Would you sack or keep Ole? (Poll reopened)

[el3mel]

Seriously? Just look at the squads.

Do we have a central defence pairing of title quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea probably does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have a pair of full backs capable of being vital cogs in the attack? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have at least one central midfielder capable of dominating defensively and of contributing significantly to the attack? Liverpool does. Chelsea does. City does. Tottenham arguably does.
Do we have a natural right forward/winger of elite quality? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does.
Do we have at least one striker who would be regarded by pretty much everyone as being good enough for a top team? Liverpool does. City does. Chelsea does. Tottenham does.
If you look at our secondary options, are those as good as the ones Liverpool, City or Chelsea have?

Your statement about "defeatist mentality" to me sums up everything that is wrong with this team's fanbase - a sense of blind entitlement that confuses the exceptional with the normal, and expects - demands, even - the sort of miracles the real world isn't going to give us just because SAF occasionally did. Telling you to lower your expectations has got nothing to do with supporting this or that manager. It's just basic common sense.

We have better defense than pretty much all of these. Which central midfielder capable of dictating the game do Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have as well? Midfield has never been Liverpool 's main strength. It's their attackers and fullback.

By this logic of yours we should be 6th every season then? You just made us the worst of all big teams in England!

Anyway, the point I said is we aren't facing Liverpool and Chelsea every week. 90% of our games are against midtable clubs and relegation fodder. We are better than these surely? The number of big games in a season is about 10-12 out of 38. You win the league by being consistent in the other 28 games against midtable and relegation fodders teams.

It's a defeatist mentality to conclude we have no chance to win the league or even challenge just because there are one or two teams better than us. So there's no hope to win it until we have the undisputed best team in the league? Because it isn't happening any time soon, maybe ever.

 

[Flexdegea]

We have better defense than pretty much all of these. Which central midfielder capable of dictating the game do Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have as well? Midfield has never been Liverpool 's main strength. It's their attackers and fullback.

By this logic of yours we should be 6th every season then? You just made us the worst of all big teams in England!

Anyway, the point I said is we aren't facing Liverpool and Chelsea every week. 90% of our games are against midtable clubs and relegation fodder. We are better than these surely? The number of big games in a season is about 10-12 out of 38. You win the league by being consistent in the other 28 games against midtable and relegation fodders teams.

It's a defeatist mentality to conclude we have no chance to win the league or even challenge just because there are one or two teams better than us. So there's no hope to win it until we have the undisbuted best team in the league? Because it isn't happening any time soon, maybe ever.

It's not defeatist at all, you are so dramatic


You must literally have thought we win the league every season since Fergie went because this is how you are coming across,

"doesn't matter we can do it, our squad as good as the rest give us the trophies nai I'm a born winner not defeatist like the rest'


Wishing and thinking a title challenge is not actually reality how football works just because you think you are holding these high High standards in your head.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

https://www.redcafe.net/search/305824/?q=strawman&c[users]=Regulus+Arcturus+Black&o=relevance

Here is a compilation of @Regulus Arcturus Black calling calling out strawman arguments. Even using the word "ridiculous".


I'll bring you this prime example, for a better illustration of the hypocrisy. Using a strawman argument, only to get angry/call out the returning (non strawman) questions.


Saying I wouldn't extend Ole's contract:


Out of nowhere: Strawman/hypotheticals.



Answer:


Calling out non-existent strawman:


EDIT: Added two quotes for better understanding of context.

Bit of an odd collection of quotes that.

I asked you a simple question regarding Bayern because they absolutely do maintain standards by quickly sacking failing managers. Chelsea also.
Hell, the time and rope given to Moyes and especially LVG is the reason we ended up in the mire for so many years.

Your reply on Bayern was decent enough, but you added in AC Milan who have underinvested for years, it’s a terrible example.
And “3 managers per year”, “sacking EVERY season after 8 games” is of course a strawman.

None of that is an example of what VP asked, just a case of you having a bee in your bonnet still regarding that exchange.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Bit of an odd collage that.

I asked you a simple question regarding Bayern because they absolutely do maintain standards by quickly sacking failing managers. Chelsea also.
Hell, the time and rope given to Moyes and especially LVG is the reason we ended up in the mire for so many years.

Your reply on Bayern was decent enough, but you added in AC Milan who have underinvested for years, it’s a terrible example.
And “3 managers per year”, “sacking EVERY season after 8 games” is of course a strawman.

None of that is an example of what VP asked, just a case of you having a bee in your bonnet still regarding that exchange.

You used a strawman, then cried about a strawman. Or hypotheticals, if you want, which I also provided evidence for.

- No, I don’t want to extend Ole’s contract, and I think the use of the phrase “standards have dropped is stupid”

- So Bayern shouldn’t fire bad managers?

this is really a textbook example of a strawman argument.

No bee in the bonnet about anything, just providing evidence upon request. I can’t really start reading through you 660(!) posts in this thread to find even more.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

He's quite crafty is Regulus. Quite jerky knees, too. I take him with a pinch of salt.

I think that’s a fair claim Zen, My default position has always been one of huge doubt over this appointment. The start of the first season through to December was my fears coming true. But I like Ole a lot, he is a club legend and seems like a really nice bloke.
So when I see a ray of light I absolutely tend to knee-jerk into the path of thinking maybe just maybe. But so far every time I start to knee-jerk that way we have a way of kicking me right in the balls immediately for it.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

No bee in the bonnet about anything, just providing evidence upon request. I can’t really start reading through you 660(!) posts in this thread to find even more.

Sure. I mean it’s not like you’re still going on about it weeks afterwards, and now another post banging on about it again now.

No bees here.

 

[VP89]

You used a strawman, then cried about a strawman. Or hypotheticals, if you want, which I also provided evidence for.

- No, I don’t want to extend Ole’s contract, and I think the use of the phrase “standards have dropped is stupid”

- So Bayern shouldn’t fire bad managers?

this is really a textbook example of a strawman argument.

No bee in the bonnet about anything, just providing evidence upon request. I can’t really start reading through you 660(!) posts in this thread to find even more.

I don't think your examples point to a hypothetical scenario in the manner you used but I am happy to just move on!

 

[troylocker]

We have better defense than pretty much all of these. Which central midfielder capable of dictating the game do Liverpool, Chelsea and Spurs have as well? Midfield has never been Liverpool 's main strength. It's their attackers and fullback.

By this logic of yours we should be 6th every season then? You just made us the worst of all big teams in England!

Anyway, the point I said is we aren't facing Liverpool and Chelsea every week. 90% of our games are against midtable clubs and relegation fodder. We are better than these surely? The number of big games in a season is about 10-12 out of 38. You win the league by being consistent in the other 28 games against midtable and relegation fodders teams.

It's a defeatist mentality to conclude we have no chance to win the league or even challenge just because there are one or two teams better than us. So there's no hope to win it until we have the undisbuted best team in the league? Because it isn't happening any time soon, maybe ever.

I agree 100% with the bolded part.
It is possible to win the league with the squad we have now, but that would require luck (injuries, tight matches), momentum and other teams to "fail".
We are definitively in the mix this season, but we cannot expect to win it with this squad.

We don't make it any easier by going for all the competitions we enter either, but I still want us to try because that is what top clubs do. That's what we do! We want to win everything. I don't want to do it like Jose and go all in on one trophy and dismiss the rest.
It is a huge disadvantage to play 70 games a season in stead of 41, and that will result in some inconsistancy while we step by step strengthen the squad.

I see managers like Hasenhüttl get so much praise here now that So'ton had a good start to the league campain, but the premisses behind their results is very different to what the top clubs experiences:
They have played 14 matches this season including a 0-2 home defeat to Brentford in the League cup. They've had a full week of preparations and recovery between each match, and has only had to send a handfull of players away for the national breaks as well. This is of course a gigantic advantage in the league compared to us (and the other top clubs), playing our 20th match of the season tonight, still in the League cup and in EL and 90% of our players have played up to 6 matches for their NTs in the same period. It's not hard to imagine that this gives us less time and quality in the training field, time for preparations and restitution and increases the risk of injuries, but this is what top teams do and this is why a quality squad with depth is so important. The last window was a little dissapointing, but we are not that far off.

So far this season has been highs and lows as expected, but Ole is a winner and I think it is possible for him make us winners again. Sacking him in the middle of his 2nd full season would not be fair based on the results we've had the last 10 months. We will know a lot more about where this is going 6 months from now. Reevaluate then.

 

[el3mel]

It's not defeatist at all, you are so dramatic


You must literally have thought we win the league every season since Fergie went because this is how you are coming across,

"doesn't matter we can do it, our squad as good as the rest give us the trophies nai I'm a born winner not defeatist like the rest'


Wishing and thinking a title challenge is not actually reality how football works just because you think you are holding these high High standards in your head.

Whatever, saying we have no chance to win the league just because we don't have the undisputed best team in the league is a defeatist mentality for me. You win the league by consistently defeating teams that are much worse than you not by just being better than Liverpool or City. It's definitely possible.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

Sure. I mean it’s not like you’re still going on about it weeks afterwards, and now another post banging on about it again now.

No bees here.

At least you’re not denying the hypocrisy.

I just did a search of your username + strawman. No bees, just trying to back up my own statements with facts when asked. But I guess that’s inconvenient for you, and I’m only “banging on about it”. Funny how that works.

 

[Skåre Willoch]

I don't think your examples point to a hypothetical scenario in the manner you used but I am happy to just move on!

I agree it’s not in the exact same manner, but I still stand for whatever point I was trying to make. Upon re-reading my post I said “yes”about you doing the same thing, and that was not the intention. Sorry about that. My point was, and always were, about Mr. Strawman.

 

[Bobcat]

I don't see that many people hating Ole here, Regulus certainly isn't one of them. He separates art from artist, so it's clear he has nothing against Ole the legend, the man and the ex player. But he doubts him as a manager as many others do, so to suggest he'd whinge even if we win the league is certainly a wind up too far, in my opinion.

I doubt its aimed at him though. Has a bit ornery at times, but hes not one of the "PE teacher/failed Cardiff manager" crowd

 

[el3mel]

Regulus has been probably my most favorite poster to read his posts recently. I enjoy everything he writes, personally, whether I agree or disagree with it.

 

[Flexdegea]

Whatever, saying we have no chance to win the league just because we don't have the undisputed best team in the league is a defeatist mentality for me. You win the league by consistently defeating teams that are much worse than you not by just being better than Liverpool or City. It's definitely possible.

Exactly the manager has shown he can beat teams higher in the league and with better squads and superior more experienced managers.

I'm quite confident going into most big matches we can win them. It's football after it it's not set in stone black and white this team beats this team. Maybe that some delusion on my part but thinking that doesn't mean I also think we can win the league too.


Doesn't meant because I don't think Ole can win us the league this season it's defeatist, thats just a absolutely ridiculous take on it. More realistic thought than anything.

 

[el3mel]

Exactly the manager has shown he can beat teams higher in the league and with better squads and superior more experienced managers.

I'm quite confident going into most big matches we can win them. It's football after it it's not set in stone black and white this team beats this team. Maybe that some delusion on my part but thinking that doesn't mean I also think we can win the league too.


Doesn't meant because I don't think Ole can win us the league this season it's defeatist, thats just a absolutely ridiculous take on it. More realistic thought than anything.

The point I'm making is this squad is good enough to put a good title challenge and even win it all, because simply we're better than 90% of the league, regardless of Liverpool being better than us or not. We're not facing Liverpool every game, most of our games are against clubs much worse than us. To win the league you have to be consistent in beating such rubbish teams not just being better than your direct rivals. You can lose to Liverpool home and away and still win the league. It's a points game and all it matters to win it all is to be consistent in your other 26-28 matches a season against midtable clubs and fodders. Are we better than these by a long margin ? Yes, so this squad is good enough at the moment to put a title challenge.

Ruling this out and considering top 4 again to be just progress for me isn't the right set of mentality at all. You can't set the mentality around the club that the only way to win the league is to have the best squad among top teams.

I think I made it clear by this.

 

[Flexdegea]

The point I'm making is this squad is good enough to put a good title challenge and even win it all, because simply we're better than 90% of the league, regardless of Liverpool being better than us or not. We're not facing Liverpool every game, most of our games are against clubs much worse than us. To win the league you have to be consistent in beating such rubbish teams not just being better than your direct rivals. You can lose to Liverpool home and away and still win the league. It's a points game and all it matters to win it all is to be consistent in your other 26-28 matches a season against midtable clubs and fodders. Are we better than these by a long margin ? Yes, so this squad is good enough at the moment to put a title challenge.

Ruling this out and considering top 4 again to be just progress for me isn't the right set of mentality at all. You can't set the mentality around the club that the only way to win the league is to have the best squad among top teams.

I think I made it clear by this.

And everyone else has made it clear. You keep labelling people who are backing the manager as defeatist like big group of same folk. You love a generalisation.


The whole mentality bit is funny. Its Like someone saying you get on highly strung and emotional about the manager and team anytime we draw even, hardly a good mentality either is it

 

[el3mel]

And everyone else has made it clear. You keep labelling people who are backing the manager as defeatist like big group of same folk. You love a generalisation.


The whole mentality bit is funny. Its Like someone saying you get on highly strung and emotional about the manager and team anytime we draw even, hardly a good mentality either is it

I said it's funny overall the people who are supporting the manager the most are also the one who are handling the expectations and trying to lower it down whenever someone says we should challenge for the title by immediately saying the team isn't as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. If you support a manager to stay you should be believing he's capable of delivering the big prices in the future. Supporting him by lowering expectations and convincing everyone getting top 4 is progress is a pretty weird perspective of supporting a manager. You don't believe he can win the big prize with the current team but you want him to stay regardless ? Doesn't make any kind of sense. You support a manager then you absolutely believe in his abilities to win things.

The defeatist mentality is about completely ruling out a possibility of a title challenge just because there're one or two teams better than us in the league, yes it's defeatist for me no matter how I look into it.

 

[Flexdegea]

I said it's funny overall the people who are supporting the manager the most are also the one who are handling the expectations and trying to lower it down whenever someone says we should challenge for the title by immediately saying the team isn't as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. If you support a manager to stay you should be believing he's capable of delivering the big prices in the future. Supporting him by lowering expectations and convincing everyone getting top 4 is progress is a pretty weird perspective of supporting a manager. You don't believe he can win the big prize with the current team but you want him to stay regardless ? Doesn't make any kind of sense. You support a manager then you absolutely believe in his abilities to win things.

The defeatist mentality is about completely ruling out a possibility of a title challenge just because there're one or two teams better than us in the league, yes it's defeatist for me no matter how I look into it.

Again who these people you talk off?


Nearly everyone who backing the manager has said they expect a strong finish to season improvement on last season as being realistic. Anything else hes gone. Some have said a title challenge, some not expecting it, but to generalise myself but nearly every single one has said they want a title next season with another 2 windows or he pretty much gone depending on how this season goes first.

Not everyone is massively overrating the squad like you are just to hammer the manager more.

Bunch of losers haven't got that winning mentality you need, lowering standards that pretty much been none existent anyway for 8 years, sorry for the defeatist ending

 

[el3mel]

Again who these people you talk off?


Nearly everyone who backing the manager has said they expect a strong finish to season improvement on last season as being realistic. Anything else hes gone. Some have said a title challenge, some not expecting it, but to generalise myself but nearly every single one has said they want a title next season with another 2 windows or he pretty much gone depending on how this season goes first.

Not everyone is massively overrating the squad like you are just to hammer the manager more.

Bunch of losers haven't got that winning mentality you need, lowering standards that pretty much been none existent anyway for 8 years, sorry for the defeatist ending

I didn't generalize though. In my early post I said many say this but some aren't.

I honestly like in general how many people supporting Ole are the first ones who try to lower the expectations and tell everyone we're not as good as Liverpool, City and Chelsea. I guess since you support a manager you'll be certain he's capable of landing a big prize thus you support him but it seems the opposite, they believe top 4 is good enough progress and we're not capable of winning the league any time soon, so that if we win it's a massive overachievement and if we don't and get top 4 it's more in the line. Weirdest aspect of supporting a manager I have seen if you ask me. Sure some aren't that but there're definitely many of Ole supporters here who are the first to jump in to control any high expectations.

I mean it's not my problem the way you interpret my words.

 

[Zen86]

I think that’s a fair claim Zen, My default position has always been one of huge doubt over this appointment. The start of the first season through to December was my fears coming true. But I like Ole a lot, he is a club legend and seems like a really nice bloke.
So when I see a ray of light I absolutely tend to knee-jerk into the path of thinking maybe just maybe. But so far every time I start to knee-jerk that way we have a way of kicking me right in the balls immediately for it.

Fair enough.

For me personally, while I think the club is in a much healthier state now than it was 18 months ago, and we’ve generally been on an upwards trajectory since Ole took over, the lack of consistency and patchiness in our form worries me. I don’t know if he’ll win silverware for us, but I’m confident he’ll leave the club in a better state than he inherited it.

 

[NJM78]

This place if we don't beat a team with 1 point from 36 and only 1 goal from open play.

Seriously though we cannot not win this.

 

[Anybody's Guess]

At what point does he go: Hey, lads, let's forget about that whole play out from the back thing.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Just sack him. Start like crap again!
I am sick of seeing us gift goals first half every game!

 

[smi11ie]

Straight after kick off he plants his behind on the seat, crosses his arms and tucks his chin into his jacket. Meanwhile Wilder is out there trying to get his team to start with the right attitude. Maybe if Ole starts with a positive aggresive attitude his team will do also.

 

[TheMitz]

We go behind ....... It's not Ole 's fault, it's the players

come back in the second-hand ...... Ole is the saviour

Rinse
Repeat

 

[Rajma]

We have deluded set of fans, no wonder Ole is in his 3rd year with us already.

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Just sack him. Start like crap again!
I am sick of seeing us gift goals first half every game!

you are such a troll

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Imagine trailing to the team rock bottom on 1 point from 12 games. Regardless of whether we end up winning the game, we should not be starting so ridiculously poor again. It's nearly every single match now.

 

[Rado_N]

Putting aside the myriad other reasons, he deserves to be sacked simply for continuing to have us playing out from the back in spite of it clearly not working for howeverfeckinglong.

 

[laughtersassassin]

We conceed first every game. I'd get rid of him for that alone

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

you are such a troll

I guess you think we play well. Deluded then!

 

[luke511]

Matic and Pogba has never fecking worked, they both take way too long to move the ball. Solskjaer's useless, he doesn't pay attention to combinations and tactics that work and to the ones that don't.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Matic/Pogba is a sackable offence in its own right, and that's before you get in to the insane decision to bring Pogba back into the side when his agent starts being a cnut despite him having been shit all season.

 

[Rightnr]

you are such a troll

Stop writing dumb posts.

 

[Zen86]

It’s taken less than 20 minutes this week

 

[ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg]

Stop writing dumb posts.

take your own advice

 

[izec]

Sack him already. If he cant get this team fired up in the first half, there is no point. We wont change 20 players. Find someone the majority of the team runs through the wall.

 

[Russky14]

Matic and Pogba has never fecking worked, they both take way too long to move the ball. Solskjaer's useless, he doesn't pay attention to combinations and tactics that work and to the ones that don't.

Bang on. Fecked up v PSG, then Leipzig, no balls v City.

Yep the players love him - boys boys boys. But he has no pattern of play, no game plan, poor in game mgmt.

Coaching is non-existent. Just plain shite.

No one team is really firing & we have an opportunity as a club to finish 2nd this season......................................... if we had the right manager end of. No chance with super sub Ole in charge.

 

[TrueRed79]

The slow starts. The obvious lack of intensity. The wrong midfield. I've had enough.

 

[Russky14]

There we go individual brilliance to get Ole out of jail.