Mrs Smoker
Full Member
"I am still a Liverpool fan!!"
1. We needed a proven CB. Yes, we could have spent 20 or 30 and bought someone who might grow into the position. We just weren't in a position to take a chance. We did that with Bailley. PL-proven CBs go for 60 and up and Maguire was available. The bottom line is1. I never said he shouldn't have signed a CB. However 80m for Maguire is crazy. Its like a working class person who need transportation to go to work. Instead of him buying a bus season ticket or a car he goes on buying a land rover for the price of a Ferrari
2. Youths are great but you simply can't rely on them to fill certain gaping holes especially in a team with little talent and zero leadership. We keep mentioning the class of 92. However what many fail to mention is that they were older then the likes of Garner are, they were put in a team that had some real leaders and quality and they were phased in slowly. There's a good way of doing things and an amateur way of doing things. Sir Alex did the former, Ole well, the latter.
3. And that what we should have done.Our squad is simply too thin to challenge for everything. Sir Alex did threw cups away as well. Also if the kids are that good then surely they can beat Tranmere right? FFS we're talking about a club who are in the relegation zone of League 1.
4. I don't think that there's any Carrick fans around in here (as coach) or anywhere else really. The guy really got the job out of pure nepotism. Also no one stopped Ole to bring in some top coaches instead of his mates Dempsey and Hartis did they?
What? You're twisting my words. Where did i even hint at everything to be completed in one window?Where do you think all of the money was going to come from to buy two defenders, two midfielders, two wingers and a forward in one window?
Most of you on here live in dreamland, too much fantasy football and FIFA
In real life, clubs have budgets, transfers take months to negotiate (in and out), players and agents change their minds at the last minute...
And yes it is all part of the plan...a very clear and obvious plan that’s been in place since Ole started and is being followed to the letter
That was my argument.Bruno was available in the summer. You can't tell me that purchasing Maguire for £80m & losing Smalling in the process was an intelligent decision over upgrading the midfield/attack which we all knew beforehand was crying out for serious upgrades.
So i think the upgrade on Smalling with Maguire is minimal for the cost paid (£80m), and the opportunity cost for not being able to bring in a quality experienced attacker or midfielder (Bruno), i question heavily. The defence wasn't a massive problem under Mourinho, our lack of goals and creativity was the bigger problem i would say. Solskjaer's decision to not strengthen these areas with quality to me is highly questionable.
When he had already been here months before, and seen the same problems we're facing now, (lack of creativity/quality in attack), to think that he would neglect all that and prioritise defence instead is mind boggling.
We are overpaying because of this plan. What do you have to say about that?Sporting Lisbon vice-president Francisco Salgado Zenha claims Manchester United paid over the odds for Bruno Fernandes.
After a long-running and drawn out transfer saga, Zenha is under no doubts his side were the ones to win the negotations.
They are believed to have netted around £46million in advance with scope for more than £20m more in add-ons - and he says they held their nerve after United wrongly believed they would cave.
"I realised in the negotiations that Manchester United was convinced that we were going to give in and that for 50 million euros he was doing the deal. Well, they ended up paying 65 million," Zenha said, via Record.
"They were wrong and ended up paying what we wanted. We went to get 20 million more than if we had sold four months ago."
Well Id rather see us spend 30m on a promising punt then 80m with no chance in hell of ever becoming WC especially since we work on a limited budget and we had a certain midfield to cater for. Sure the defence is better now then before however that improvement is certainly not worth 130m. Also it meant nothing considering we had the worst start since 1989 which was quite predictable since we started the season with basically no midfield.1. We needed a proven CB. Yes, we could have spent 20 or 30 and bought someone who might grow into the position. We just weren't in a position to take a chance. We did that with Bailley. PL-proven CBs go for 60 and up and Maguire was available. The bottom line is
Shaw/Williams........Maguire......Lindelof.......AWB
is a much better defense than
Young/Shaw............Lindelof/Bailley/Jones........Rojo/Smalling......Valencia/Darmian.
I don't think anyone can say otherwise.
2 and 3. I agree it's all about the squad strength. You didn't answer my other question, though, related to the squad:
Do you really think Ole decided to NOT buy any Forwards and Midfielders last summer? Really? Or do you think he and the club tried but nothing good developed? What's the more likely scenario? Even big clubs can't just snap their fingers and get transfers done.
4. I don't know anything about Carrick, Dempsey and Hartis as coaches so I'm not going to comment. A manager should have his choice of staff so no one should have stopped him from hiring who he wanted. If he chooses unwisely, that will cost him.
You keep saying Maguire is not WC and yet he is a starter on England's squad that is ranked 4th in the world coming off a very good WC. We also sold Lukaku for 73m so I think we had the funds for other transfers. I'm fairly certain the club tried to replace Herrera and Lukaku and it just didn't work out.Well Id rather see us spend 30m on a promising punt then 80m with no chance in hell of ever becoming WC especially since we work on a limited budget and we had a certain midfield to cater for. Sure the defence is better now then before however that improvement is certainly not worth 130m. Also it meant nothing considering we had the worst start since 1989 which was quite predictable since we started the season with basically no midfield.
Regarding your second comment, Ole should have known that like any other club which doesn't run on petrodollars, we work on a budget. He should have also known that if he spent 130m on defenders then there will be little/no budget to spend on anything else really. So that's on him as well. He chose to blow most of our budget on two decent but hardly WC defenders, the most expensive of whom, used to play with a team who are now 3rd without him. Leicester must have laughed their way to the bank.
Ole got his priority wrong during the summer, he overrated the kids which then forced him to play the same players again and again and he didn't prioritised on what was important which added more fatigue on players. We're currently ninth, with the worst start since 1989 and below 'super clubs' like Sheffield United, Everton, Wolves and Leicester. We're closer to 18th place West Ham (11 points) then 3rd place Leicester (15 points) ie the club we stripped that 80m rated CB from. That's unacceptable.
Good postWell I'm quite bad really, because during the matches, casting a steely eye upon the physical evidence on pitch, I generally become totally Ole out.
What system we see, when we see it, is very poor. With this being the case for a time period of more than enough leeway I cannot in the moment logically consider being Ole in. There is zero evidence of training ground drills making their way to match day. Off the ball movement, general positional intelligence (strikers actually getting into goalscoring areas), passing patterns, set piece proficiency - both attack wise and defensively; all are lacking. Overall it seems like Ole desperately needs to bring in some expert coaches.
But then after some time elapses, after the emotions of the match day thread subside, I take a moment to think about the virtue of patience and the realities of how empires aren't built in a day. I take the time to consider the positives around Ole's tenure so far.
We've had more than enough evidence now of how long it takes managers to shape their own squad. When a manager decides a player and his mentality isn't for him it takes time to jettison said individual. Then there's probably at least 33% of each inherited squad that a manager would rather not be there. With each individual coming and going there is a dressing room/training ground shift in togetherness. If we think back to what made the 99 team so strong, or in general Sir Alex's squads, it was respect, accountability, a strong thread of understanding throughout the squad.
I'm finally starting to accept that getting on the road to a recreation of that takes time. Ole isn't half having as tough a time of it as you can imagine: the amount of articles written about every little issue; the results themselves; Poch's sudden availability, amongst more besides. Ole has held himself throughout as well as, if not better than any other manager might have. Meanwhile, if you believe what you read, players are coming out in his defence, urging the board to stick by him.
We've certainly been at many crossroads that's for sure, but I like to think of the current time as a very important one for persisting with the culture change. In my opinion, Ole is succeeding with his current remit of keeping the ship on course, managing the constant to-ing and fro-ing of the day to day tide as he builds toward that goal of a well oiled entity, the likes of which we haven't seen for well on the way to a decade.
The thing is I don't trust a new manager to continue the work that Ole and it has to be said, Ed of late, have started in moving to redress the footballing world's perception of Manchester United: - how we deal with agents, how we target players, the noises we allow the media to make and what we feed them, nurturing the lifeblood from our youth system. There is evidence of stabilisation in this collective regard.
There's much work to be done across the board and most certainly on the pitch of course; but starting it all again, that journey of however many years it takes a manager to construct a unit in his image, whilst remaining true to a club ethos....I don't fancy chucking Ole to the Lions just yet.
Good postCant judge the man on this season. Our best player has been out injured all season. Our two best attackers have been out for considerable periods of time. Our most consistent performer has been out injured also.
The board has sold or let go 8 first team players and has only brought in 2 proper first team players at the start of the season, Dan James being a signing for the future.
Back the manager in the summer, fufil this long term vision that we have been hearing about, then we can properly judge Ole as a manager.
You know he's been a manager for 10 years right ? You think 10 years and a season and a half at United is not enough to judge whether a manager is good enough for us or not?Cant judge the man on this season. Our best player has been out injured all season. Our two best attackers have been out for considerable periods of time. Our most consistent performer has been out injured also.
The board has sold or let go 8 first team players and has only brought in 2 proper first team players at the start of the season, Dan James being a signing for the future.
Back the manager in the summer, fufil this long term vision that we have been hearing about, then we can properly judge Ole as a manager.
So much of this is absolutely spot on, I will hold my hands up and say I thought we were right to spend big on the defence last summer but after seeing how dead we have look creativity wise this season, however right now it's starting to look like a really costly mistake indeed.Well, we started the season with a ridiculously thin fault cause the manager preferred blowing 130m in defence rather then tackling midfield. That's what I call starting the season on the wrong foot. Anyway, an experienced manager would acknowledge how thin his squad is and prioritise (Europa league and maybe the EPL?). That wasn't Ole's way though who kept playing the same players again and again irrespective whether we played Liverpool or Tranmere. That of course leads to fatigue and wear and tear problems which in turn lead the manager to ask players to do more sacrifices for the cause which in turn lead to more injuries. Managers do ask players to make sacrifices, even potentially career threatened ones. We did that to Blomqvist during the CL final for example.
Also note that the training staff is chosen by the manager. Maybe its time he adds more experience instead of matey Carrick, Mckenna, Dempsey and Hartis
Ole is lucky that we didn't lost any more pieces when he fielded a near full team in Tranmere's potato field.
Use any metrics you want. Our defence this year is much worse than all, bar maybe probably moyes seasonYou keep saying Maguire is not WC and yet he is a starter on England's squad that is ranked 4th in the world coming off a very good WC. We also sold Lukaku for 73m so I think we had the funds for other transfers. I'm fairly certain the club tried to replace Herrera and Lukaku and it just didn't work out.
So on your limited budget you want to hire a new manager for millions and millions like what we did with LvG and Mourinho. Sounds really smart.
Heck yes I can blame him. Was Fellaini, Herrera and Lukaku (not I did not mention Sanchez and Smalling) not gone under his watch and he failed to provide adequate cover for them? Did he not put all his eggs in the Pogba basket and relying totally on him when a) Pogba made it publicly known that he wanted to leave and b) Pogba has had a history of picking injuries consistently? Did he not also chose to play his first team regulars in all of the matches all of the time forcing injuries and recurrence of injuries to them?Cant judge the man on this season. Our best player has been out injured all season. Our two best attackers have been out for considerable periods of time. Our most consistent performer has been out injured also.
The board has sold or let go 8 first team players and has only brought in 2 proper first team players at the start of the season, Dan James being a signing for the future.
Back the manager in the summer, fufil this long term vision that we have been hearing about, then we can properly judge Ole as a manager.
Wtf. Taffarel was part of Brazil WC winning team. Was he WC? Of course he wasn't. Same with Maguire who is neither WC nor worth 80m. We paid premium cause he is English.You keep saying Maguire is not WC and yet he is a starter on England's squad that is ranked 4th in the world coming off a very good WC. We also sold Lukaku for 73m so I think we had the funds for other transfers. I'm fairly certain the club tried to replace Herrera and Lukaku and it just didn't work out.
So on your limited budget you want to hire a new manager for millions and millions like what we did with LvG and Mourinho. Sounds really smart.
I don't blame fans. It is easy to be carried away by big signings. Maguire also served Woodward's agenda well. He hit the headlines by being the most expensive defender in the world for a player who was previously on a Leicester FC salary. His signing also made it easier for the club to shut doors after just 3 signings madeSo much of this is absolutely spot on, I will hold my hands up and say I thought we were right to spend big on the defence last summer but after seeing how dead we have look creativity wise this season, however right now it's starting to look like a really costly mistake indeed.
Honestly, if Ole started doing any of the theatrics we saw Jose do when he wasn't getting his way, such as playing McTominay as a centerback or putting Dalot up as a winger, then it's Ole Out for me. Or if Ole started publicly dressing down his players, as Jose did, or if it becomes clear he's lost the dressing = Ole Out.So many threads are at loggerheads at the moment between Ole in and Ole out, both have good points, but I read the same arguments every day to the point of distraction and it's rare that anyone concedes anything, everything feels very entrenched and polarised.
So Ole in posters what would it take to change your position?
How low could the win rate percentage drop? or how low would you go in the league this season before you change your mind?
And Ole out posters, how many wins on the trot would change your mind, which signings in the summer might make you think again?
What does Ole do that changes anyone's opinion?
Ighalo is a loan signing....zero riskWait so we planned Ighalo
So Sporting’s desperate Chairman says we paid over the odds for Bruno? Come on, you must know how weak that argument is. We just paid £46m upfront to sign a regular Portuguese International in his prime in a world where Everton supposedly just turned down £80m for Richarlison...even if Bruno turns out to be hopeless nobody is going to tell me we overpaid.What? You're twisting my words. Where did i even hint at everything to be completed in one window?
That was my argument.
Like you said, ''In real life, clubs have budgets''. So there is an opportunity cost. So it was his choice. Wouldn't it make sense to upgrade your positions of utmost importance first?
We have Lingard playing AM, who hasn't contributed anything in a year. Yet you're saying ''It's all part of the plan...a very clear and obvious plan that’s been in place since Ole started and is being followed to the letter''.
This plan where we overplay our players into the ground whilst carrying injuries (Rashford,McTominay,Pogba) then desperately overpay for Bruno & any old striker who will come here on loan in the January window, what a marvelous plan:
We are overpaying because of this plan. What do you have to say about that?
All that's missing is the laa at the end of your post. It would all make sense then.
Wow.. the post must be so light for youIghalo is a loan signing....zero risk
Total non-point/story
Won quite a few trophies in that time. Kind of defeats your point.You know he's been a manager for 10 years right ? You think 10 years and a season and a half at United is not enough to judge whether a manager is good enough for us or not?
That's assuming there is one and the club hasn't been lying to the fansCant judge the man on this season. Our best player has been out injured all season. Our two best attackers have been out for considerable periods of time. Our most consistent performer has been out injured also.
The board has sold or let go 8 first team players and has only brought in 2 proper first team players at the start of the season, Dan James being a signing for the future.
Back the manager in the summer, fufil this long term vision that we have been hearing about, then we can properly judge Ole as a manager.
feck me .. You think winning the league that is ranked 22nd twice 8 fecking years ago and relegating Cardiff defeats my point that he's not good enough??? Or are you talking about his playing career.Won quite a few trophies in that time. Kind of defeats your point.
So all just no opinions and no facts.feck me .. You think winning the league that is ranked 22nd twice 8 fecking years ago and relegating Cardiff defeats my point that he's not good enough??? Or are you talking about his playing career.
Just look at how he's spent his managerial career so far.. His last achievement was winning the Norwegian league ranked 22nd in the world eight fecking years ago. His time in the premier league has him relegating Cardiff followed by a poor showing in the championship. His time with us has us on course to our lowest point tally in over 30 years.
How anyone thinks he needs a fit squad or transfer window before they can judge whether he's good enough for us is beyond me. He doesn't even need a squad to know if he's good enough.. He has been in the game for 10 fecking years and we can judge whether he's good enough for us by his managerial career not when Pogba and Mctominay are fit or when we replace Lingard with Grealish.
Last season were turned to shit after the PSG game.Cant judge the man on this season. Our best player has been out injured all season. Our two best attackers have been out for considerable periods of time. Our most consistent performer has been out injured also.
The board has sold or let go 8 first team players and has only brought in 2 proper first team players at the start of the season, Dan James being a signing for the future.
Back the manager in the summer, fufil this long term vision that we have been hearing about, then we can properly judge Ole as a manager.
SAF won the league with a side called Aberdeen. Aberdeen who?So all just no opinions and no facts.
Im guessing SAF also just wont one shitty league before he arrived, in your opinion?
Don’t really know what you’re on about to be honest...I’ll just repeat that I think it starts to look like a clear agenda when you use a 6 month loan signing as a stick to beat a manager with...Wow.. the post must be so light for you
Erm: that’s exactly what he did!SAF won the league with a side called Aberdeen. Aberdeen who?
He beat Celtic/Rangers, which is almost impossible.
And let's not forget that he won a EU trophy.
Sides like Aberdeen should not be winning EU trophies.
Had Ole not got Cardiff relegated. Had he won the league in Norway with a side who has never won a league before. Had he won a EU trophy. Then and only then could we compare Ole to SAF.
And let's not forget, at MUFC, Ole has resided over our worst start in the history of the EPL. Why is this fact being ignored?
Well we all suffered under LvG and most of Mou's time with some pretty lousy football. IMO when we have played well under Ole the football has been more attractive and hopeful than what I saw from both the great managers in LvG and Mou. Do we need to be more consistent, hell yes.Wtf. Taffarel was part of Brazil WC winning team. Was he WC? Of course he wasn't. Same with Maguire who is neither WC nor worth 80m. We paid premium cause he is English.
Pushing lukaku out was also a big mistake. Sure everyone likes to see fast paced football. However most of the time you want a strong and powerful striker who can break defenses up. Ole recognised that mistake this January by first going for Haaland then he settled for ighalo. We have a manager who is getting on the job training and we are the ones who are suffering for his inexperience