamina. They weren't mechanical and there was a freedom to their game. He reverted to type after that 5-3 to Spurs though and things started crumbling from there.

I think he'll always be that way and a short-term move away from that only causes long-term damage.

The biggest question is does he still have the same burning desire for success. The Mourinho that came back to England was a much more docile character and after the title win he looked completely devoid of motivation and inspiration. He started lashing out when he was up against it but at that point he'd given up on inspiring his team - that was painfully clear.

The idea that because he's been incredibly successful in the past, he'll be incredibly successful in the future is deeply flawed. There are plenty of managers who had tremendous success when they were young and failed to recreate that later. Personally I think that's a huge element that's been overlooked by many.

I've not been a Mourinho supporter in the 15 years he's been a manager. I liked him even less when we signed him. I just take a different attitude to supporting United managers. That's the point I was making back then that you couldn't hear...it's mad you still can't hear it.

Too true. Its a priveilage. Even if it moght end up being just for 6 months at first. He will be like healing balance for the club

Yeah I think healing is a great description. I don't agree at all that you can put this down as giddiness after a great start. Just his very presence is contributing something few others could in his position, in this moment.

It's not excitement about results, it's recognition of what he can uniquely offer right now, and how necessary that was after a manager like Mourinho. I don't expect results to change much personally. Bringing back stability is more important than that.

 

[fishfingers15]

@NinjaFletch You're right. Both Mourinho's and LVG's first pressers were great and people were also saying they were talking as "true United managers". Both managers changed their tone and started throwing excuses and downing expectations as the results didn't turn out the way they expected.

I think Ole won't do that though he's not a stranger, he's from this club and hopefully he deals with tough results better.

LvG's football was dire but the man had class that Mou desparately lacks.

 

[Ashley R1+O]

Problem is that if you start comparing Ole's quotes to very early Mourinho there's not a lot of difference:

Great post. There is a give and take between Ed, Mourinho, players and fans. Everyone needs to be on board and I love Ole because he's genuinely aligned to the club. Mourinho.... probably not so much...

 

[Raees]

Ah, in that case agreed on all counts!



Dude I didn't change my opinion, that's the point. Simply because I didn't agree with your "boycott the club for the good of the club" sentiment, that you put me in a box with other Mourinho "supporters". These boxes only exist in your head. This is what I said about him before he came:


I've not been a Mourinho supporter in the 15 years he's been a manager. I liked him even less when we signed him. I just take a different attitude to supporting United managers. That's the point I was making back then that you couldn't hear...it's mad you still can't hear it.



Yeah I think healing is a great description. I don't agree at all that you can put this down as giddiness after a great start. Just his very presence is contributing something few others could in his position, in this moment.

It's not excitement about results, it's recognition of what he can uniquely offer right now, and how necessary that was after a manager like Mourinho. I don't expect results to change much personally. Bringing back stability is more important than that.

Remind me of the comments I made stating you are part of a select group of Mourinho supporters. Not saying I didn’t - but if you can remind me we can continue the discussion from there as your quote from the first page is about me defending myself rather than accusing you of something.

Simplistic way of trying to paint anyone who is unsupportive of Jose’s project as a ‘fair-weather’ fan.

Why no boycott under Moyes or LVG where the football was as bad or where the results were actually more terrible?

The difference is that those two managers were incompetent but they weren’t abusing their position of responsibility. The playing style they both utilised whilst here wasn’t strictly in line with our values etc but off the pitch they didn’t disgrace the club or actively seek to create divides within the club (not to the same extent). End of the day the manager in many ways becomes the personification of the club especially a club like this where we give managers a huge say on the actions of the club.

Most managers stick to football stuff and don’t really dabble in the media and play politics - Jose does that. Fans from other clubs will tell you that Jose has previous in doing so, which makes him unique. See @carvajal post on his time at Madrid where he had fans turning on each other.

That’s why it isn’t a normal situation of just sit tight, keep supporting the club and hoping results come in and things turn around. He’s poison and I cannot actively support the club getting results - when each result keeps him in longer but the club becomes more and more of a laughing stock with his antics and players who have the potential to be great players here end up walking away. I don’t see how that is being a good supporter.

Being an England fan for example, we are used to years of failure and we’ve had years of incompetence pre the recent World Cup campaign. No need to boycott though, as everyone in the role has tried their best and even though the football has been shite, still never missed a game or stopped supporting. I’m not the one here who is fussed about results or ‘winning’. Yes winning is nice and a bonus, but ultimately you support a club because something about it connects with you whether it’s because it’s your local club, your dad supported them etc. When someone is abusing the very thing you care about (and I feel post Sevilla - Jose has especially during pre season almost tried to tank it with some of his comments and seems more concerned about the preservation of his legacy than the well-being of the club) how can I justify supporting that any longer.

There is the post you conveniently took the initial quote from. At no stage does it mention you being part of the Jose cult. You were saying at no stage can a boycott of a club ever be reasonable because it has no impact on a club despite for example Arsenal fans boycotting games and leading to Wenger eventually going and not to mention most of the fans on this very forum were beginning to formulate plans to boycott attending games or stop watching games/buying merchandise before Jose was sacked.

Again to reiterate - at no stage was any of this to do with calling you a Jose supporter. If you have beef with Wumminator - take it up with him because I have zero issues with you and this is not a ‘dispute’ which is worth my time.

 

[royboy16]

It was refreshing to hear,it sounded exactly like something Fergie would say.
I wonder is the great man more involved lately and pulling a few strings in the background to steady the ship ?

 

[Andycoleno9]

20 games left. 8 points is not much in PL where every team is strong enough to beat everyone. I am not worried

 

[el3mel]

LvG's football was dire but the man had class that Mou desparately lacks.

I don't see that "class". He downed the expectations massively, thrown his players under thr bus some times too and had terrible quotes about sex masochism and horny players who made us a laughing stock. He was also on a continuous war with the media in his second season. Not to mention he has slaughtered the club since he left far more than Moyes himself.

Both took the same line, starting up talking great and people saying they're true United managers, then when they faced terrible results their tone changed to convince the fans to down expectation. I think both underestimated the job here.

Can't see Ole doing that as he gets the club more than outsiders.

 

[fishfingers15]

I don't see that "class". He downed the expectations massively, thrown his players under thr bus some times too and had terrible quotes about sex masochism and horny players who made us a laughing stock. He was also on a continuous war with the media in his second season. Not to mention he has slaughtered the club since he left far more than Moyes himself.

Both took the same line, starting up talking great and people saying they're true United managers, then when they faced terrible results their tone changed to convince the fans to down expectation. I think both underestimated the job here.

Can't see Ole doing that as he gets the club more than outsiders.

Fair enough but he's not in the same zip code as Mou when it comes to throwing players and club under the bus.

 

[Brwned]

Remind me of the comments I made stating you are part of a select group of Mourinho supporters. Not saying I didn’t - but if you can remind me we can continue the discussion from there as your quote from the first page is about me defending myself rather than accusing you of something.



There is the post you conveniently took the initial quote from. At no stage does it mention you being part of the Jose cult. You were saying at no stage can a boycott of a club ever be reasonable because it has no impact on a club despite for example Arsenal fans boycotting games and leading to Wenger eventually going and not to mention most of the fans on this very forum were beginning to formulate plans to boycott attending games or stop watching games/buying merchandise before Jose was sacked.

Again to reiterate - at no stage was any of this to do with calling you a Jose supporter. If you have beef with Wumminator - take it up with him because I have zero issues with you and this is not a ‘dispute’ which is worth my time.

Your first line, man. If I'm painting "anyone who is unsupportive of Jose’s project as a ‘fair-weather’ fan", then I'm either a Mourinho supporter or I'm calling myself a fairweather fan. I was neither, and I wasn't grouping anyone together with you. It was just your views I was discussing, no-one else's.

The reason I brought it up is because you said I've changed my mind. What way could you think I've "changed my mind", other than jumping off the Mourinho bandwagon? Theres nothing I've said in this thread that could make you think I've changed my mind about boycotting.

I'm just saying that bandwagon probably didn't exist, and at the very least I wasn't on it. You just had to categorise me a certain way to make sense of things. My views didn't align with yours so they must be part of some other herd's. The reality was I paid very little attention to what people said on here about Mourinho, it was so boring, and was on here quite rarely. I wouldn't have been able to mimic a group's consensus on Mourinho even if I tried.

It was refreshing to hear,it sounded exactly like something Fergie would say.
I wonder is the great man more involved lately and pulling a few strings in the background to steady the ship ?

I reckon so! Didn't turn out so well with Moyes but I'm ready to follow his lead again...

 

[FootballHQ]

20 games left. 8 points is not much in PL where every team is strong enough to beat everyone. I am not worried

Been a few of those results recently but really this is worst set of bottom 6 teams in prem for a long time. Look at the points totals for top 5, they're all on course to average pretty much 80 points which is unheard of.

 

[deafepl]

Worth to note Spurs were 7 points off top 4 in the first 18 games last season, sitting in 7th behind Burnley, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool to finish ahead of them eventually. For us to finish in 4 top, it requires a consistently form and fewer loses. If we manage to beat Spurs away, rest of the away games are winnable and only have Liverpool and City at home.

 

[Heymrtangerineman]

Win our home games against the teams above us and you never know!

 

[Sandikan]

If we can continue drilling the lower teams, you never know where the momentum might take us.

 

[J_XO]

We have favourable fixtures coming up and hopefully we can obliterate the fodder, that was where we struggled. We let anyone control the game (Wolves, Derby at home come to mind) but with our positive approach that will surely change and we pick up plenty of points

 

[OldPop]

It's strange how nice it can be to have completely wrong sometimes.

A few days ago I hadn't seen any sign that we would make five goals away. It was a while since last.

Nor had I seen any signs that Man City would lose against Crystal Palace at home.

I also considered our chance to reach the top 4 hardly existed, not even in theory. But things can obviously change very quickly, faster than I could imagine.

Yet we don't know of course whether our victory and Man City's loss was a coincidence, but now I'm no longer as sure of how it goes. It feels pretty good!

 

[Unitedssss]

It is possible to make the top four but we will have to play superb football within the next six months and work together as a team, playing with passion and a determination to succeed. Something that we have missed ever since Sir Alex retired.

 

[Tony247]

We are not finishing top 4 this season. Only hope is CL title to qualify for next year.

 

[ash_86]

Home form is the key here. We're done with City, Chelsea and Liverpool away , three of the toughest places to goto. If we could secure our home form,then we could cause some serious damage in the second half of the season against our direct rivals.

 

[SadlerMUFC]

If City, Liverpool, Arsenal and Spurs lose 7 games and we win those 7, we'll be top of the league. Treble's still on lads!

I love you optimism (and I'm assuming sarcasm), but even if we win our remaining 20 games that will leave us with 89 points, which may have been enough to win the league before, but I don't think it is anymore unless City and Liverpool completely sh*t the bed...

 

[Sky1981]

Top four is possible because it's not yet half way through a season, and if we can drop 8 points in half a season then so can the other clubs.

It's not the likely thing to happen but anyone who says it's not possible... Well, I wouldn't like to hang out with them. Try to be positive sometimes, I know the last eight or nine years have got you here but never forget what we have done before then.

Top 4 is possible teams above us will drop points.

However the 2 of them dropping 10 pts and us winning all our matches looks improbable

 

[crossy1686]

I love you optimism (and I'm assuming sarcasm), but even if we win our remaining 20 games that will leave us with 89 points, which may have been enough to win the league before, but I don't think it is anymore unless City and Liverpool completely sh*t the bed...

This makes me feel better. We won't win every game between now and the end of the season and this isn't last season. City and Liverpool both look beatable and I'm confident it will be much tighter come the end of the season.

 

[M Utd]

It's so refreshing to have a manager that doesn't belittle the club and players! Don't know what he'd say during a bad period of results for us but I'm sure it'll be respectful and not a platform for the manager to list a bunch of excuses.

I agree. I have avoided reading things about United as staff directly from the club were being so negative. I think Ole has a great platform and so do the players to express themselves. I think it's a clever move by the board as if it works out then it's smiles all round. If not they can say we were trying something different before appointing our next manager. I'm not expecting miracles but I'm certainly going to enjoy the ride for the remainder of the season.

 

[Betson]

6 pts now. Still an outside chance but not impossible.

Decision time for the board as well , do they back Ole this January if he wants to bring in some players or just wait until the summer and we have a full time manager.

 

[Judas]

6 points at this point in the season, with Chelsea and Arsenal both looking far from unbeatable is absolutely nothing.

 

[Andycoleno9]

6 pts now. Still an outside chance but not impossible.

Decision time for the board as well , do they back Ole this January if he wants to bring in some players or just wait until the summer and we have a full time manager.

Outside chance with 19 games to play? 6 points is nothing in this moment. Plus they come to OT

 

[Catt]

Outside chance with 19 games to play? 6 points is nothing in this moment. Plus they come to OT

Arsenal have already been to OT.

 

[cyberman]

6 pts now. Still an outside chance but not impossible.

Decision time for the board as well , do they back Ole this January if he wants to bring in some players or just wait until the summer and we have a full time manager.

Chelsea are dropping points every other game, if we don't don't this its our own fault.