Do you have the numbers?
2
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 29
- Clean sheets
- 13
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 0
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Status
Lindelöf 73% forward passes 17.45 meters avg length. 89% pass completion
Smalling 76% fp 18.95 m avg length 87% pass completion
Rojo 85% fp 23.57 m avg length 81% pass completion
Bailly 80% fp 19.88 m avg length 86% pass completion
Jones 77% fp 19.05 m avg length 91% pass completion
They are very similar in stats, Lindelöf is no worse or better at passing than the other CB's.
Stats provide absolutely no context with so many variables that they are pointless. For example quality of the pass, whether it was forward or backwards, was the pass made under pressure or not, were we looking for a goal or defending a lead.....and the lists goes on. For me, he looks natural when in control of the ball and passing it where Smalling even if it goes where it should do, your still left questioning how at times. That said it can be the polar opposite when he's defending. We have in the past where we have had Rio and Stam et al that could do everything.....
And Rojo and Bailly have barely played much, so I'm inclined to agree with you.
I agree with you about stats not showing the whole picture, also agree that he looks more comfortable on the ball and his passing more natural compared to Smalling, just think people expect him to become some playmaking CB sitting deep and spraying opening passes to our attacking players. He imo simply isn't that good a player, hope he proves me wrong. But he isn't as bad as some make him either. He's on par with the rest of our CB's in my opinion.
Edit: After watching Bailly vs Liverpool I have to say he's a class above the rest. His physicality and speed makes him a dominant presence in our defence, on top of that he's been out for months and has a performance like that.
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Well, the question is not about Blinds ability. Its whether Lindeloff can offer anything better than Blind after paying 35m.
Unless he proves that, questions will be asked. Ofcourse he has time in his side and if we don't improve by the same time next year, then we have a problem.
And I said that Lindelof is yet to show what he has here. The jury on him is still on him, while in Blind case I have seen enough of him to conclude he's a jack of all trade a master of none, an average player that joined us at a moment we were only signing average players and overhyping them.
Whether Lindelof succeeds here or not won't change my opinion about Blind.
Those stats are averages per 90 mins/full game, so a supposed ball playing CB should be putting better numbers on the board in any kind of context. Lindelof has been underwhelming and one can only hope he's just adapting slowly but Jose will run out of patience if he doesn't start showing more. Jones is currently in the doghouse so Lindelof needs to grab his current starting opportunities. Darmian showed more quality in the first few months of his United career than Lindelof has shown to date.
Where Blind ends up doesn't take away from his ability or what he has contributed and achieved at United. Lindelof is miles off that level at the moment and isn't even excelling at what he supposedly does best. Blind doesn't have to be over hyped at all, he's simply a better and more effective player than Lindelof. Its pretty tribal for you to infer that Blind's support only comes from LVG apologists. Lindelof in his current form probably wouldn't get into any top 6 side, maybe Liverpool since they love a mediocre defender.
Which is absolutely nothing.
You can't be serious, perhaps you're just blinded by your dislike of the player but you can't take away from his achievements. I don't feel I need to defend Blind's record at United. Lindelof has absolutely nothing on him but height and some fancy tatoos at this moment.
You keep on saying "Blind's achievements" without even mentioning them, which proves that you yourself don't even know what they're.
I don't dislike him, nice guy, but I have him on his own level, an average jack of all trade master of none that for some reason gets overhyped.
Lindelof did nothing here so far and the jury is yet to be made on him. He can flop. It doesn't mean Blind was a success or is the kind of player we should have targeted from the start anyway.
Really now? Are you forgetting he started over 50 games in 2015/16 and formed the most formidable CB pairing of the season alongside Smalling? We had the most clean sheets that season and won the FA cup. Which brings me to another thing, Blind has played in two of the three cup finals United have made since Fergie's departure, including last season's Europa cup win against Ajax. That was only United's biggest game since 2011's champions league final so excuse me for giving him credit for coming in and doing a job when most needed. Rojo and Jones haven't even managed 25 league games in a single season for United. Blind has been a major part of the little success United has achieved since 2013 and you can't take it away from him.
Played 50 matches and formed a formidable CB pairing for the club that finished 5th and was the most boring possession based system in the league that limited the chances thrown at this formidable pairing and guess what, still depended on Dave to save us loads of times each game. Great achievements indeed.
As I said previously in another thread in this season we had the best GK not the best defense. Anyone who says otherwise just depends on stats to form his opinion not on what was happening on the pitch.
Context matters. For instance, Bailly played when we were flying. Lindelof, on the other hand, has played during a period in which we were inconsistent and trying to find form, as team.
Agree. I think people also forget that every player you buy isn't necessarily a shoe-in for a future starting 11 spot. For me he's like 60% of the squad, there is a question mark over them but the thing he has over the rest is we haven't had long enough to see him to know what that question mark is. The rest it's much more clearer and sorry you can't build teams around players you can't trust whether that's physically or mentally and that's pretty much ever CB in the club. I think Jose to date has been trying to get a tune out of them cause he'd rather spend the money on a midfielder and probably a winger.....
Got dropped by who? Jose didnt drop Blind from CB- he stopped playing him him there completely and move him to LB before dropping him from there. There is no right to call me a snob mate- you blame Blind for apparently leaking a goal a game when we had the best defence in the league because of a combination of de gea, smalling and blind - whilst we leak more than a goal a game with Lindelof, smalling and de gea - and Lindelof is neither dropped & allowed to be given all the time in the world? How is that making sense?
The fact is the support for Lindelof has not been coming from any one of his good performances; because there has not been a single one
- it has been coming because he is a product of Jose mourinho and that is why Jose and his fans will give him all the time in the world whist he continues to be mere flop.Started off with him not having enough games to start
Then Lindelof should be given more time because Vidic and Evra didnt hit the ground running
Maybe he needs to play at 3 at the back?
Now he has had more time and free games and we should wait for Bailly because its Smallings fault that Lindelof is trash
Whats the next excuse?
Does he need some sort of change in form to atleast attempt a pass that shows his ball playing capabilities? There has been none- Iv tried to watch him pre-united and his ball playing capabilities are exaggerated to say the least and is definitely a layer beneath Blind.
Blind may be trash to you- but if Lindelof is given excuses to play with every partner, every formation ( especially in a back 3 where Blind is made for) - then why isnt Daley allowed that? Afterall Daley's performances in a back 2 has been better than Lindelof's so far. Answer is Jose's favouritism towards bodybuilders over technique throughout the pitch.
Yes, it was a formidable pairing and nothing you say can discredit it. None of our other CBs barring Smalling of course have managed a season like that in years. I don't care about the system we played or that De Gea was playing out of his skin, he didn't do it all on his own. Bash Blind all you want but can you honestly sit here and say Lindelof has been an upgrade on him? Can you honestly say Jones and Rojo have had an equal sustained period of form playing at the back as Blind did that season? Why was Smalling voted by his own teammates as player of the season (player's player of the season) if it was all down to De Gea saving us like is if he was making world class game winning saves every game? I don't need stats to state the fact that Blind has done more for this club than Jones and Rojo have in the post Fergie era.
You're wrong here because Lindelof and Smalling were paired in most of our CL group games starting from the times United were flying in the league. We managed 4 cleansheets in the group stages IIRC but Lindelof was stlll considered poor and Smalling saved him several times.
This sums it up. You know all this but you don't want to believe it and you insist on going on with the narrative that suits up. There's no point discussing it any farther then.
Also when did I say Lindelof is an upgrade on him ? Next time read before you post.
I’m not saying Lindelof is decent I have major reservations about him but the fact is Blind is a calamity at the back in my opinion and is not the answer either.Got dropped by who? Jose didnt drop Blind from CB- he stopped playing him him there completely and move him to LB before dropping him from there. There is no right to call me a snob mate- you blame Blind for apparently leaking a goal a game when we had the best defence in the league because of a combination of de gea, smalling and blind - whilst we leak more than a goal a game with Lindelof, smalling and de gea - and Lindelof is neither dropped & allowed to be given all the time in the world? How is that making sense?
The fact is the support for Lindelof has not been coming from any one of his good performances; because there has not been a single one
Started off with him not having enough games to start
Then Lindelof should be given more time because Vidic and Evra didnt hit the ground running
Maybe he needs to play at 3 at the back?
Now he has had more time and free games and we should wait for Bailly because its Smallings fault that Lindelof is trash
Whats the next excuse?
Does he need some sort of change in form to atleast attempt a pass that shows his ball playing capabilities? There has been none- Iv tried to watch him pre-united and his ball playing capabilities are exaggerated to say the least and is definitely a layer beneath Blind.
Blind may be trash to you- but if Lindelof is given excuses to play with every partner, every formation ( especially in a back 3 where Blind is made for) - then why isnt Daley allowed that? Afterall Daley's performances in a back 2 has been better than Lindelof's so far. Answer is Jose's favouritism towards bodybuilders over technique throughout the pitch.
Im not saying you did, but this is the Lindelof thread and I was backing up the assertion that Blind is the much better player. You could have tagged me in the Blind thread if you had an issue with him being 'over hyped' in singularity as to not derail this thread. Also, how many times are defensive records examined solely by the systems teams employed? Will history take that into consideration? United have consistently had the top 2 or top 3 defenses in the league since Fergie's departure bar the Moyes season. Obviously a change in system under Mourinho hasn't changed that, so you can't simply take credit away from the CBs you don't rate for their part in achieving this.
Honestly I didn't notice you posting earlier. I was replaying based on a poster replied about Blind just before mine. From the start I said Lindelof didn't prove anything here and the jury on him will be made next season as a flop or not, but in Blind case we have seen him already numerous times and I can form an opinion on him.
Defensive system are evaluated based on what we saw on the pitch, not based on deceiving stats. Based on stats you can say we had the best defensive record in the league but were actually solid on the pitch ? No we weren't. We were limiting the number of shots on us using possession and any chance that was thrown on us we depended on Dave to save us. When your GK has to grab miracle saves each match and wins POTY at the end of the season, you can't go on and say we had the best defense. It's called having the best GK, not the best defense.
City had the best defensive record in the league currently, conceding only 20 goals while we conceded 22. Does that mean their defense is formidable and solid ? No. Their total possession, pressing and pushing the teams to their last third is crazy that limits chances thrown at them and covers for their defense very well.
In order to evaluate a defense you need to see it by your eyes not by stats.
What you're doing is totally discrediting and not acknowledging the merits of any of the CBs because of a system, and giving all the credit to one part of the defense, the GK. De Gea is the best keeper on earth and all credit to him, but even if the players in front of him may not be world class you have to give credit to the ones who've been the most consistent for there's not a chance in hell De Gea was doing it all by himself. I don't know if you remember the Schemichel era but there were periods when he made miraculous saves to keep us in games. He earned the tag of best keeper in the world while with United after his bravery in Euro 92. Cassillas was also like De Gea for Real in the early 2000s despite always playing with world class defenders in front of him.
Because that's the truth, at least for me. I hadn't seen anything from this season that justifies us having the best defense except records on paper, otherwise the opposition were always getting a free sitter almost each game and it's up to Dave to save it. If you believe GK is a part of solid defense then fair enough, but it's not for me though. A solid defense for me is a defense that's not overly dependent on their GK to save them. VDS, for example, was a great keeper for us, but there're still many of our fans that think Rio and Vidic were the main causes of our defensive solidity at this time and helped VDS achieve his records. That should be the way, not the other way around imo.
Why would anyone care about the percentage of forward passes or the average length?
In fact, a long ball up the field is a forward pass that has a big length to it. The way I interpret the stats, is that Lindeloff plays the least long balls in the team. Shoirt passes are a good thing for defenders because that means they are trying to build the play, instead of resorting to long balls.
In fact, a long ball up the field is a forward pass that has a big length to it. The way I interpret the stats, is that Lindeloff plays the least long balls in the team. Shoirt passes are a good thing for defenders because that means they are trying to build the play, instead of resorting to long balls.
He might end up being better as a right back for us.
He can't be a center back with an instinct to turn his back and make himself small towards a shot instead of spreading himself to block it.
He can't be a center back with an instinct to turn his back and make himself small towards a shot instead of spreading himself to block it.
Really don't understand how play making is solely judged by the length of the pass. A CB, capable of play making ain't just stay deep spraying long pass. Playing a high line, step into midfield, 1 2 with other players in advanced position... are all parts of the play making.
I have to agree with this. The quality of ball playing cannot be captured by stats that we use. Clubs will have stats that measure these things like you have described.
Even then, I think that it is obvious that Lindeloff is more comfortable on the ball than Smalling.
Why would anyone care about the amount of FORWARD passes a supposed ball playing CB plays you ask? Why are certain players accused of being sideways pass merchants?
There is nothing wrong with a sideways pass, and forward passes are not inherently good. We don't have access to the stats, but clubs have stats that show the impact of each pass based on what happens following it.
I would say that pass timing is far more important than the direction of pass. Knowing when to circulate the ball sideways and provide a forward pass is import for building the play.
There are too many flaws in using forward passes as a metric for ball playing for my liking.
I’ve been on football forums for a long time but it’s only on here in the last year I’ve seen such a proliferation of stats and people placing so much stock in them.
What really amazes me, however, is how small the numbers are.
Seeing stuff like this defender makes 1.4 tackles per game and that defender only makes 1.2. Or this winger successfully completes 1.8 dribbles and this other one 1.5.
I genuinely thought these things would have been nearer double figures. The numbers just seem so insignificant to be meaningful.
What really amazes me, however, is how small the numbers are.
Seeing stuff like this defender makes 1.4 tackles per game and that defender only makes 1.2. Or this winger successfully completes 1.8 dribbles and this other one 1.5.
I genuinely thought these things would have been nearer double figures. The numbers just seem so insignificant to be meaningful.
Where do you have the data to support this statement? It is simply not true. That's maybe why it doesn't make sense.
He's looked pretty comfortable at RB. Could he be a long term solution there? I don't see a future for him at CB if he doesn't improve exponentially next season. Could save us 50-60M. I read that he also played as a RB for Benfica and did well when deployed there.
Comfortable? Stick him up against a winger with pace and he's done. He isn't a right back, nor does he look capable of being a centre half at United. We've better options to develop players at right back, TFM and Axel both look very exciting prospects, both of whom have pace to burn and would offer a lot more than Lindelof.
He wan't. It was a terrible experiment due to lack of other options. Zero attacking sense from him in this position. Let's stop putting players out of their positions and get specialists.
I don't see TFM and Tuanzebe as fullbacks, especially Tuanzebe. I think TFM will eventually establish himself as a CB or DM. So yea, I guess we should go for a full on RB @el3mel was just seeing what other purpose Lindelof could serve. I don't think Lindelof will last beyond another season like this one. He just hasn't shown himself to be the type of CB Mourinho tends to rely on.
No. If he has a longterm future as a starter I think its in a back 3. Although from what I've seen so far Blind is a better option
No I don't see it. The first thing we should be looking for is attacking quality, some pace and guile from our next full backs to give us width high up the field.
If anything, unless we plan to move to 3 at back we may as well sell Lindelof as he's pretty much our weakest centre back option. His one strength over the others is low injury proneness.
He's worse at RB, he's way too slow and has no creative/attacking nous. When Valencia is replaced it HAS to be with a bombing, adventurous and attack-minded RB who can also defend, not a slug of a CB.
Do you think Lindelof has a future here?
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