Did you actually compare a midfielder and cb on their on the ball ability
. Smalling is a defender he is expected to be good at defending first and foremost. Fellaini is a midfielder he needs to be good on the ball first and foremost
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. Smalling is a defender he is expected to be good at defending first and foremost. Fellaini is a midfielder he needs to be good on the ball first and foremostIf I was Smalling, I'd hate Rojo. Not because he's better than me(he isn't), but because he has to be the luckiest defender in United history. Mistake after mistake is being made, yet they almost always magically go unpunished. The other day Rojo was made to look like a complete amateur on the counter. What happens? The striker slips...
Oh, and let's not forget his red card offenses(yes, plural) that magically went unpunished.
Oh, and let's not forget his red card offenses(yes, plural) that magically went unpunished.
I'm sure Sir Alex would rather have Smalling than Rojo in his squad.
I don't completely disagree i'm also not sure any of those teams would want Smalling, though you do underrate Smalling.
But i'm interested which defenders do you think that are good enough for Real, Bayern, Barca are out there that we could sign?
Rojo is potentially world class. Give him a run of games at CB and he can be as good as any other CB in England. He's by far our most improved player this season and considering IBRA has been our only really good player, I'd argue Rojo is second place in terms of consistency.
By the way, you keep saying "only United was in for him"... United is a massive club. He's already 'made it'. On top of that, you don't know if someone like Madrid or Atletico offered him a deal back then. For all you know, he chose United cause he was guaranteed first team football after the absence of Vidic, Rio and Evra. Its a no brainer.
We can sign anyone cause we have the money to do so.
I think Rojo and Bailly together is good enough. But if we were to attract a big name CB that doesn't play for the "big three", I would say Thiago Silva or someone like Glik, Koulibaly, Bonucci, Chiellini or Manolas would all be attainable. And then there's Van Dijk who I rate very highly.
Rojo, Jones, Bailly, > Smalling
All the best teams have good ball playing CBs. Pique, Ramos, Varane, Boateng, Chiellini, Bonucci.Did you actually compare a midfielder and cb on their on the ball ability
On top of all that, Fellainis duties usually aren't to give Iniesta-like performances. He's there to break up play and be useful in set pieces.
So you don't mind that Fellaini is poor technically because it's not his duty to be a ball player for us but you criticize a centre back for the exact same thing? People seem to just lose all logic in this thread.
No, I just don't understand why Fellaini gets criticised by the same people who praise Smalling. It's hypocritical.
Let's be honest, if Rojo was offered a deal by one of the Spanish giants he most likely would've picked them over us. He has indeed made it, he's a United player after all. So has Smalling who has more games under his belt and he's a captain to boot.
When United officially approached Sporting Lisbon everyone was surprised. No one knew about him. LVG admitted that he first saw him at the WC and I doubt he was even fully scouted. LVG needed a left footed CB and it probably also helped that we were trying to sign fellow Argentine Di Maria who was of course the major target.
He would pick first team football at United over being a backup at Madrid.
By the way I was familiar with Rojo before the World Cup and even signed him to United on FM 2013. I was delighted we signed him.
It'd only be hypocritical if they were praising Smalling for something and then going and criticising fellaini for the same thing.
As it is though most admit that both are limited players, but Smalling's good things outweigh his bad for me, whereas it's the opposite for Fellaini. Although he can definitely be good himself if used in the right way. Problem for him is that a club like United rarely play that way.
The hate Smalling gets from United fans these days is just staggering. Sometimes I really have no idea what people are seeing when they watch matches.
You're one of the few. I doubt Rojo was given starting 11 assurances when he outnpem to paper. We had Jones and Smalling still
People need scapegoats. Defenders and goalkeepers are easier to blame, unfortunately.
Also, lets not forget that Smalling shut his critics up for nearly two full seasons. There have undoubtedly been a few waiting in the shadows for him to fail. These fans tend to jump out of the dark the second they have a chance. They tend to be shut down pretty quickly, but that Chelsea game really hurt Smalling's reputation in here. He basically went from being considered our best defender to one of our worst overnight. This forum is really reactive in defeat.
How about an average defender who is very over-rated, apparently has height as his main attribute, can't pass unless it's backwards or sideways, panics when approached by opposing players, loves the odd wrestle in the box, gets caught flat-footed a lot of times etc., etc.
First bold: That would be Bailly.
Second: I would say his heading, which is a very good attribute for a CB
Yes, his passing could be better but a CBs job is to defend.
Third bold: Just a flat-out lie really. He keeps his head more than all our other CBs.
He does need to cut out the wrestling.
Fourth bold: 'a lot of times'? Sometimes, maybe. No more than Jones or the others though.
Yes a CB's primary job is to defend but we also need to play out from the back. We don't get anywhere when the back four are just passing it along the line or back to the keeper.
Third bold is not a lie.. he has no composure on the ball, especially when pressed.
The one in the first half? No. Ref gave a goal kick because Blind hit the corner straight out.
Do you watch a lot of Serie A?
The likes of Silva, Chiellini, Bonucci, are either too old, unattainable or both in my opinion.
I like Manolas but the likes of Glik, and Van Dijk i'm not convinced would be an upgrade on Smalling. Neither is the type of defender who would make us Cl contenders either. Not seen much of Koulibaly to be honest.
There just doesn't seem to be a lot of top class centre backs around in the game right now. Not as many as there used to be anyway.
Valencia is our most consistently good player this season, not Ibra. Herrera is probably a close second. Ibra has been good, but he had a long spell in which he didn't perform well.
Also, I find it absolutely bizarre how much you can actually hate a player who has absolutely done nothing wrong except had a few poor matches here and there. People bring up the red card against City and some other incidents. Have you read Vidic's stats in terms of penalties gifted and red cards appointed against the "big" teams? They are an interesting read as he collected a few.
I agree that Rojo shows promise, but he hasn't performed like Smalling did at his best, so giving him the plaudits you are shows a bit of bias.
Did you even read what I wrote in the first part of my post? I said every one of our CB option looks unreliable and error prone at times.
I've also said Smalling is a good defender. However, he is at best average on the ball, doesn't look assured in possesion and definitely not a leader to organise the defense. Then there is him letting down teammates at key moments like FA cup final last season. Hence, why I said he isn't anywhere near Rio's level.
You asked me what player of the said level I would suggest. I won't venture into that (my knowledge base on players is limited to the games I watch and I know better than to pick a few names from it) , but it is the club's job to bring in the level of players that they feel is fit for our club. If you are suggesting there aren't many top class defenders out there, you are wrong. Just because we have bought crap/avg defenders for a while doesn't mean good ones aren't out there. Whether we pay huge money on established ones, make punts on promising players or make better use of our academy and scouting, it up to the club.
If we are hard pressed to find better defenders than Smalling as you suggested, then we rightly don't deserve to get back to the Barca, Bayern or Madrid level for a long time.
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All our cbs bar bailly are like that. They are all solid squad player level
Bottom line, is Smalling or will he be a Vidic, Rio, Pallister etc...not sure he will. Don't dislike him at all but I think he's probably not the future, decent back up though.
What has Bailly done to escape that criteria? His last few games have been really poor.
He (Bailly) has been poor of late but it's no coincidence that in each recent poor performance his fellow central defender has been Smalling. Who's positioning is one of his worst flaws.
Blaming Smalling for Bailly backpassing to a striker or getting red for a tackle on the halfway line
Obviously not those individual errors but his over all performances when partnered with Smalling have dropped quite considerably.Blaming Smalling for Bailly backpassing to a striker or getting red for a tackle on the halfway line
As opposed to who? Smalling has partnered him for most of the season. Maybe it's just him.
Bailly is very much in the "not been here long enough to label shit" category.
Baillys best performances came next to Smalling earlier in the season, so that's just not true. Seems like a real stretch to fabricate something to criticise Smalling for. In two of those games, Smalling was excellent whilst he was cleaning up after Baillys mess. Somehow that is Smallings fault?
Van dijk and alderwield are 2 players I'd push hard for
The amount of shit people want to lay on Smalling's doorstep even when it's nothing to do with him. It's unrealBaillys best performances came next to Smalling earlier in the season, so that's just not true. Seems like a real stretch to fabricate something to criticise Smalling for. In two of those games, Smalling was excellent whilst he was cleaning up after Baillys mess. Somehow that is Smallings fault?
Smalling wrote season 2 of True Detective.
Wrong! Bailly's best performances were right at the beginning of the season when Smalling was out. He got back to back MOTM awards, if I remember correctly. Could be wrong on that score. But soon as Smalling got reintroduced, we sort of lost that edge. I'm not saying it's all down to Smalling but we never look as solid or dynamic when he's in the team.Baillys best performances came next to Smalling earlier in the season, so that's just not true. Seems like a real stretch to fabricate something to criticise Smalling for. In two of those games, Smalling was excellent whilst he was cleaning up after Baillys mess. Somehow that is Smallings fault?
If Smalling could pass comfortably he would be 1 of the best in the world. His only minor gripes are the grabbing (he usually gets away with it as do most CB's) and the fact he always looks so uncomfortable in possession.
In terms of a penalty box defender though he's great positionally and in the air wins most of his headers.
In terms of a penalty box defender though he's great positionally and in the air wins most of his headers.
I mentioned after the Bournemouth game that Smalling gets the worst treatment out of all our CB's, which is why I defend him more than everyone else, and this is exactly why. I ended up being called biased for it too.
When Jones and Bailly make mistakes people still end up blaming Smalling, even though he cleared up after Bailly and had no effect on the goals conceded the last two games.
Reading through this thread and the other threads about our defenders at least a couple of people have admitted that they have an irrational dislike of Smalling & Jones, I'm sure there's more who won't admit it.
Similarly it looks like Rojo & Bailly especially can do no wrong.
We've got great options and depth at the back, moreso than everyone else in the top 6 - the difference is that they manage to score a lot more goals than we do and that's the problem.
No defence is impassable, so yes we will concede goals.
However there's only been 5 matches in all competitions where we have conceded 2 or more goals, that's a fantastic record given our injuries, fixture congestion and continuous changes to the team.
Of course stats don't show everything but you look at games like Arsenal at home, Bournemouth at home, Everton away, Rostov away, Stoke at home etc - where we conceded last minute, through individual error, or missed dozens of chances to get a 2 goal lead, those are much more concerning.
Those mentioning whether they could see our defenders playing for Bayern or Barcelona or Madrid etc, forget the fact that these teams concede goals at a similar rate than we do. It's just that their final scores are 3-0, 4-1, 5-2 etc so there's no need to talk about their defence. The grass is greener and all that.
4 games including the City game where he made a calamitous mistake?
That's plenty to form an opinion of him as a top class defender.
You would think but many seem certain they know his level already. Personally i'm not convinced by him yet, as obviously i haven't seen enough.
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