[Janson]

Martial aside the majority of the attack is sufficiently experienced I'd say to not need Rooney. And Rooney's experience doesn't really cover for his drawbacks. I thought Bournemouth was actually a really good showcase of the good and bad of Rooney. When the game was really open he was decent and moved the ball in to space well enough. Once it got tighter he struggled. Personally can't see many teams being as open as Bournemouth were.

That's your opinion and I respect it but imo(which is a big minority) Rooney isn't as bad as people make out. Like I said in the post below, I don't think he should still be with us next season but I think in a situation like this when we need someone to replace the leadership and experience of Ibra to lead the line, I think he's the man.

Loosing Ibra is a blow and one I think that Mou has left us exposed too. Despite a fair few opportunities to give Rashford time up front when we've been ahead in matches we didn't take the chances/have played Ibra in so many games that he's not really in the ideal form/confidence to step up to the role. Hopefully, if he does get the nod over Rooney which I doubt, he'll step back in well. In some ways I think if he does play even if he isn't quite as sharp as we'd want, his ability to stretch the game/run the channels will open space for the players behind him in a way that Ibra doesn't really do as much.

I agree Rahford should have got more game time upfront, obviously in less important games but it would still have given Mourinho some indication of how he would do in that position. Now this leaves us vulnerable in Ibras absence. Regarding Rashford upfront, I think the biggest problem would be not being able to make the ball stick upfront and less possession because of it.

 

[Janson]

I didn't actually see the Bournemouth game so can't comment on that. If so .. I guess that's good. I would personally love to see Rooney find his form again and prove us all wrong - he's given so much to the club in his time. I just don't see it. Hence why I'd like to see Rashford in there, he's the future, he needs the game time.

As for leadership .. I think there should be enough in the side with the likes of Mkh, Mata, Carrick, Herrera, Pogba etc (obviously depending on who is actually picked on any given day).

Me personally, I'm a person who finds great value in experience, hence preferring Rooney. Not saying he should be here next season no way, but I still think he has something to offer in situations like this when we need someone to step up. I don't know really, I just hope whoever gets picked can do enough to replace what Zlatan brings.

 

[dirkey]

That's your opinion and I respect it but imo(which is a big minority) Rooney isn't as bad as people make out.



I agree Rahford should have got more game time upfront, obviously in less important games but it would still have given Mourinho some indication of how he would do in that position. Now this leaves us vulnerable in Ibras absence. Regarding Rashford upfront, I think the biggest problem would be not being able to make the ball stick upfront and less possession because of it.

I agree that perhaps there won't be as much possession .. or hold up play bringing others into the game. However I would hope that his movement would actually open up spaces, pull defenders out of position, allow the likes of Martial and Mkh more room to run at people with the ball. We'll see. We'll definitely miss Ibra's presence and goal scoring nous.

 

[dirkey]

Me personally, I'm a person who finds great value in experience, hence preferring Rooney. Not saying he should be here next season no way, but I still think he has something to offer in situations like this when we need someone to step up. I don't know really, I just hope whoever gets picked can do enough to replace what Zlatan brings.

Ah yeah, that's fair enough. I do also .. I just think there's enough in there and I think Rooney is that bad that his leadership isn't enough to merit a place in the side.

But as you say .. let's just hope whoever comes in, whatever combination is picked .. is enough to get the job done.

 

[Janson]

I agree that perhaps there won't be as much possession .. or hold up play bringing others into the game. However I would hope that his movement would actually open up spaces, pull defenders out of position, allow the likes of Martial and Mkh more room to run at people with the ball. We'll see. We'll definitely miss Ibra's presence and goal scoring nous.

Yeah, agree with everything you say here.

 

[RedMaestro]

Dude you can bend at twist it all you like but it won't change the fact that he's been wasteful as fek. He's missed more clear cut chances than anyone else in EPL and that he's taken more shots than anyone else, sure I'm not denying he's scored against Zorya, Fayenoord, St. Etienne, Northampton, Reading and West Ham without their key players in league Cup.

But as I said it won't change the chances he's missed.

You pulled out Messi and Ronaldo's SpG ratio, okay but show us their total goal sum as well. They are both far more clinical in front of goal and not to mention they had 5+ season each where they bagged 60 plus. Also I think they've scored more goals in their careers so far than Ibrahimovic has up until now even tho he is few years older than the both of them.

Us relaying on Zlatan who will be 36 next year and it will be even harder for him to deliver, will get us even more frustrated.

Well, if you can only be satisfied with players if they're at Messi's and Ronaldo's level, you're never going to be happy. Does the goal sum really matter? Barcelona and Real Madrid are also stronger as a team - Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta, Modric, Kroos, Bale etc. Messi and Ronaldo has a higher SpG ratio, doesn't that mean that they'll score less than Ibra if they take as much shots, or am I totally mistaken? I showed their total SgG ratio because I couldn't post the image via i.e. Imgur, I did not want to post all their numbers. No one's denying the fact that he's missed a lot, but he's not supposed to score all of the goals. The others have missed as well in the team.

But ok, I'll make a list of their last 3 seasons in the league, I'll even pick his La Liga season and his last Serie A season so you won't say Ligue 1 is an easy league - do what you will with the information :

Messi: 16/17 this far:Total shots: 115, Shots on target: 48 - Goals: 23
15/16: Total shots: 158, Shots on target: 75 - Goals: 26
14/15: Total shots: 187, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 43
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 198, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 50
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 163, Shots on target: 86 - Goals: 34

Ronaldo: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 117, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 18
15/16: Total shots: 227 shots, Shots on target: 98 - Goals: 35
14/15: Total shots: 225, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 48
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 264, Shots on target: 102 - Goals: 46
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 211, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 26

Ibrahimovic: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 109, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 15
15/16: Total shots: 155, Shots on target: 81 - Goals: 38
14/15: Total shots: 92, Shots on target: 52 - Goals: 19
11/12 last season in Milan: Total shots: 141, Shots on target: 67 - Goals: 28
09/10 Barcelona: Total shots: 100, Shots on target: 44 - Goals: 16

This is also his first season in a new league and he's 35 years old. His stats look better in the cups this season:
Europa League: Total Shots: 21, Shots on target: 9 - Goals: 5
EFL Cup: Total Shots: 17, Shots on target: 11 - Goals: 4
FA Cup: Total Shots: 1, Shots on target: 1 - Goals: 1
Not a real competition but Community Shield: Total Shots: 2, Shots on target: 2 - Goals: 1

Apart from Messi's 11/12 season which was "inhuman", the 3 of them have basically similar "outcome". And stats should be looked at after the season's done, it's better to see. Who knows, maybe he'll score on every chance he gets in his last games this season and will therefore "improve" the stats.

Oh and I would like to add that I'm sorry but conversing with you is like I'm doing this with an opponent fan. Feels strange to "argue" about your own player and "finding" things to constantly criticise him about. I've discussed similar things with a lot of opponent fans but not with someone who follows the same team.

 

[Janson]

Ah yeah, that's fair enough. I do also .. I just think there's enough in there and I think Rooney is that bad that his leadership isn't enough to merit a place in the side.

But as you say .. let's just hope whoever comes in, whatever combination is picked .. is enough to get the job done.

That's your opinion and I respect it. If he does play Rashford though, at least we will get some kind of idea how we would fare with a different type of striker upfront. Although it would be unfair to expect to much of him since he's had very little game time as a striker.

 

[Fracture90]

Well, if you can only be satisfied with players if they're at Messi's and Ronaldo's level, you're never going to be happy. Does the goal sum really matter? Barcelona and Real Madrid are also stronger as a team - Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta, Modric, Kroos, Bale etc. Messi and Ronaldo has a higher SpG ratio, doesn't that mean that they'll score less than Ibra if they take as much shots, or am I totally mistaken? I showed their total SgG ratio because I couldn't post the image via i.e. Imgur, I did not want to post all their numbers.

But ok, I'll make a list of their last 3 seasons in the league, I'll even pick his La Liga season and his last Serie A season so you won't say Ligue 1 is an easy league - do what you will with the information :

Messi: 16/17 this far:Total shots: 115, Shots on target: 48 - Goals: 23
15/16: Total shots: 158, Shots on target: 75 - Goals: 26
14/15: Total shots: 187, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 43
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 198, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 50
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 163, Shots on target: 86 - Goals: 34

Ronaldo: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 117, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 18
15/16: Total shots: 227 shots, Shots on target: 98 - Goals: 35
14/15: Total shots: 225, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 48
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 264, Shots on target: 102 - Goals: 46
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 211, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 26

Ibrahimovic: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 109, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 15
15/16: Total shots: 155, Shots on target: 81 - Goals: 38
14/15: Total shots: 92, Shots on target: 52 - Goals: 19
11/12 last season in Milan: Total shots: 141, Shots on target: 67 - Goals: 28
09/10 Barcelona: Total shots: 100, Shots on target: 44 - Goals: 16

This is also his first season in a new league and he's 35 years old. His stats look better in the cups this season:
Europa League: Total Shots: 21, Shots on target: 9 - Goals: 5
EFL Cup: Total Shots: 17, Shots on target: 11 - Goals: 4
FA Cup: Total Shots: 1, Shots on target: 1 - Goals: 1
Not a real competition but Community Shield: Total Shots: 2, Shots on target: 2 - Goals: 1

Apart from Messi's 11/12 season which was "inhuman", the 3 of them have basically similar "outcome".

Oh and I would like to add that I'm sorry but conversing with you is like I'm doing this with an opponent fan. Feels strange to "argue" about your player and "finding" things to criticise him about. I've discussed similar things with a lot of opponent fans but not with someone who follows the same team.

Be kind and remind me please who mentioned Ronaldo and Messi first? Was it you or was it I? You mentioned them first and than you're singling out some examples in which Zlatan had better stats than them.

Again as I said you can bend it and twist it all you like but it won't change anything.

Ibrahimovic had a chance to play with Barcelona with world class players, but obviously something didn't fit and he was cut.

You can try to villainize me all you want but the fact that I want what's best for UTD is the reason I'm not so stoked with having a wasteful 35 year old striker untouchable.

 

[RedMaestro]

Be kind and remind me please who mentioned Ronaldo and Messi first? Was it you or was it I? You mentioned them first and than you're singling out some examples in which Zlatan had better stats than them.

Again as I said you can bend it and twist it all you like but it won't change anything.

Ibrahimovic had a chance to play with Barcelona with world class players, but obviously something didn't fit and he was cut.

You can try to villainize me all you want but the fact that I want what's best for UTD is the reason I'm not so stoked with having a wasteful 35 year old striker untouchable.

Singling out? I don't understand? I've written down, their last 3 season's and even added his performances from both La Liga (to compare with them) and Serie A too (which is stronger league than Ligue 1).

What's wrong with mentioning Ronaldo and Messi? You clearly will only be satisfied if Ibrahimovic is as good as them. Who's bending and twisting? Feels like you're overly defensive.

All I'm saying is that, despite having missed a lot he's doing what he's always done and it's no different then the 2 best players in the history of football (at least not that different, and he's changing teams all the time, which makes it more difficult to have a good Chemistry with teammates on the pitch - Messi and Ronaldo for example have been in the same teams for a long time) . The season isn't over yet, so he can also improve his stats. And last but not least, he's performed well despite having missed a lot, scored a whole lot more than the other players in the team, created most chances in the team in all competitions. Not a bad player and frankly, unless, Lewandowski, Suarez or someone similar will be available I think it's strange to constantly criticising him.

But everyone's different. I prefer to look at the players good sides instead of searching for faults.

You're no villain, but you're clearly taking the role of a "victim". I thought we were discussing. If you want what's best for the team, why don't you want to keep the best goalscorer in the team, despite his age?

Just to be clear, I don't like the fact that he constantly plays full 90 minutes, but that's surely Mourinho's fault and not Ibra's?

 

[Fracture90]

Singling out? I don't understand? I've written down, their last 3 season's and even added his performances from both La Liga (to compare with them) and Serie A too (which is stronger league than Ligue 1).

What's wrong with mentioning Ronaldo and Messi? You clearly will only be satisfied if Ibrahimovic is as good as them. Who's bending and twisting? Feels like you're overly defensive.

All I'm saying is that, despite having missed a lot he's doing what he's always done and it's no different then the 2 best players in the history of football (at least not that different, and he's changing teams all the time, which makes it more difficult to have a good Chemistry with teammates on the pitch - Messi and Ronaldo for example have been in the same teams for a long time) . The season isn't over yet, so he can also improve his stats. And last but not least, he's performed well despite having missed a lot, scored a whole lot more than the other players in the team, created most chances in the team in all competitions. Not a bad player and frankly, unless, Lewandowski, Suarez or someone similar will be available I think it's strange to constantly criticising him.

But everyone's different. I prefer to look at the players good sides instead of searching for faults.

You're no villain, but you're clearly taking the role of a "victim". I thought we were discussing. If you want what's best for the team, why don't you want to keep the best goalscorer in the team, despite his age?

Dude seriously you need to make up your mind.

First you bring Messi and Ronaldo in this discussion. I ask for their total goals scored on which you complain I'll never be happy if he's not on their level. Than when I say you're pulling out just few season stats, you ask me what's wrong with mentioning them 2.


Absolutely nothing will change the fact that he's wasteful, you've seen the chances he's squandered.

Props to him for goals he's scored but he's static on the pitch, almost pedestrian like, dropping deep too often, leaving our wingers and fullbacks with no target man in the box.

Oppo teams set their back line almost at the center due to them having no fear whatsoever that they'll get exposed for it because he's so slow.

What annoys me is not that he's wasteful but that he never gets subbed so that other players can step up and try something. That and his monopoly on freekicks. We get it he scored once but he took 50 of those.

 

[Fracture90]

@RedMaestro dude to cut this short and wrap it up, need to head out for a cold one, CL football starting soon.

I assume you have watched all our games this season.

In your opinion after watching all our games and seeing the chances he's missed, stats saying he's missed 17 big chances as well as him having quite poor conversion rate.

Would you say he's been wasteful or not?

 

[RedMaestro]

Dude seriously you need to make up your mind.

First you bring Messi and Ronaldo in this discussion. I ask for their total goals scored on which you complain I'll never be happy if he's not on their level. Than when I say you're pulling out just few season stats, you ask me what's wrong with mentioning them 2.


Absolutely nothing will change the fact that he's wasteful, you've seen the chances he's squandered.

Props to him for goals he's scored but he's static on the pitch, almost pedestrian like, dropping deep too often, leaving our wingers and fullbacks with no target man in the box.

Oppo teams set their back line almost at the center due to them having no fear whatsoever that they'll get exposed for it because he's so slow.

What annoys me is not that he's wasteful but that he never gets subbed so that other players can step up and try something. That and his monopoly on freekicks. We get it he scored once but he took 50 of those.

I really don't understand why you're getting upset? I already explained why I mentioned Messi and Ronaldo. I also said that their total goals scored will clearly be higher since they've taken more shots and Ibra's SpG is lower than theirs so if he had the same amount of goalchances as them wouldn't that mean he would also score a lot? You didn't answer that question - and I'm asking because I'm not an expert in SgG and stats like these.

What do you mean by "pulling out" stats? It's their last 3 season's, nothing I've made up. Do you Think that Ibra does the things on the pitch without Mourinho's permission? Don't you Think Mourinho would tell Ibra to not drop Deep, if it's wrong? And I hope you're aware of why he drops Deep? He's a really good striker for a pedestrian - I've never understood the fascination with a player constantly running. What's so good about that? Isn't the goals more importan, than him running? Mourinho's obviously satisfied with him. I'm curious, if you're this upset with Ibrahimovic, who's had a pretty strong season, what's your opinion on the other players, some of which have had a rather "mediocre" season.

But it's clear that you have a personal "vendetta" against Ibrahimovic and you don't want to discuss like a normal person and you're even trying to Point out "alleged" mistakes I've written in my post instead of contributing in a good way. I don't like him taking free-kicks either- but the truth is that he's scored twice - have the others scored yet? No one can score free-kicks in the amounts of penalties, they're likely going to be misses.

Let's just agree to disagree. But I'm supporting all of the players in the team - good or bad. I haven't forgotten the state of this team after Sir Alex left the "throne".

 

[RedMaestro]

@RedMaestro dude to cut this short and wrap it up, need to head out for a cold one, CL football starting soon.

I assume you have watched all our games this season.

In your opinion after watching all our games and seeing the chances he's missed, stats saying he's missed 17 big chances as well as him having quite poor conversion rate.

Would you say he's been wasteful or not?

Of course he has, but so has the rest of the team. But no one score every chance they get. No one...

 

[Fracture90]

I really don't understand why you're getting upset? I already explained why I mentioned Messi and Ronaldo. I also said that their total goals scored will clearly be higher since they've taken more shots and Ibra's SpG is lower than theirs so if he had the same amount of goalchances as them wouldn't that mean he would also score a lot? You didn't answer that question - and I'm asking because I'm not an expert in SgG and stats like these.

What do you mean by "pulling out" stats? It's their last 3 season's, nothing I've made up. Do you Think that Ibra does the things on the pitch without Mourinho's permission? Don't you Think Mourinho would tell Ibra to not drop Deep, if it's wrong? And I hope you're aware of why he drops Deep? He's a really good striker for a pedestrian - I've never understood the fascination with a player constantly running. What's so good about that? Isn't the goals more importan, than him running? Mourinho's obviously satisfied with him. I'm curious, if you're this upset with Ibrahimovic, who's had a pretty strong season, what's your opinion on the other players, some of which have had a rather "mediocre" season.

But it's clear that you have a personal "vendetta" against Ibrahimovic and you don't want to discuss like a normal person and you're even trying to Point out "alleged" mistakes I've written in my post instead of contributing in a good way. I don't like him taking free-kicks either- but the truth is that he's scored twice - have the others scored yet? No one can score free-kicks in the amounts of penalties, they're likely going to be misses.

Let's just agree to disagree. But I'm supporting all of the players in the team - good or bad. I haven't forgotten the state of this team after Sir Alex left the "throne".

As I said you can try to villainize and antagonize me all you want.

Fact is you pulled out Messi and Ronaldo and than when I asked for their total goals scored, you said this "Well, if you can only be satisfied with players if they're at Messi's and Ronaldo's level, you're never going to be happy".

How is that being defensive or getting upset is beyond me tbh.

If anything that bolded part is you being defensive for no reason. I said it from day one that I don't like we're relying on 35 year old that's infamous for his ego and bad mojo he brings to the team. On wiki you have examples of him bullying his teammates and creating bad atmosphere and general bigger than life attitude.

The way you accusing me for personal vendetta I can accuse you of being immensely biased towards him.

 

[Fracture90]

Of course he has, but so has the rest of the team. But no one score every chance they get. No one...

Someone showed the stat in which he missed only 3 big chances less than the rest of the team.

Problem is when you come to UTD and brag about being the "God of Manchester" and than go on to miss sitters, the focus will be on you.

 

[RedMaestro]

As I said you can try to villainize and antagonize me all you want.

Fact is you pulled out Messi and Ronaldo and than when I asked for their total goals scored, you said this "Well, if you can only be satisfied with players if they're at Messi's and Ronaldo's level, you're never going to be happy".

How is that being defensive or getting upset is beyond me tbh.

If anything that bolded part is you being defensive for no reason. I said it from day one that I don't like we're relying on 35 year old that's infamous for his ego and bad mojo he brings to the team. On wiki you have examples of him bullying his teammates and creating bad atmosphere and general bigger than life attitude.

The way you accusing me for personal vendetta I can accuse you of being immensely biased towards him.

Again, I've already replied you on your total goals question, but you keep repeating this. So I don't understand what you mean. Are you deliberately trying to not understand me or what? Because you've confused me.

Instead of answering questions or continuing a debate you're just being defensive. It's no use talking to you. Hope you'll enjoy the CL today anyway. Have a good one.

 

[Fracture90]

People talk about Ibra's SpG, but I think they might be forgetting what these numbers look like for Messi and Ronaldo.

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11119/History/Lionel-Messi Messi, career average: 4.9 SpG

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/5583/History/Cristiano-Ronaldo Ronaldo, career average: 6.8 SpG

https://www.whoscored.com/Players/3281/History/Zlatan-Ibrahimovic Ibra, career average: 4.2 SpG

You mentioning Messi and Ronaldo in reference to Zlatan's SpG.

Dude you can bend at twist it all you like but it won't change the fact that he's been wasteful as fek. He's missed more clear cut chances than anyone else in EPL and that he's taken more shots than anyone else, sure I'm not denying he's scored against Zorya, Fayenoord, St. Etienne, Northampton, Reading and West Ham without their key players in league Cup.

But as I said it won't change the chances he's missed.

You pulled out Messi and Ronaldo's SpG ratio, okay but show us their total goal sum as well. They are both far more clinical in front of goal and not to mention they had 5+ season each where they bagged 60 plus. Also I think they've scored more goals in their careers so far than Ibrahimovic has up until now even tho he is few years older than the both of them.

Us relaying on Zlatan who will be 36 next year and it will be even harder for him to deliver, will get us even more frustrated.

Me asking if we can get their total goal scored while you're at it, only appropriate since you've showed their career average.

Well, if you can only be satisfied with players if they're at Messi's and Ronaldo's level, you're never going to be happy. Does the goal sum really matter? Barcelona and Real Madrid are also stronger as a team - Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta, Modric, Kroos, Bale etc. Messi and Ronaldo has a higher SpG ratio, doesn't that mean that they'll score less than Ibra if they take as much shots, or am I totally mistaken? I showed their total SgG ratio because I couldn't post the image via i.e. Imgur, I did not want to post all their numbers. No one's denying the fact that he's missed a lot, but he's not supposed to score all of the goals. The others have missed as well in the team.

But ok, I'll make a list of their last 3 seasons in the league, I'll even pick his La Liga season and his last Serie A season so you won't say Ligue 1 is an easy league - do what you will with the information :

Messi: 16/17 this far:Total shots: 115, Shots on target: 48 - Goals: 23
15/16: Total shots: 158, Shots on target: 75 - Goals: 26
14/15: Total shots: 187, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 43
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 198, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 50
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 163, Shots on target: 86 - Goals: 34

Ronaldo: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 117, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 18
15/16: Total shots: 227 shots, Shots on target: 98 - Goals: 35
14/15: Total shots: 225, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 48
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 264, Shots on target: 102 - Goals: 46
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 211, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 26

Ibrahimovic: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 109, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 15
15/16: Total shots: 155, Shots on target: 81 - Goals: 38
14/15: Total shots: 92, Shots on target: 52 - Goals: 19
11/12 last season in Milan: Total shots: 141, Shots on target: 67 - Goals: 28
09/10 Barcelona: Total shots: 100, Shots on target: 44 - Goals: 16

This is also his first season in a new league and he's 35 years old. His stats look better in the cups this season:
Europa League: Total Shots: 21, Shots on target: 9 - Goals: 5
EFL Cup: Total Shots: 17, Shots on target: 11 - Goals: 4
FA Cup: Total Shots: 1, Shots on target: 1 - Goals: 1
Not a real competition but Community Shield: Total Shots: 2, Shots on target: 2 - Goals: 1

Apart from Messi's 11/12 season which was "inhuman", the 3 of them have basically similar "outcome". And stats should be looked at after the season's done, it's better to see. Who knows, maybe he'll score on every chance he gets in his last games this season and will therefore "improve" the stats.

Oh and I would like to add that I'm sorry but conversing with you is like I'm doing this with an opponent fan. Feels strange to "argue" about your own player and "finding" things to constantly criticise him about. I've discussed similar things with a lot of opponent fans but not with someone who follows the same team.

Uhm you mentioned them 2 buddy, I just asked for their total goals sum. If you as me I'm ok with Zlatan but it want him subbed when he's poor.

Also if you're showing career long SpG I think you need to show total goal scored in order for us to have a better picture.

Be kind and remind me please who mentioned Ronaldo and Messi first? Was it you or was it I? You mentioned them first and than you're singling out some examples in which Zlatan had better stats than them.

Again as I said you can bend it and twist it all you like but it won't change anything.

Ibrahimovic had a chance to play with Barcelona with world class players, but obviously something didn't fit and he was cut.

You can try to villainize me all you want but the fact that I want what's best for UTD is the reason I'm not so stoked with having a wasteful 35 year old striker untouchable.

My response after which you resort to going after me comparing me with oppo fans, being defensive etc.

And all that just because I politely asked for Ronaldo and Messi goals scored for bigger picture and only after you brought them 2 up.

But if you say it's me being defensive....Okay I guess.

Anyway, thank you and you to have a nice evening.

 

[RedMaestro]

You mentioning Messi and Ronaldo in reference to Zlatan's SpG.



Me asking if we can get their total goal scored while you're at it, only appropriate since you've showed their career average.



Uhm you mentioned them 2 buddy, I just asked for their total goals sum. If you as me I'm ok with Zlatan but it want him subbed when he's poor.

Also if you're showing career long SpG I think you need to show total goal scored in order for us to have a better picture.



My response after which you resort to going after me comparing me with oppo fans, being defensive etc.

And all that just because I politely asked for Ronaldo and Messi goals scored for bigger picture and only after you brought them 2 up.

But if you say it's me being defensive....Okay I guess.

Anyway, thank you and you to have a nice evening.

Thank you. Ok, I Think I understand what you mean. Do you mean total goals in all their careers or? Because I've written down their total goals per season I've shown in the league. That's why I don't understand what total goals you want me to show. I also never denied mentioning Messi and Ronaldo, just said that it just be allowed to do mention them as well.

You're right, he should be subbed off when playing poorly. I actually never understand why Mourinho keeps him on. He either has full trust in him or it's for Ibra's heading abilities and being able to hold on to the ball, giving the team time to move up the pitch. He clearly wants someone like that and he can't switch him with Fellaini, then their won't be a striker. And if Rashford comes in then the physical type will be missed. Don't really know, just guessing.

It wasn't my intention to seem "mean" if so I apologise. I was trying to be as polite as possible, but also trying to ask questions and let you understand my way of thinking.

Which game do you recommend I should watch today (CL)? Doesn't matter to me that much, but I would like to see a game.

 

[Mike09]

Well, if you can only be satisfied with players if they're at Messi's and Ronaldo's level, you're never going to be happy. Does the goal sum really matter? Barcelona and Real Madrid are also stronger as a team - Neymar, Suarez, Iniesta, Modric, Kroos, Bale etc. Messi and Ronaldo has a higher SpG ratio, doesn't that mean that they'll score less than Ibra if they take as much shots, or am I totally mistaken? I showed their total SgG ratio because I couldn't post the image via i.e. Imgur, I did not want to post all their numbers. No one's denying the fact that he's missed a lot, but he's not supposed to score all of the goals. The others have missed as well in the team.

But ok, I'll make a list of their last 3 seasons in the league, I'll even pick his La Liga season and his last Serie A season so you won't say Ligue 1 is an easy league - do what you will with the information :

Messi: 16/17 this far:Total shots: 115, Shots on target: 48 - Goals: 23
15/16: Total shots: 158, Shots on target: 75 - Goals: 26
14/15: Total shots: 187, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 43
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 198, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 50
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 163, Shots on target: 86 - Goals: 34

Ronaldo: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 117, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 18
15/16: Total shots: 227 shots, Shots on target: 98 - Goals: 35
14/15: Total shots: 225, Shots on target: 99 - Goals: 48
11/12, to compare with Ibra's last season in Italy, Milan: Total shots: 264, Shots on target: 102 - Goals: 46
09/10, to compare with Ibra's Barca season: Total shots: 211, Shots on target: 94 - Goals: 26

Ibrahimovic: 16/17 this far: Total shots: 109, Shots on target: 43 - Goals: 15
15/16: Total shots: 155, Shots on target: 81 - Goals: 38
14/15: Total shots: 92, Shots on target: 52 - Goals: 19
11/12 last season in Milan: Total shots: 141, Shots on target: 67 - Goals: 28
09/10 Barcelona: Total shots: 100, Shots on target: 44 - Goals: 16

This is also his first season in a new league and he's 35 years old. His stats look better in the cups this season:
Europa League: Total Shots: 21, Shots on target: 9 - Goals: 5
EFL Cup: Total Shots: 17, Shots on target: 11 - Goals: 4
FA Cup: Total Shots: 1, Shots on target: 1 - Goals: 1
Not a real competition but Community Shield: Total Shots: 2, Shots on target: 2 - Goals: 1

Apart from Messi's 11/12 season which was "inhuman", the 3 of them have basically similar "outcome". And stats should be looked at after the season's done, it's better to see. Who knows, maybe he'll score on every chance he gets in his last games this season and will therefore "improve" the stats.

Oh and I would like to add that I'm sorry but conversing with you is like I'm doing this with an opponent fan. Feels strange to "argue" about your own player and "finding" things to constantly criticise him about. I've discussed similar things with a lot of opponent fans but not with someone who follows the same team.

Can you get Costa, Suarez, Aguero, Lewandowski stats instead? because they are strikers just like Ibra and their main duty are scoring goals and finishing their chances while Ronaldo and Messi aren't no 9 or striker.

 

[Janson]

I really don't understand why you're getting upset? I already explained why I mentioned Messi and Ronaldo. I also said that their total goals scored will clearly be higher since they've taken more shots and Ibra's SpG is lower than theirs so if he had the same amount of goalchances as them wouldn't that mean he would also score a lot? You didn't answer that question - and I'm asking because I'm not an expert in SgG and stats like these.

What do you mean by "pulling out" stats? It's their last 3 season's, nothing I've made up. Do you Think that Ibra does the things on the pitch without Mourinho's permission? Don't you Think Mourinho would tell Ibra to not drop Deep, if it's wrong? And I hope you're aware of why he drops Deep? He's a really good striker for a pedestrian - I've never understood the fascination with a player constantly running. What's so good about that? Isn't the goals more importan, than him running? Mourinho's obviously satisfied with him. I'm curious, if you're this upset with Ibrahimovic, who's had a pretty strong season, what's your opinion on the other players, some of which have had a rather "mediocre" season.

But it's clear that you have a personal "vendetta" against Ibrahimovic and you don't want to discuss like a normal person and you're even trying to Point out "alleged" mistakes I've written in my post instead of contributing in a good way. I don't like him taking free-kicks either- but the truth is that he's scored twice - have the others scored yet? No one can score free-kicks in the amounts of penalties, they're likely going to be misses.

Let's just agree to disagree. But I'm supporting all of the players in the team - good or bad. I haven't forgotten the state of this team after Sir Alex left the "throne".

Don't bother with him, seriously. Don't you see he's just dodging all your questions and he's clearly not up for discussion in a civil manner. He's just repeating the same thing over and over again.

 

[Fracture90]

Thank you. Ok, I Think I understand what you mean. Do you mean total goals in all their careers or? Because I've written down their total goals per season I've shown in the league. That's why I don't understand what total goals you want me to show. I also never denied mentioning Messi and Ronaldo, just said that it just be allowed to do mention them as well.

You're right, he should be subbed off when playing poorly. I actually never understand why Mourinho keeps him on. He either has full trust in him or it's for Ibra's heading abilities and being able to hold on to the ball, giving the team time to move up the pitch. He clearly wants someone like that and he can't switch him with Fellaini, then their won't be a striker. And if Rashford comes in then the physical type will be missed. Don't really know, just guessing.

It wasn't my intention to seem "mean" if so I apologise. I was trying to be as polite as possible, but also trying to ask questions and let you understand my way of thinking.

Which game do you recommend I should watch today (CL)? Doesn't matter to me that much, but I would like to see a game.

Yeah, thought it would be appropriate to go along with their career average of SpG.

I don't hate the guy tbh, I quite enjoyed him in Inter on PES06 alongside Adriano

Just want him to be subbed when he's poor, Mourinho to have same standards for everyone (praise, criticism etc) and to stop choking all them freekicks.

It's cool, we had a nice discussion, exchanging our different views.

My suggestion is Napoli vs. Madrid, game will be lit. Arsenal vs. Bayern will be just a formality seeing it through.

 

[RedMaestro]

Can you get Costa, Suarez, Aguero, Lewandowski stats instead? because they are strikers just like Ibra and their main duty are scoring goals and finishing their chances while Ronaldo and Messi aren't no 9 or striker.

Sure, I've done a list (just the league), it took a while - don't know how many seasons back you want but I've done 8 seasons and here goes:
Total shots (TS) Shots on target (SoT) Goals (G)

Costa:
16/17: TS: 75 - SoT: 34 - G: 17
15/16: TS: 28 - SoT: 28 - G: 12
14/15: TS: 76 - SoT: 37 - G: 20
13/14: TS: 108 - SoT: 54 - G: 27
12/13: TS: 50 - SoT: 23 - G: 10
11/12: TS: 45 - SoT: 21 - G: 10
10/11: TS: 27 - SoT: 14 - G: 6
09/10: TS: 73 - SoT: 27 - G: 8

Lewandowski:
16/17: TS: 89 - SoT: 35 - G: 19
15/16: TS: 152 - SoT: 74 - G: 30
14/15: TS: 105 - SoT: 42 - G: 17
13/14: TS: 117 - SoT: 60 - G: 20
12/13: TS: 98 - SoT: 53 - G: 24
11/12: TS: 119 - SoT: 55 - G: 22
10/11: TS: 80 - SoT: 29 - G: 8
Couldn't find anything for 09/10, anyway Polish League, so maybe not a good comparison.

Aguero:
16/17: TS: 85 - SoT: 36 - G: 12
15/16: TS: 119 - SoT: 52 - G: 24
14/15: TS: 148 - SoT: 62 - G: 26
13/14: TS: 86 - SoT: 43 - G: 17
12/13: TS: 86 - SoT: 36 - G: 12
11/12: TS: 130 - SoT: 52 - G: 23
10/11: TS: 125 - SoT: 55 - G: 20
09/10: TS: 86 - SoT: 41 - G: 12

Suarez:
16/17: TS: 79 - SoT: 36 - G: 20
15/16: TS: 137 - SoT: 70 - G: 40
14/15: TS: 75 - SoT: 36 - G: 16
13/14: TS: 181 - SoT: 81 - G: 31
12/13: TS: 187 - SoT: 72 - G: 23
11/12: TS: 128 - SoT: 48 - G: 11
10/11: TS: 55 - SoT: 23 - G: 4 Half a season.
09/10 is the Dutch League, maybe not a good comparison.

To be fair, if we're going to be picky then we should also compare Ibra with players that have the similar phyisque, i.e. Andy Carroll. Got a bit dizzy, hopefully haven't written down anything wrong.

Edit: Don't know if it's important now, but thought I'd put in Ibra's 8 seasons as well if you want to compare:

Ibrahimovic:
16/17: TS: 109 - SoT: 43 - G: 15
15/16: TS: 155 - SoT: 81 - G: 38
14/15: TS: 92 - SoT: 52 - G: 19
13/14: TS: 161 - SoT: 73 - G: 26
12/13: TS: 157 - SoT: 69 - G: 30
11/12: TS: 141 - SoT: 67 - G: 28
10/11: TS: 116 - SoT: 55 - G: 14
09/10: TS: 100, SoT: 44 - G: 16

Don't know if this will be interesting but thought I'd put in Didier Drogba's Chelsea season's to compare with Ibrahimovic, since I think he's the closest one to him, "style-wise".

Drogba:
11/12: TS: 65 - SoT: 21 - G: 5
10/11: TS: 150 - SoT: 51 - G: 11
09/10: TS: 178 - SoT: 67 - G: 29
08/09: TS: 58 - SoT: 17 - G: 5
07/08: TS: 58 - SoT: 29 - G: 8
06/07: TS: 111 - SoT: 46 - G: 20
05/06: TS: 65 - SoT: 35 - G: 12
04/05: TS: 64 - SoT: 32 - G: 10

 

[dirkey]

That's your opinion and I respect it. If he does play Rashford though, at least we will get some kind of idea how we would fare with a different type of striker upfront. Although it would be unfair to expect to much of him since he's had very little game time as a striker.

What a pleasure, and indeed a novelty these days on this forum to disagree with someone .. have a conversation about it, without the words "fanboy" or "hater" bandied about.

 

[RedMaestro]

Don't bother with him, seriously. Don't you see he's just dodging all your questions and he's clearly not up for discussion in a civil manner. He's just reapeting the same thing over and over again.

I like to discuss and learn as much as possible because I love this sport. It doesn't matter if they don't share my views, as long you contribute to a good discussion, I'm satisfied. If not, then I really don't care.

 

[Ban]

Actually it is and the fact that he's got 3 or more shots on goal per match more than anyone else, plus the clear cut chances he's missed tells that our team is primarily providing for him. That and the fact he's never subbed shows there's no backup plan and our game is designed to suit him.

Most game plans of most teams are usually set up to acommodate more a striker, especially a lone striker than other players. And as for United it's actually not that dramatic that our game depends on him imo.
The fact he doesn't get subbed doesn't mean we don't have a backup plan too.

 

[Ban]

Jose was very stupid against Bournemouth. Mourinho does not manage the game itself very well, his subs do more harm than good quite often. It was obvious that Ibra would have gotten the ban at HT, Jose and the team could easily see that on replays. He was also not mentally fit to continue the game but okay, that might be debatable. Anyway the only smart decision was to take him off at HT so he could at least get some rest before Rostov.
Now he played the full game, in which he hasn't done great, more like hindered the team really. And now he goes to Russia, where he must play and must play the full 90 minutes, because he is suspended in league&cup.

It's quite the opposite but carry on.

 

[Vilev]

It's quite the opposite but carry on.

Any examples? Cause i can easily tell you when that was true. The last game against Bournemouth where subs did not improve us, in fact we were much more dominant before. Or Everton when we lost 2 points because of these subs. Or Arsenal. Yet i struggle to remember when Jose managed actually to win the game with subs.

 

[Ban]

Any examples? Cause i can easily tell you when that was true. The last game against Bournemouth where subs did not improve us, in fact we were much more dominant before. Or Everton when we lost 2 points because of these subs. Or Arsenal. Yet i struggle to remember when Jose managed actually to win the game with subs.

So you tell me there weren't games in which we were better in 2nd half or after subs and won?
Also cause of which subs we lost 2 points to Everton and Arsenal?

 

[Fracture90]

Most game plans of most teams are usually set up to acommodate more a striker, especially a lone striker than other players. And as for United it's actually not that dramatic that our game depends on him imo.
The fact he doesn't get subbed doesn't mean we don't have a backup plan too.

All good dude, that's your opinion.

So you tell me there weren't games in which we were better in 2nd half or after subs and won?
Also cause of which subs we lost 2 points to Everton and Arsenal?

Fellaini vs. Everton, vs. Arsenal subbing off Martial than moving Rashford on LW when he was already tired going up against fresh of the bench Oxlade-Chamberlain.

 

[Ban]

All good dude, that's your opinion.



Fellaini vs. Everton, vs. Arsenal subbing off Martial than moving Rashford on LW when he was already tired going up against fresh of the bench Oxlade-Chamberlain.

Everton, ok, these things happen.
As for Arsenal if we had a better reaction in defense or if we had scored an oportunity or 2 we would have won. So that one sub can't be called as a reason we lost 2 points.

 

[Fracture90]

Everton, ok, these things happen.
As for Arsenal if we had a better reaction in defense or if we had scored an oportunity or 2 we would have won. So that one sub can't be called as a reason we lost 2 points.

Thing is, Rashford was visibly more spent than Martial was. He could have also brought in Lingard if he wanted more defensive player.

Also he subbed of Mata for Schneiderlin and sent him up high in moments when we needed Mata to keep possession.

Saying if we had scored more can be applied to every game we played, irrelevant if we won it or not.

PS: Znaš kako kažu, da je baba imala kitu, bila bi deda

 

[FrantikChicken]

Sorry for bumping this and if it's already been picked up.
But the reason they score own goals is because it's harder to miss the target than score so you're arguing against yourself here

umm...How is it easier? hahaha The goal is in only one direction, the not-goal is in literally every other direction. Anyway this is long gone I'm not discussing it anymore.

 

[Ban]

Thing is, Rashford was visibly more spent than Martial was. He could have also brought in Lingard if he wanted more defensive player.

Also he subbed of Mata for Schneiderlin and sent him up high in moments when we needed Mata to keep possession.

Saying if we had scored more can be applied to every game we played, irrelevant if we won it or not.

PS: Znaš kako kažu, da je baba imala kitu, bila bi deda

Da baba ima kotače bila bi autobus.

Ok I get it, but there were games in which he changed our shape and our subs changed the game.
All I'm saying is, unlike LVG and some other managers, he's a manager who instantly reacts if something doesn't work. Sometimes he doesn't get it right, sometimes he does. More often he gets it right imo.
Ibra should be subbed from time to time, that's true.

 

[Fracture90]

Da baba ima kotače bila bi autobus.

Ok I get it, but there were games in which he changed our shape and our subs changed the game.
All I'm saying is, unlike LVG and some other managers, he's a manager who instantly reacts if something doesn't work. Sometimes he doesn't get it right, sometimes he does. More often he gets it right imo.
Ibra should be subbed from time to time, that's true.

Ofc, not every sub was bad. Vs. Boro he brought Mata on and he went on to help us turn the game around.

Subbing Zlatan off once in a while would be nice, heck maybe even productive.

Haha morala bi na sve četiri onda

 

[Ban]

Ofc, not every sub was bad. Vs. Boro he brought Mata on and he went on to help us turn the game around.

Subbing Zlatan off once in a while would be nice, heck maybe even productive.

Haha morala bi na sve četiri onda

Ma dobar je Zemo, samo kad ima loš dan onda ima stvarno loš dan.

Time for Rashford (I hope) to take his chance.

 

[Fracture90]

Ma dobar je Zemo, samo kad ima loš dan onda ima stvarno loš dan.

Time for Rashford (I hope) to take his chance.

True, just hope Mourinho doesn't stick Rooney up front.

Maybe a good chance to try with 2 forwards.

Nemam ja ništa protiv njega da budem iskren, odličan je on fudbaler, samo ne gotivim to što ga Murinjo apsolutno nikada ne menja.

 

[Ban]

True, just hope Mourinho doesn't stick Rooney up front.

Maybe a good chance to try with 2 forwards.

Nemam ja ništa protiv njega da budem iskren, odličan je on fudbaler, samo ne gotivim to što ga Murinjo apsolutno nikada ne menja.

2 forwards, don't see it happening. But could be a good choice, maybe vs Boro and WBA. Not vs Chelsea, and vs Rostov Ibra will play cause he isn't banned.

 

[Fracture90]

2 forwards, don't see it happening. But could be a good choice, maybe vs Boro and WBA. Not vs Chelsea, and vs Rostov Ibra will play cause he isn't banned.

Yep Ik about Rostov, ban is only for competitions under the FA.

For Chelsea match I think he'll start Rooney for his experience, eventually bringing in Rashford depending on result.

 

[Mike09]

Thanks a lot. That was more than good enough. It seems Zlatan has been wasting too many chances if we compare it with those current top 4 strikers in the world. Aguero didn't have a great season this season but in the past he's been clinical. I also do believe that we have won many games thanks to Ibra but at the same times we drew many games because of him missing a lot of chances.

@RedMaestro

 

[SirScholes]

umm...How is it easier? hahaha The goal is in only one direction, the not-goal is in literally every other direction. Anyway this is long gone I'm not discussing it anymore.

As you said, defenders often score own goals, is that because it's easier to clear the ball? No because it wouldn't make sense.