[Jazz]

Just listened to Pilip de Brun's take on this, and he said according to his sources ag the club there was no bust up. Says Martial found out fairly last minute that he wasn't in the squad then went to Paris instead. He thinks Jose was trying to deliver some kind of message to Martial. I guess he wasn't impressed with his performance against Liverpool. Personally, I thought Martial started very well but Liverpool saw the threat and adjusted to it by tripling up on him, and no player can deal with that, its up to the team to take advantage of the space that opens up in other areas. I think Jose is being far too harsh on him.

Interestingly, he also suggests that he's heard from those around Shaw that he might be suffering from depression, that he's not mentally right. He also noticed the downfall of Depay after Shaw got his leg break. Our left flank is such a mess this season. We may see Jose buy a whole new left wing this summer.

I know a bit off topic but I was privately wondering if this was the case with Shaw. He's not mentally tough in the best of times. The young lads like Shaw, Martial, Rashers and even Pogba could actually use a different personality to help them. SAF apparently has been told he can drop by at Carrington whenever he wants. Why don't the club approach Jose and ask him if SAF could have some informal talks with the lads? He's the best sort of personality for this.
Hell, even though unpopular with most of the Caf, I actually think LVG would have been better for the young lads. He's got lots of empathy, and would have taken care of Shaw I think.
Jose might think of adding someone else to his back room staff who has experience of working with the young ones? There's nothing wrong with doing that.

 

[Jazz]

Martial's bad period started during the Euro's and he seems to have stayed in that state, nothing to do with Mourinho in my opinion.

He's missing LVG

 

[Adisa]

It would be incredible if for some reason or another, we can't get the best out of Martial, Rashford and Shaw. What a monumental waste that would be.

 

[Janson]

I think Mourinho picks on what he's seen. And that's fair. Martial hasn't done himself justice this season and doesn't help himself by the way he can be fairly static and wait for the ball to get to him, instead of trying to create space for others by making off the ball runs. That's not going to endear himself to any manager, no matter how good he is at dribbling. It's not as though Mourinho's the only manager to lose patience with him, despite last season's performances. He's managed to marginalise himself for France too. He's yong and lernin and has to do more to earn his place back, for club and country.

People don't seem to factor in that what Mourinho sees in training is also a basis on what decisions he makes for matches, while we only see them play in actual matches.

 

[Chuckazulu]

Can somebody check his defensive stats in comparison to the other players that have featured on the left wing? The problem could be our left back situation not being as good as Valencia who can cover the whole right side.

We all know Martial is not a typical winger but one that drifts inside (inside forward). At the moment he's being forced to remain wide for cover but this isn't working out at all for him hence his form has significantly declined. Plus, he could be the worst at covering in comparison to the other 'left wingers'.

Fix the left back position and let the left forwards drift inside. Could be the solution to his bad form.

 

[Mike09]

Interesting to hear some posters saying he had a good game vs Liverpool - that wasn't what I saw. He looked bright in the first 10 mins but then faded completely before getting substituted early - this was also when he was facing a young full-back playing his first ever league game for Liverpool. Hardly inspiring.

He was ripping the young full back apart. Lovren and Henderson had to help him to stop Martial. It took 3 players to stop Martial.
Check it out.


He can't just do all of these in first 10 min. He was the source of danger in that game. Beat him men, good link up play, helping the defense, create a chance for Ibra, even the counter attack in second half that Mkhytaryan should had take a shot was from him winning the ball back. The young full back got beaten many times. And he does the job by himself because Darmian didn't seem much care to go forward, if only we have Valencia version of left back Martial could have done even more.

 

[balaks]

He was ripping the young full back apart. Lovren and Henderson had to help him to stop Martial. It took 3 players to stop Martial.
Check it out.


He can't just do all of these in first 10 min. He was the source of danger in that game. Beat him men, good link up play, helping the defense, create a chance for Ibra, even the counter attack in second half that Mkhytaryan should had take a shot was from him winning the ball back. The young full back got beaten many times. And he does the job by himself because Darmian didn't seem much care to go forward, if only we have Valencia version of left back Martial could have done even more.

If you honestly think that was a good performance from him then I think our standards are quite different. He looked good for a while at the start but produced very little of substance. I'm not saying he is a bad player but if you are using his performance vs Liverpool as a barometer of his quality I think you are making a mistake.

 

[whatwha]

Any particular reason why there's so many new pages of posts in this thread?

 

[balaks]

Any particular reason why there's so many new pages of posts in this thread?

I'm assuming it's because he was dropped from the match day squad in the last match.

 

[RedChip]

I'm assuming it's because he was dropped from the match day squad in the last match.

The new Herrera must play...

 

[Zoo]

If you honestly think that was a good performance from him then I think our standards are quite different. He looked good for a while at the start but produced very little of substance. I'm not saying he is a bad player but if you are using his performance vs Liverpool as a barometer of his quality I think you are making a mistake.

Because they started putting two or three people on him to protect their young fullback and Darmian provides very little support on that left flank.

 

[sugar_kane]

I don't think his agent mouthing off has helped.

While you could argue Martial can't be held responsible for what his agent says you can guarantee that were he to have a word he might keep his mouth shut, given that he's his very valuable client.

 

[Cassidy]

From what I can remember he started the season in the 11 (first few games), played poorly, lost his place and has been struggling for form since.
Mourinho obviously trusts him to an extent as he has started vs Arsenal Spurs and Liverpool at home recently. But he isn't performing consistently and thats why he is in and out of the team. We also have other players who play in his position under Mou Mhiki, Rashford, Lingard, Mata all occupying wide positions you are not going to play every week unless you're performing.

One thing to also note is that Martial doesn't want to play out wide, and that could also be causing an issue.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I really like Martial, last season he showed his quality and ability for the most part, and I think we would all agree it was an excellent start to his United career. I still think he is a really special player, and could be one of the world's best, but I think there are a few things concerning his performances this season.

The first is the issues surrounding his personal life. Everything that was going on at the start of the season regarding his ex-wife and child will have had a huge effect on him, especially as he is actually still so young. Struggling with those personal problems were visibly affecting him on and off the pitch (in my opinion) and it is a very hard issue to move past. I think to some extent that may still be playing it's part in his life, although to a much less extent at the start of the season.

The second is his position on-field. Last year, although he played wide/inside left position, he also had a fair crack up front. This year, he has been exclusively deployed on the left, again either in a wide capacity or as an inside forward. Zlatan has banging the goals in and I think Rashford causes more problems up front as a 9 than Martial, so I can't see him getting a shot up front soon. I think he is at his most devastating from that left sided position anyway but he needs a run there, but he has not helped himself by not taking opportunities when playing there, leading to a very inconsistent run in the side. In addition though, he would benefit HUGELY by having a full-back who was willing to take the run down the outside and push on, which is something that Darmian exclusively DOESN'T do. If there was a runner (Blind? Shaw?) outside him, it would at least occupy the attention of the opposition's full-back or winger, and give Martial room to exploit the defense and create.

Finally, and as others have said, the impression I get is that he doesn't work hard enough for Jose at the moment, either in training or during games. Jose demands absolute effort, and if a player is not doing this, they will not get a consistent run. Take Fellaini for example. For all that the big man is marginalized, told he's not good enough, and that he's clumsy, he will always give his absolute effort and do exactly what is demanded of him by Jose. That's why the manager trusts him and gives him opportunities. I think if Martial demonstrated more of this he would get his fair opportunities and chances.

I don't buy into this bust up story or that Jose is giving him rough treatment, I think it is simply Jose is demanding the same from every player and he feels at the moment he is not getting this from Martial. If he can start demonstrating this in games and training he will get a fair run of games in no time. I also believe he needs help on the left when he gets a chance, and a better idea may be playing Blind in at LB with him and see if Martial performs better when someone is getting forward with him and providing an opportunity for more space. The lad is still young and learning the game, but I can see him fulfilling his potential with us if he knuckles down and find a suitable partner for him on the flank.

 

[Mike09]

If you honestly think that was a good performance from him then I think our standards are quite different. He looked good for a while at the start but produced very little of substance. I'm not saying he is a bad player but if you are using his performance vs Liverpool as a barometer of his quality I think you are making a mistake.

I don't know what kind of standard you want from a player to be called "good" against a tough opposition team like Liverpool who gave so much problems to more than half of our players. Overall he did more and better than Mkhytaryan in that game. In that game he was pretty much doing like what he normally did last season. Apart from him not having a shot due to lack and poor of service, that is one of the brightest performance of our player in that game.

If you think it wasn't "good" then in your category the only players who did "good" or above were De Gea and Valencia. Even player like Herrera was in debate as well. He was only good after 20th minute in first half only. Did nothing in second half, and started to do something after 81st min.

You are the one who were mistaken that you think I used one match performance as barometer of his quality.
I used his performance vs Liverpool to show that Jose was wrong to drop him against Stoke. A player who had his last three games with good performance should keep playing not being dropped or being left out from the squad.

 

[Red_toad]

Any particular reason why there's so many new pages of posts in this thread?

People creating drama!
No quotes or evidence just what is in their heads.

 

[Cantona_Forever]

Overall he did more and better than Mkhytaryan in that game.

Don't be silly.

 

[Janson]

He was ripping the young full back apart. Lovren and Henderson had to help him to stop Martial. It took 3 players to stop Martial.
Check it out.


He can't just do all of these in first 10 min. He was the source of danger in that game. Beat him men, good link up play, helping the defense, create a chance for Ibra, even the counter attack in second half that Mkhytaryan should had take a shot was from him winning the ball back. The young full back got beaten many times. And he does the job by himself because Darmian didn't seem much care to go forward, if only we have Valencia version of left back Martial could have done even more.

This is the only game of the season I haven't seen, so I can't form a definitive opinion on his performance. But from that video, most of the time he just dribbles until he loses the ball. That tackle to start the counter was good but he got the chance at the end of that sequence and missed the ball although the pass was over hit.

 

[Fracture90]

If you honestly think that was a good performance from him then I think our standards are quite different. He looked good for a while at the start but produced very little of substance. I'm not saying he is a bad player but if you are using his performance vs Liverpool as a barometer of his quality I think you are making a mistake.

Would you mind sharing with us who was in your opinon our best player / standout performer in that first half vs. Liverpool?

 

[Borden]

Interesting to hear some posters saying he had a good game vs Liverpool - that wasn't what I saw. He looked bright in the first 10 mins but then faded completely before getting substituted early - this was also when he was facing a young full-back playing his first ever league game for Liverpool. Hardly inspiring.

He was double/triple/quadruple marked every time he got the ball, and got next to no help from Darmian, so to say he merely faced 'a young full-back playing his first ever league game' is disingenuous at best.

Edit: I see others have commented on this, so never mind.

 

[Robertd0803]

While it seems something is up behind the scenes here its getting fairly annoying the amount of blame Jose is getting when no one knows what is going on. Maybe Martial himself isn't putting in enough effort in training or his attitude is poor or whatever.

 

[Mike09]

Don't be silly.

Nope. I watched the game twice and I captured every player's moment. The only good moment of Mkhytaryan in that game was in 18th min when he made through ball for Pogba's chance, in 57th min when he won the ball back by interception, in 63rd min when he won the ball back after Pogba lost the ball. The rest were just short/simple passes.

Ironically I have also mentioned Martial had a bad game straight after the game I posted it on this thread but after I watched the second time it was a good performance from him.

 

[Cantona_Forever]

Nope. I watched the game twice and I captured every player's moment. The only good moment of Mkhytaryan in that game was in 18th min when he made through ball for Pogba's chance, in 57th min when he won the ball back by interception, in 63rd min when he won the ball back after Pogba lost the ball. The rest were just short/simple passes.

Ironically I have also mentioned Martial had a bad game straight after the game I posted it on this thread but after I watched the second time it was a good performance from him.

OK. So you discount two good runs he made? One receiving through ball from Herrera and should have score. Another one he passed to Martial instead of shooting himself. Weren't those two runs are the runs that could change the game?

Even without those, what you mentioned he did were already more and better than what Martial did in that game already. Like I said, don't be silly.

What did Martial do exactly, apart from that overhit cross to Zlatan?

 

[balaks]

Would you mind sharing with us who was in your opinon our best player / standout performer in that first half vs. Liverpool?

I dont think anybody played particularly well but that isn't my point - his performance in that game was being described as being good and I disagreed - it may have been 'good' in comparison to some of his team mates but that doesnt mean it was a good performance. He is a much better player than he showed vs Liverpool.

 

[djdhrubs]

Obvious that Mourinho has a personal problem with Martial and Shaw. Hope that at least one of them get sorted out.

 

[Terminator]

Martial was being double and triple marked all game, only one who looked capable of troubling them. Yet Mourinho decides to take him off and we lost whatever potency we had.

 

[ash_86]

It's easy, hard work beats talent. He maybe the most gifted footballer ever, but he's going no where if attitude is not right. From the look of things, he seems to be in limbo.

 

[Mike09]

This is the only game of the season I haven't seen, so I can't form a definitive opinion on his performance. But from that video, most of the time he just dribbles until he loses the ball. That tackle to start the counter was good but he got the chance at the end of that sequence and missed the ball although the pass was over hit.

Hmm, I would like to point out three stuffs here:

first of all. In the game he had 5 attempts of take on and failed twice only. Him losing the ball was a bit unfair job to him. What Darmian did wasn't helping Martial at all. Look at one of his moment when he tried to take on players near the corner area or the edge of penalty box. Why Darmian was so far from Martial? Darmian wasn't even trying to go or even walk forward to help him or ask for pass back. The support from Darmian could make all of Martial's dribbles so much more efficient.

Second, it's not just about him beating his men and started counter attack. His overall play try to do link up and even his Defensive contribution were good in that game.

Third, that wasn't even called as a missed for Martial when there was a chance. Like what you said before the pass was over hit and the timing wasn't even right and why would Mkhytaryan tried to pass it which is harder since there were more people around Martial while shooting was the better option. Mkhytaryan's first touch let him down as well in that chance. You can't blame Martial for that he didn't put anything wrong in that moment.

 

[horsechoker]

Obvious that Mourinho has a personal problem with Martial and Shaw. Hope that at least one of them get sorted out.

We thought the same about Mkhi too, but look how that turned out. We also thought he would sell Mata. I think he's identified something he does not like in their style of play, I don't think it's personal and it's up to them to play their way back into the starting XI.

 

[LonelyFire]

There is a fragility to Martial that I think Mourinho is trying to break. He's a kid - the idea that he is the saviour of Man Utd and should be starting every game is plain wrong. It's not all about talent and underestimating the mental side of the game is what got us in this position in the first place.

His handling of Shaw is exactly the same. They either change personally or they will change club.

 

[Mike09]

OK. So you discount two good runs he made? One receiving through ball from Herrera and should have score. Another one he passed to Martial instead of shooting himself. Weren't those two runs are the runs that could change the game?

Even without those, what you mentioned he did were already more and better than what Martial did in that game already. Like I said, don't be silly.

What did Martial do exactly, apart from that overhit cross to Zlatan?

I think you are being silly here without noticing how crucial mistakes he made from the two good run.
I have to discounted both of his good run because the end product and the decision making to pass the ball were the big mistake and if he did better we could have scored and probably won the game.

First, there is no question that he had to take his chance when he had the chance against Mignolet. Missing a chance like that against Liverpool could be a punishment for the team.

Second, if it was the only chance he missed then I would have forgive him but the second one in second half was the worst one. His first touch was poor in that moment and he decided to pass the ball to Martial who had Liverpool's players around him. Mkhytaryan had a better position to take a shot than Martial at that time and the pass from Martial was over hit.

Final thing,
You clearly didn't watch the video at all and still replied it. He had 5 attempts take on, failed twice only. Had one cross for Ibra's chance, link up play with players, made a great block in our box, he made more Defensive contribution than Mkhytaryan in term of both quality and quantity and one last thing which what you missed was he was the one who started the counter attack by winning the ball back when Mkhytaryan had a chance to shoot but decided to pass it to Martial. The thing that makes even better is Martial had to play with Darmian who gave no support while Mkhytaryan had one of the best right back in PL on his side. And Martial had less minute.

I have mentioned this before but either you didn't read the post or you ignored it.

 

[Ra5hid]

Apparently missed training today, was not in any of the training pics and mentioned on the club website's training article.

 

[Janson]

Hmm, I would like to point out three stuffs here:

first of all. In the game he had 5 attempts of take on and failed twice only. Him losing the ball was a bit unfair job to him. What Darmian did wasn't helping Martial at all. Look at one of his moment when he tried to take on players near the corner area or the edge of penalty box. Why Darmian was so far from Martial? Darmian wasn't even trying to go or even walk forward to help him or ask for pass back. The support from Darmian could make all of Martial's dribbles so much more efficient.

Second, it's not just about him beating his men and started counter attack. His overall play try to do link up and even his Defensive contribution were good in that game.

Third, that wasn't even called as a missed for Martial when there was a chance. Like what you said before the pass was over hit and the timing wasn't even right and why would Mkhytaryan tried to pass it which is harder since there were more people around Martial while shooting was the better option. Mkhytaryan's first touch let him down as well in that chance. You can't blame Martial for that he didn't put anything wrong in that moment.

Darmian is under instructions from Mourinho to stay back. I agree Martial needs more help from the FB but he has other attackers and midfielders to link with. Look at the two sequences at the start of the clip where he had the chance to link with Pogba, but instead he went on himself only to lose the ball. He needs to pick his moments when to dribble better.

Maybe it's just me, but I have never been for dribblers. It's too risky no matter how good you're at it. I always prefer intelligent movement and link up play ahead of dribbling. See Chelsea after the Robben/Duff era with Malouda and Anelkas movement and hold up/link up play. You rarely saw one of those try to dribble yet their way of playing was effective, and they both had an eye for goal. Lingard for example, has good movement but he lacks overall quality to be a starter.

 

[whatwha]

People creating drama!
No quotes or evidence just what is in their heads.

Got it, thanks. Good old RedCafe. No need to go reading through 8 pages then.

 

[pascell]

He's really stagnated this season, I hope it's not down to his attitude otherwise he won't be here long.

 

[Mike09]

Darmian is under instructions from Mourinho to stay back. I agree Martial needs more help from the FB but he has other attackers and midfielders to link with. Look at the two sequences at the start of the clip where he had the chance to link with Pogba, but instead he went on himself only to lose the ball. He needs to pick his moments when to dribble better.

Maybe it's just me, but I have never been for dribblers. It's too risky no matter how good you're at it. I always prefer intelligent movement and link up play ahead of dribbling. Lingard for example, has good movement but he lacks overall quality to be a starter.

I'm not too sure about Darmian was under instruction to stay back. Obviously we can't confirm this but if it's true then shouldn't the blames of Martial's dribbles become less efficient is on Jose?? So Martial shouldn't be blamed for that. I have said this in a couple days ago that Jose used Martial in a wrong way. Darmian provides no support at all to Martial.

If you look at the clips. If I remember there are three attempts of link up play of him. One with Darmian which was successful (if you look at Darmian he had slow reaction with this link up) and the other one is with Darmian as well but Darmian's pass was overhit. And the last one was with Valencia. Look at the difference between Valencia's reaction and Darmian. Valencia reacted quickly when he saw Martial had the ball.
So he wasn't just dribbling. He did link up play as well in that game. He had defensive contribution as well and did counter attack. And there was one moment not in the video because it was an offside from Liverpool young full back but Martial dropped back and intercepted the pass in that offside moment.

 

[Cassidy]

He's really stagnated this season, I hope it's not down to his attitude otherwise he won't be here long.

I expected him to have a more difficult season this season tbh. Its normal for a player his age to be inconsistent and tbh last season he was way above the level you would normally expect of a player of his experience.
I think the quality is obviously there and hes just going through a inconsistent patch and it should, if the club and manager handle him properly work its self out.
Even this season his quality is there for all to see. Just needs to work on his consistency and variety of play.

EDIT: Losing the no9 and not getting games up front obviously things which would be effecting his moral too. So the attitude point will not all just be down to him also.

 

[Devil may care]

I have no idea who his or Shaw's agent are but both of them need to close their piehole's, who'd have thought we'd get less problem's from Raiola while Mkhi was in this position.

It would be incredible if for some reason or another, we can't get the best out of Martial, Rashford and Shaw. What a monumental waste that would be.

I don't think there will be an issue with Rashford, Jose clearly likes him and his attitude and workrate, he always talks about him using his first name, plus he knows the pressure to make sure he is a success due to him being not only an Academy player but local. He may not be the #9 some here want but he'll get plenty of game time under Jose.

There's a very simple and consistent rule with Jose's United,

If you don't consistently work your arse off, you will be dropped.

I think we can all agree this is a fairly respectable rule.

It's astonishing to think Jose still takes shit from everyone considering how he managed the Mikki situation. with the player himself even coming out to praise Jose at the end.

I think it's understandable that fans are concerned, he carried the bulk of our season last year and we love our fast, exciting wide players.

 

[Cassidy]

I have no idea who his or Shaw's agent are but both of them need to close their piehole's, who'd have thought we'd get less problem's from Raiola while Mkhi was in this position.

Whats the issue with his agent, I thought he just told the media to shutup? Unless I missed something

 

[Devil may care]

Whats the issue with his agent, I thought he just told the media to shutup? Unless I missed something

I'm sure He mouthed off before though and there were those negative articles in the press saying players were shocked by Jose criticizing Shaw after the Watford game that were clearly fed.