Champions League Round of 16 (14th Feb - 15th Mar)

SCP

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Fully agreed with both bolded parts mate, you're spot on right there. I just can't see Pep winning the CL with this City squad, and I haven't forgotten the games in which he played a suicidal high line while he should have known it wouldn't work. His Bayern side was top class but a top 3 team in the world with a top 3 coach in the world should reach the CL final at least once in three years. Mourinho would never be outcoached like Pep has been on several occassions imo.

With regards to Wenger, the fact that tonight's results isn't a surprise to some people (to me neither) says a lot - he has to work with a far inferior squad than Ancelotti (just look at Bayern's bench for this game) but you just know he wouldn't be able to cope with Bayern, like Arsenal never can these last few years. That's why I can't see them going far again in the CL under Wenger while I still hold some hope that Klopp can bring us far if he gets enough time to form his own squad, of course we're still lightyears away from that right now, I realize that and have no problem to admit that.
Ah ok, nothing personal I thought it would be an never ending discussion if Guardiola is overrated or the EPL the best in the world, tired of these discussions.

By the way Guardiola was outcoached so to say in Bayern for me only when they played the second leg against Madrid in 2014, in 2015 they lost the first leg in Barcelona because MSN was simply unstopable, and in 2016 in Munich in the first half they could be winning by 3/0 and missed a penalty, then in the only shot Atletico made in the second half they scored the away goal.

Details matter, we cannot just make analysis based on the results, that is what the British Media does without thinking why they won or lost, thinking that Arsenal problems are just money and lack of investment.

In the Champions League, even when you are coaching Bayern, Real or Barcelona you know that probably you will reach the last 4/8, but you cannot guarantee an victory.

Mourinho never outcoached, seriously?

Well just to remember in his second year at Madrid totally outcoached by Heynckes at the Bernabéu 4 days after beating Guardiola in the match of the title, who by the way was outcoached by Mourinho on that day, because Pep tried to play in 3/4/3 with Tello and failed.

But in 2011 Mourinho was humiliated at the Bernabéu by Guardiola when he played with 3 defensive midfielders, Pepe/Diarra/Alonso, with Ronaldo alone with 10 Madrid players behind the ball and Ronaldo screaming without touching the ball. In the Bernabéu, with Barcelona having 80% possesion, now that is outcoached?

Not to mention when Mourinho was totally raped in Dortmund by Klopp, with Lewandowsky scoring 4 goals, or completely humilliated by Simeone or even Blanc when he was at Chelsea, are you sure only Guardiola is outcoached at this level?

But you are right, Guardiola failed against Leicester, not so much because he played with an high defensive line, but mainly because he tried to play with 3 defenders and was always changing formations and players all weeks, and against Everton they used the same sistem who made them beat West Ham 5:0, and after they sufferd the first goal we watched the John Stones and Bravo horror show, sure he will need to bring new fullbacks, maybe an defensive midfielder or another central defender, but he will always play the high defensive line because that is the way he sees football, it is more hard and needs more inteligent players than Sagna, Clichy or Kolarov.

And the same thing will be applied to Klopp,he will be criticized because he wants to play pressing football,will need an better squad next season to play in Europe, and probably will get rid of players like Sturridge because they lack tactical inteligence, but at least he will try to play his way, that is why I respect him, Guardiola, even Mourinho, who being more conservative is trying different things now at United while everyone is saying he is outdated (comparing to Wenger he is an genius), but for the type of football I like, coaches like Emery, Tuchel, Sarri, Sampaoli or Pochettino are more atractive but they don't have the same number of titles, it is just opinion, but Wenger is out of this league now, he has to be respected but has to go.

No, to be fair I think 5 coaches of the Top 6 clubs in the EPL are amongst the elite coaches in Europe, what most surprises me is the fact that even Guardiola, Klopp or Pochettino struggle so much to impose their ideas, and it is schoking to see with the amount of money spent City plays much less than Barcelona or Bayern teams he coached.

If the coaches/managers are the same and they use the same methodologies and tactics, it can be only related to the individual quality of the players, but it should not be like this, why are players who come from France/Germany/Spain, still looking behind tactically when they are coached by elite coaches?

The day this questions are answered the English Premier League will normally recover his period of dominance, because they have the financial resources to bring players and elite coaches, but maybe they need to create their own elite players and coaches, also change the tactical development of young players and coaches, maybe less emphasy in the phisycal side and more on the technical and tactical component, without loosing the component of more agressive and direct football, not trying to bee an poor man's Tiki Taka, who knows?
 

Treble_Winning

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Arsenal are an embarrassment to all English clubs. They are so mediocre and average, this could've been predicted from a mile away. No other supposed top team receives thrashings as regularly as Arsenal. They are a shambles. How can a team repeatedly be thrashed season after season (starting from the 8-2 loss to UTD many years ago) and still not do anything about the way they play???

I hope the specialist in failure stays for another 5 years!

No doubt they will make it a priority to finish 4th again so they can qualify for the CL again only to get thrashed by another team next year??
 

Kant-ona

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Arsenal with the crucial away goal. Well done.

(Massive how a team is able to collapse within 11 minutes.)
 

Verbalkint

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Dreadful performance by Arsenal. Couldn't believe Ozil standing still while Robben waltzed his way to goal. I find it unbelievable that team don't close him down - we all know what he does on the right..he's a one trick pony but a damn good one at that. Same old run down the flank, cut inside, shoot with his left.

The defense was non existent, Bayern made everything look so easy. I hope Wenger stays for a long time at Arsenal. They're going to roll over year after year in February. Lots of fun for us, and a potential rival broken down.
 

PepG

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Ah ok, nothing personal I thought it would be an never ending discussion if Guardiola is overrated or the EPL the best in the world, tired of these discussions.

By the way Guardiola was outcoached so to say in Bayern for me only when they played the second leg against Madrid in 2014, in 2015 they lost the first leg in Barcelona because MSN was simply unstopable, and in 2016 in Munich in the first half they could be winning by 3/0 and missed a penalty, then in the only shot Atletico made in the second half they scored the away goal.

Details matter, we cannot just make analysis based on the results, that is what the British Media does without thinking why they won or lost, thinking that Arsenal problems are just money and lack of investment.

In the Champions League, even when you are coaching Bayern, Real or Barcelona you know that probably you will reach the last 4/8, but you cannot guarantee an victory.

Mourinho never outcoached, seriously?

Well just to remember in his second year at Madrid totally outcoached by Heynckes at the Bernabéu 4 days after beating Guardiola in the match of the title, who by the way was outcoached by Mourinho on that day, because Pep tried to play in 3/4/3 with Tello and failed.

But in 2011 Mourinho was humiliated at the Bernabéu by Guardiola when he played with 3 defensive midfielders, Pepe/Diarra/Alonso, with Ronaldo alone with 10 Madrid players behind the ball and Ronaldo screaming without touching the ball. In the Bernabéu, with Barcelona having 80% possesion, now that is outcoached?

Not to mention when Mourinho was totally raped in Dortmund by Klopp, with Lewandowsky scoring 4 goals, or completely humilliated by Simeone or even Blanc when he was at Chelsea, are you sure only Guardiola is outcoached at this level?

But you are right, Guardiola failed against Leicester, not so much because he played with an high defensive line, but mainly because he tried to play with 3 defenders and was always changing formations and players all weeks, and against Everton they used the same sistem who made them beat West Ham 5:0, and after they sufferd the first goal we watched the John Stones and Bravo horror show, sure he will need to bring new fullbacks, maybe an defensive midfielder or another central defender, but he will always play the high defensive line because that is the way he sees football, it is more hard and needs more inteligent players than Sagna, Clichy or Kolarov.

And the same thing will be applied to Klopp,he will be criticized because he wants to play pressing football,will need an better squad next season to play in Europe, and probably will get rid of players like Sturridge because they lack tactical inteligence, but at least he will try to play his way, that is why I respect him, Guardiola, even Mourinho, who being more conservative is trying different things now at United while everyone is saying he is outdated (comparing to Wenger he is an genius), but for the type of football I like, coaches like Emery, Tuchel, Sarri, Sampaoli or Pochettino are more atractive but they don't have the same number of titles, it is just opinion, but Wenger is out of this league now, he has to be respected but has to go.

No, to be fair I think 5 coaches of the Top 6 clubs in the EPL are amongst the elite coaches in Europe, what most surprises me is the fact that even Guardiola, Klopp or Pochettino struggle so much to impose their ideas, and it is schoking to see with the amount of money spent City plays much less than Barcelona or Bayern teams he coached.

If the coaches/managers are the same and they use the same methodologies and tactics, it can be only related to the individual quality of the players, but it should not be like this, why are players who come from France/Germany/Spain, still looking behind tactically when they are coached by elite coaches?

The day this questions are answered the English Premier League will normally recover his period of dominance, because they have the financial resources to bring players and elite coaches, but maybe they need to create their own elite players and coaches, also change the tactical development of young players and coaches, maybe less emphasy in the phisycal side and more on the technical and tactical component, without loosing the component of more agressive and direct football, not trying to bee an poor man's Tiki Taka, who knows?
Top post mate. Fully agree with everything you say.
 

MichaelKorleone

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Nicked this off Guardian comments

Alternative defending is a good contemporary way to describe it. Robben clearly takes inspiration from Blackadder:

Arjen Melchett: Field Marshal Ancelotti has formulated a brilliant new tactical plan to ensure final victory in the field.

Francis Blackadder: Ah. Would this brilliant plan cutting in on the left foot and shooting?

Captain Arsene Darling: How could you possibly know that, Blackadder? It's classified information!

Francis Blackadder: It's the same plan that he used last time and the seventeen times before that.

Arjen Melchett: Exactly! And that is what is so brilliant about it! It will catch the watchful Hun totally off guard! Doing precisely what we've done eighteen times before is exactly the last thing they'll expect us to do this time!
 

::sonny::

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Maradona trying to motivate Napoli players before the game against Real Madrid

 

giorno

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What's the matter with city fans and the CL anyways?
 

padr81

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That's because you aren't a "top" club.
Really, CL semi finalists last season and on course to finish above you for the 4th season in a row. I'll openly admit we're not a United, Barca, Real etc.. thats plain for everyone to see but to say we're not a top club these days is just pure bitterness and rubbish.
 

NK86

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Really, CL semi finalists last season and on course to finish above you for the 4th season in a row. I'll openly admit we're not a United, Barca, Real etc.. thats plain for everyone to see but to say we're not a top club these days is just pure bitterness and rubbish.
You are a club doing well in the laat few years. IMO that is not enough to be called a top club. You haven't had anything: the history, the players, the managers. There is nothing you have compared to the other top clubs. Things that actually make them what they are.

Aa for finishing above us for THREE years, qe had Moyes in charge and then with LVG we finished behind you on GD despite having one of our worst phases of play. That does not stop making us a top club just like finishing above us those three seasons make you one. If that were the case, Spurs would be making a case of that by now.

You are a rich club doing relatively well and in the rung below the likes of Barca, Madrid, Bayern, United, Milan etc. Those are the actual top clubs.
 

Bepi

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Porto at Dragao is going to be a stern test for Juve. We changed our system to a dynamic 4-2-3-1 with attacking resolution but we are not as good away as we are at home. I would say 0-1 to Juve here but 1-1 and even 1-0 Porto are all very possible. Fingers crossed.
 

padr81

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You are a club doing well in the laat few years. IMO that is not enough to be called a top club. You haven't had anything: the history, the players, the managers. There is nothing you have compared to the other top clubs. Things that actually make them what they are.

Aa for finishing above us for THREE years, qe had Moyes in charge and then with LVG we finished behind you on GD despite having one of our worst phases of play. That does not stop making us a top club just like finishing above us those three seasons make you one. If that were the case, Spurs would be making a case of that by now.

You are a rich club doing relatively well and in the rung below the likes of Barca, Madrid, Bayern, United, Milan etc. Those are the actual top clubs.
We are a top club now whether you guys like it or not. Of course we haven't the winning history of those clubs but fact is we're big news now by hook or by crook. We've got probably the biggest manager in the world or joint biggest with you guys and we haven't had the players in the past but we do now. We're much more important in modern football than the great "historical" clubs. We obviously haven't the fanbase of them but we're a top club in Europe in terms of everything now, even if we haven't said fanbase.

We're easily along with you guys the most written about club in the english media, one of the most televised and big news. How we got there has no relevance and neither has our history which we have 137 years of btw.

Just like PSG are now the biggest club in France (and Europe), we are among the most important clubs in europe atm and that makes us a top club albeit a smaller one than the clubs you mentioned. We're far more relevant in modern football than say Milan and the only Italian club who can say they are genuinely above us in terms of importance atm is Juve. Thats no disrespect to either Milan club(I adore them) but it is what it is and whether you like it or not we are a big part of modern football in England.

This history argument makes you sound like fans of another club some of you guys are so fond of bashing.
 

NK86

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We are a top club now whether you guys like it or not. Of course we haven't the winning history of those clubs but fact is we're big news now by hook or by crook. We've got probably the biggest manager in the world or joint biggest with you guys and we haven't had the players in the past but we do now. We're much more important in modern football than the great "historical" clubs. We obviously haven't the fanbase of them but we're a top club in Europe in terms of everything now, even if we haven't said fanbase.

We're easily along with you guys the most written about club in the english media, one of the most televised and big news. How we got there has no relevance and neither has our history which we have 137 years of btw.

Just like PSG are now the biggest club in France (and Europe), we are among the most important clubs in europe atm and that makes us a top club albeit a smaller one than the clubs you mentioned. We're far more relevant in modern football than say Milan and the only Italian club who can say they are genuinely above us in terms of importance atm is Juve. Thats no disrespect to either Milan club(I adore them) but it is what it is and whether you like it or not we are a big part of modern football in England.

This history argument makes you sound like fans of another club some of you guys are so fond of bashing.
Not at all. I still consider Liverpool a genuine top club. They don't have the team now but they are still talked about a lot. Man City, whether you want to agrer or not, do not have the same relevance as the genuine top clubs do.

I will make one last argument because you have a different definition to what constitutes a top club than me. You have a top team but aren't a top club, yet. A couple of PL titles don't change that. Such little success in Europe adds to it. Reaching a semi final in the last decade does not make you a top club.
 

padr81

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Not at all. I still consider Liverpool a genuine top club. They don't have the team now but they are still talked about a lot. Man City, whether you want to agrer or not, do not have the same relevance as the genuine top clubs do.

I will make one last argument because you have a different definition to what constitutes a top club than me. You have a top team but aren't a top club, yet. A couple of PL titles don't change that. Such little success in Europe adds to it. Reaching a semi final in the last decade does not make you a top club.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I would say PSG are a top club in Europe now, as are Chelsea as are City.
 

NK86

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Don't redefine the term "top club" to suit your agenda. Of course City's a top club. It's biased and--frankly speaking--daft to argue otherwise.
Why don't you look up Oxford and give me the definition of a top club then? Maybe you are the one who got the definition in there since you have your knickers in a bunch.
 

schwalbe

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City are definitely a top club, one could even argue they are more of a top club than united are at the moment. United are definitely the bigger club though.
Whether a club is a top club or not has very little to do with its history or number of supporters, the only thing that matters is its recent achievements and its competitiveness at the moment. For example AC Milan is anything but a top club currently.
 

Thisistheone

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Looking forward to watching Monaco in action tonight. But heard Bakayoko is out?? Shame.

Should be a good game though.
 

KN5

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Why are the boys up there talking about the definition of a top club on a CL thread, talk about the games, I'm sure they're far more interesting than if or if not City are a top club.
 

cyberman

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I think we'll have to agree to disagree, I would say PSG are a top club in Europe now, as are Chelsea as are City.
PSG are a top club because they win things, they dominate France.
Chelsea are only recently a top club imo. 5 titles and a couple of European titles in 12/13 years has lifted their profile.
City? Your last title win was overshadowed by Liverpools collapse. The defining images of that season is Gerrards slip and Crystanbul. You've never had a sustained period when you were the best side in the country.
What has made City a big club other than having more money than anyone else?
City have been all talk over the last 3/4 years. All what they might do instead of what they are doing.
All talk.
You might get there in a few years but it takes success to get there that fast.

Two good games this evening, I think all 4 teams will score and it'll be an exciting watch.
Ill part with more money on Paddy Power and hopefully it comes back in spades.
 

Eila

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PSG are a top club because they win things, they dominate France.
Chelsea are only recently a top club imo. 5 titles and a couple of European titles in 12/13 years has lifted their profile.
City? Your last title win was overshadowed by Liverpools collapse. The defining images of that season is Gerrards slip and Crystanbul. You've never had a sustained period when you were the best side in the country.
What has made City a big club other than having more money than anyone else?
City have been all talk over the last 3/4 years. All what they might do instead of what they are doing.
All talk.
You might get there in a few years but it takes success to get there that fast.

Two good games this evening, I think all 4 teams will score and it'll be an exciting watch.
Ill part with more money on Paddy Power and hopefully it comes back in spades.
PSG had 2 whole league titles before 2012 so they are very much what Chelsea were a few years back. They are a rather new club, too. Founded 1970.
 

VorZakone

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Hope Monaco can transfer their league form to Europe as well. We see too often that teams do well domestically but shit abroad.
 

MullerUtd

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I just hope tonight's games are not as one-sided as last week's games. City and Monaco should be a cracker, and I can see Juventus hammering Porto, although they tend to make it hard for themselves, so won't be surprised to see a score draw. I'm more interested in tomorrow's games to be honest. Sevilla vs Leicester.