Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[4bars]

Ciudadanos won the elections(unionists) and the pro Spain part got more votes (52%) but the electoral law gives proportionally more value to the votes in provinces with not so much population.
For example,to get a seat in the province of Barcelona can cost 60.000 votes and in Lleida/Girona only 40.000.
And since the independentism is strong in the countryside/towns they kept an easy majority.
Ciudadanos has grown a lot in recent years and probably Will continue doing It in the general elections.
Rajoy failed.He should have delayed these elections some more months.Besides the candidate(Albiol) wasn't a very attractive choice.
Now let's see if Puigdemont Will Come back from Belgium.
Today Rovira (candidate of ERC,since Junqueras is in prison) has been also accused of rebellion.
There was a big net of people involved,with police spying to police and politicians

There a lot of points of view

Independentists votes progresssion

9-N 2014: 1.890.000
27-S 2015: 1.970.000
1-0 2017:2.040.000
21-D 2017: 2.065.000

That goes for the ones that the referendums indpenentist cheated voting 3 or 4 times. We got more votes yesterday than the 1-0 the same goes for Referendum 9-N to official elections of 27-S. What it shows how trustworthy we are as a society when we organize our unilateral referendum.


Also, ciudadanos won? well, the major vote was splitted in the 2 main parties, no biggy. Ciudadanos grew for the vanwagon effect and collected all PP votes (the major party in Spain had 4% in votes).

The funny thing is that the vast majority of the votes that ciudadanos had, mostly are in uneducated, labour hard workers with few resources and Ciudadanos is the new alt-right party, with more right economic policies than PP. Basically what happened with trump and rednecks. They just voted because anticatalanism populism (menwhile right wing .

About the Value of the votes in Barcelona, we can say the same for votes that went to garbage for CUP in Lleida and Tarragona to not reach the minimum for 1 seat. If the indpendentist would go together, like last elections, they would grab a few more seats as the extra votes of each, for each province would joint and reach a few seats more.



Other ways to see it

55% of the votes against 155 article
55% (at least) in favour of a referendum
17% votes classical National Spanish parties (like it would be tories and labour)
45% votes Total National Spanish parties


And all that with the catalan government intervened by the spanish government, a president in exile, the other major candidate catalan indpendentist party in prison and all the spanish media overboarding to make Ciudadanos win

The truth is that independentism grows year by year despite the repression of the government and IMO for to factors:

-Because more people see that is impossible to go forward in our society with the mentality from the spanish powers that emanate from the francoist oligarchy and their heirs
-Because the spanish people that immigrate on the 60-70 in mas to Catalonia are dying and their children are more and more integrated in our society (indpendentists or not this is great)

Despite the sensation of victory in catalonia, the international press saying the same (spanish media, as Orwell said decades ago is another matter, they leave in an alternative universe), for me is a defeat of the independentism as I understand it. I think after so many years trying and after what happened in september-november we had to grow more than what we did. We did not reach 50% but 47.5% the same as last time but with 5 points more of participation. 155 article fans had 43% and as always "that people in the middle" that they vote for animal parties like PACMA, for lets hold hands together without telling what you would vote in the most important question in catalan society currently like COMUNS, etc...

Independentist parties grabbed a social movement that people started without them, brought us beyond our limit as a country breaking offcial rules and boundaries. And I do not find it wrong, as if you want the independence, you need to do that, but they brought us there lying telling us that they had a plan. And they did not have a plan more than bring us to the referendum of the 1-O (that they did brilliantly) and cry to Europe for help like a baby. And you can't rely on third parties if you want to manage your own country, and even me, that I am not in politics, knew that Europe would not give a damn

We stuck at the same exactly point. Spanish politicians will not change. Catalan politicians will not change and lets the marmot day begin over and over.

In my opinion indpendentist partiesw should slow down, let catalan society rest and concentrate in fix and clean what the dirty hands of the central government touched during the 155 article imposition. Let indpendentism follow the course, Old people dying, young people able to vote and hope for Spain be a normal democratic country


In this post I give my personal opinion, very distant than what a vast majority of independentist think, And is dangerous because I criticize my own political movement and that would be grabbed in this thread by the ones that have a different opinion, but one think is clear, IMO we lost because we did not reach enough, but the unionist side, with all the State/police/law/media/international positions in their side, could not stop independentism but make it grow


PS: I did not write before and I will not write much because I am very weary of everything and in 2 days I fly home

Happy holidays

 

[4bars]

Yeah... Plus factor in the whole brexit and the additional fallout ref Scottish independence/ eu membership... Gibraltar.... yeah would have been messy... wouldn't be shocked to see him rock up there and apply for asylum

There is no asylum status among european countries/citizens. Only Belgium has a special status noted in the european treaties

 

[The Outsider]

I hear the early poll exit is that the Catalonian nationalist votes have the majority. If this is true does that mean there will be a referendum on Catalan independence?

 

[sun_tzu]

I hear the early poll exit is that the Catalonian nationalist votes have the majority. If this is true does that mean there will be a referendum on Catalan independence?

Not sure... I think for it to be legal it would have to be authorised by Madrid which I doubt is any more likely now than it was before

 

[carvajal]

There a lot of points of view

Independentists votes progresssion

9-N 2014: 1.890.000
27-S 2015: 1.970.000
1-0 2017:2.040.000
21-D 2017: 2.065.000

That goes for the ones that the referendums indpenentist cheated voting 3 or 4 times. We got more votes yesterday than the 1-0 the same goes for Referendum 9-N to official elections of 27-S. What it shows how trustworthy we are as a society when we organize our unilateral referendum.


Also, ciudadanos won? well, the major vote was splitted in the 2 main parties, no biggy. Ciudadanos grew for the vanwagon effect and collected all PP votes (the major party in Spain had 4% in votes).

The funny thing is that the vast majority of the votes that ciudadanos had, mostly are in uneducated, labour hard workers with few resources and Ciudadanos is the new alt-right party, with more right economic policies than PP. Basically what happened with trump and rednecks. They just voted because anticatalanism populism (menwhile right wing .

About the Value of the votes in Barcelona, we can say the same for votes that went to garbage for CUP in Lleida and Tarragona to not reach the minimum for 1 seat. If the indpendentist would go together, like last elections, they would grab a few more seats as the extra votes of each, for each province would joint and reach a few seats more.



Other ways to see it

55% of the votes against 155 article
55% (at least) in favour of a referendum
17% votes classical National Spanish parties (like it would be tories and labour)
45% votes Total National Spanish parties


And all that with the catalan government intervened by the spanish government, a president in exile, the other major candidate catalan indpendentist party in prison and all the spanish media overboarding to make Ciudadanos win

The truth is that independentism grows year by year despite the repression of the government and IMO for to factors:

-Because more people see that is impossible to go forward in our society with the mentality from the spanish powers that emanate from the francoist oligarchy and their heirs
-Because the spanish people that immigrate on the 60-70 in mas to Catalonia are dying and their children are more and more integrated in our society (indpendentists or not this is great)

Despite the sensation of victory in catalonia, the international press saying the same (spanish media, as Orwell said decades ago is another matter, they leave in an alternative universe), for me is a defeat of the independentism as I understand it. I think after so many years trying and after what happened in september-november we had to grow more than what we did. We did not reach 50% but 47.5% the same as last time but with 5 points more of participation. 155 article fans had 43% and as always "that people in the middle" that they vote for animal parties like PACMA, for lets hold hands together without telling what you would vote in the most important question in catalan society currently like COMUNS, etc...

Independentist parties grabbed a social movement that people started without them, brought us beyond our limit as a country breaking offcial rules and boundaries. And I do not find it wrong, as if you want the independence, you need to do that, but they brought us there lying telling us that they had a plan. And they did not have a plan more than bring us to the referendum of the 1-O (that they did brilliantly) and cry to Europe for help like a baby. And you can't rely on third parties if you want to manage your own country, and even me, that I am not in politics, knew that Europe would not give a damn

We stuck at the same exactly point. Spanish politicians will not change. Catalan politicians will not change and lets the marmot day begin over and over.

In my opinion indpendentist partiesw should slow down, let catalan society rest and concentrate in fix and clean what the dirty hands of the central government touched during the 155 article imposition. Let indpendentism follow the course, Old people dying, young people able to vote and hope for Spain be a normal democratic country


In this post I give my personal opinion, very distant than what a vast majority of independentist think, And is dangerous because I criticize my own political movement and that would be grabbed in this thread by the ones that have a different opinion, but one think is clear, IMO we lost because we did not reach enough, but the unionist side, with all the State/police/law/media/international positions in their side, could not stop independentism but make it grow


PS: I did not write before and I will not write much because I am very weary of everything and in 2 days I fly home

Happy holidays

If some independentists read your critics would say that you are a falangista ,like C's hehe.
CUP have said that they will support a government if they go for the republic, the hard line,but that hard line means more sedition and rebellion, long prison sentences that won't go away ,with the investigation of GC involving more and more people.
Do you think that they'll accept to be martyrs again? Bon Nadal!

 

[The Outsider]

Not sure... I think for it to be legal it would have to be authorised by Madrid which I doubt is any more likely now than it was before

Yet it would certainly strengthen Puidgemond's hand in Brussels should Madrid refuse.

 

[sun_tzu]

Yet it would certainly strengthen Puidgemond's hand in Brussels should Madrid refuse.

Though how many days till he is due to be extradited from Brussels on a European arrest warrant to the authorities in Madrid.. . Because that might somewhat undermine his hand

 

[The Outsider]

I don't know yet expect it can't be more than a month.

 

[carvajal]

If I understood well Spain retired the extradition order,since they thought that the Belgium judge could order the extradition only for embezzlement but not for rebellion.
They prefer him there and once he crosses the border accuse him for everything.

 

[4bars]

If some independentists read your critics would say that you are a falangista ,like C's hehe.
CUP have said that they will support a government if they go for the republic, the hard line,but that hard line means more sedition and rebellion, long prison sentences that won't go away ,with the investigation of GC involving more and more people.
Do you think that they'll accept to be martyrs again? Bon Nadal!

To any forum, facebook comment and conversation I have, they understand my point of view and they share some points. I am afraid you don't grasp the dialogant nature of indepentism. We had been a society that speaks and negotiates.

Most of the violence shown had been for the unionist part. They did things that if it would be from independentists they will say we are terrorist.

FOrtunately there are more things that unites than separates us, but unfortunately the spanish factic powers made impossible to reconcile the ones that separate us

I don't know what they gonna do, and I much not care (I do, but I don't want it to care). I am tired of it, I want a referendum, everybody accept the results for decades to come and move on with it

First week back home is to cross the catalan border to madrid and visit the spanish capital to enjoy my friends there. Guess colour yellow not allowed

Feliz navidad!

 

[carvajal]

To any forum, facebook comment and conversation I have, they understand my point of view and they share some points. I am afraid you don't grasp the dialogant nature of indepentism. We had been a society that speaks and negotiates.

Most of the violence shown had been for the unionist part. They did things that if it would be from independentists they will say we are terrorist.

FOrtunately there are more things that unites than separates us, but unfortunately the spanish factic powers made impossible to reconcile the ones that separate us

I don't know what they gonna do, and I much not care (I do, but I don't want it to care). I am tired of it, I want a referendum, everybody accept the results for decades to come and move on with it

First week back home is to cross the catalan border to madrid and visit the spanish capital to enjoy my friends there. Guess colour yellow not allowed

Feliz navidad!

don't worry,in Madrid they won't tell you to go home

 

[4bars]

don't worry,in Madrid they won't tell you to go home

I know. I love Madrid. My quarrel is with the ones that rules the country, not only the government

 

[The Outsider]

For the posters here against Catalonian independence I would like your opinion on this.

What would you have said to the Irish that got their independence after violence and having martyrs in 1916 fighting Britain. Would you have said they should have continued to be run by Britain or were they right to fight and give their lives?

They even speak the same language as us, albeit with a different accent.

 

[carvajal]

For the posters here against Catalonian independence I would like your opinion on this.

What would you have said to the Irish that got their independence after violence and having martyrs in 1916 fighting Britain. Would you have said they should have continued to be run by Britain or were they right to fight and give their lives?

They even speak the same language as us, albeit with a different accent.

Well,It is difficult to compare between countries. We would have to see what percentage of those Irish people wanted independence, and the historical, cultural and social ties. Their financial situation, opportunities,progress etc. were the same as those in London? or were they mistreated?

 

[Sweet Square]

Well,It is difficult to compare between countries. We would have to see what percentage of those Irish people wanted independence, and the historical, cultural and social ties. Their financial situation, opportunities,progress etc. were the same as those in London? or were they mistreated?

At least to my knowledge during the 1916 rising the people involved were actively hated by the general Irish population and most of the civilian population where firmly on the side of the British. It was only after the Brits decide to execute those involved in the rising that the tide began to change. The case for catalonia independence is far stronger than what was the case in 20th century Ireland(Although personally I think those's involved in the Rising had the moral justification to do what they did)

 

[carvajal]

At least to my knowledge during the 1916 rising the people involved were actively hated by the general Irish population and most of the civilian population where firmly on the side of the British. It was only after the Brits decide to execute those involved in the rising that the tide began to change. The case for catalonia independence is far stronger than what was the case in 20th century Ireland(Although personally I think those's involved in the Rising had the moral justification to do what they did)

I do not know what to think about Catalonia. The general idea is that the lower class people and the children of Spanish emigrants are unionists, and that they(the catalans) are more "pure", but yesterday the unionists won in the 10 most populated cities, which I think does not agree very much with that theory.
In Spain there are many regions that could build an independentist discourse, so perhaps there is fear of allowing too many concessions.
It would be necessary to see the bigger picture, and not a process built in a few years(without doubting about their identity and history).
The Basque Country built a great story of independence, there were martyrs and recently support for independence fell to 14%.
I think the NO would win in a referendum in Catalonia, but there is the fear of indoctrination, which is heard these days. Children with posters defending the freedom of the prisoners or in demonstrations against the Spanish police and an educational system that sells that Catalonia has always been mistreated and that has a completely separate history.

 

[4bars]

I do not know what to think about Catalonia. The general idea is that the lower class people and the children of Spanish emigrants are unionists, and that they(the catalans) are more "pure", but yesterday the unionists won in the 10 most populated cities, which I think does not agree very much with that theory.
In Spain there are many regions that could build an independentist discourse, so perhaps there is fear of allowing too many concessions.
It would be necessary to see the bigger picture, and not a process built in a few years(without doubting about their identity and history).
The Basque Country built a great story of independence, there were martyrs and recently support for independence fell to 14%.
I think the NO would win in a referendum in Catalonia, but there is the fear of indoctrination, which is heard these days. Children with posters defending the freedom of the prisoners or in demonstrations against the Spanish police and an educational system that sells that Catalonia has always been mistreated and that has a completely separate history.

About indoctrination...Is something spoken to discredit the catalan education. Indoctrination at schools can´t happen in societies like the spanish or catalan. At least not to a decisve degree. All schools has some bias. Catalan school has it for sure, as spain has it not calling Franco dictator but chieftain, and not calling coupe d'etat the one of the 1936 but "the raising". As well, let me assure that the history of the "discovery" of the americas is completely different in Spain than in latin america as the conflict of the Falklands-Maldivaas for Brittish and Argentinians.

But the true indoctrination happens at home, in your families and no government can´t force change the way you raise your kids, with the way you see the world and your political viewings. Most of the kids will follow similar ideologies like their parents, some not as they grow, they find their own path.

But if school would be the true indoctrinating places, all the 45 years all to up 100, would be francoist. The main independentist actors would be francoist as that school wass by far more indoctrinating than the one today anywhere in Spain.

Also, Albert Rivera, lider od "Ciutadans" would be independentist as he grew in the catalan school.

Kids with posters asking the freedom of prisioners? yes, like spanish kids visited by the police or dressed as guardia civil

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Or kids doing the fascist salute

All that indoctrinating BS, is another atempt of PP and Ciutadanos to enter to the catalan schools and forbid learning catalan for starters and subdue catalan culture. There is a lot of catalanophobia in those parties and they can´t understand Spain with people speaking another languge and breathing another culture. They are intransigent, old fashioned people stucked in the grandieur of the very old empire and the repressive Francoist dictatorship. They do not accept the diversity of Spain and another focus of economic power that is not Madrid, and Barcelona had been always a thread and the true motor of Spain and they can´t accept that

Spain is doomed with those people, because the country will never be able to advance and as the years will go by, the independentism will only grow, because the spanish society is falling more and more behind if they still buy their old fashioned point of view, while the new generations in catalonia will be more dissacociated of Spain and yes, more indoctrinated by their families, but not schools

 

[Sweet Square]

I do not know what to think about Catalonia. The general idea is that the lower class people and the children of Spanish emigrants are unionists, and that they(the catalans) are more "pure", but yesterday the unionists won in the 10 most populated cities, which I think does not agree very much with that theory.
In Spain there are many regions that could build an independentist discourse, so perhaps there is fear of allowing too many concessions.
It would be necessary to see the bigger picture, and not a process built in a few years(without doubting about their identity and history).
The Basque Country built a great story of independence, there were martyrs and recently support for independence fell to 14%.
I think the NO would win in a referendum in Catalonia, but there is the fear of indoctrination, which is heard these days. Children with posters defending the freedom of the prisoners or in demonstrations against the Spanish police and an educational system that sells that Catalonia has always been mistreated and that has a completely separate history.

It's a very difficult situation, it's one thing to look back at a event that happened just over 100 years ago - The Irish Rising and say whether it's was right or wrong (This seemed somewhat of a talking point in Ireland during the 100 years anniversary)but to talking about Catalonian independence is to talk about people lives today and their families. And then more broadly what would this independence really look like for the people of Catalonia, to quote the socialist James Connolly, who took part in the Irish Rising -

''If you remove the English army tomorrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organization of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain. England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country and watered with the tears of our mothers and the blood of our martyrs''.

I think the NO would win in a referendum in Catalonia, but there is the fear of indoctrination, which is heard these days. Children with posters defending the freedom of the prisoners or in demonstrations against the Spanish police and an educational system that sells that Catalonia has always been mistreated and that has a completely separate history.

I agree that nationalism is almost a uncontrollable animal as we see sadly with Spanish nationism and it's links to fascism(Although I could use the Irish Rising again, where the great gains from the Rising - rights of women where completely overturned by the nationalist conservatives after the rising as well other ideas such as socialism). But in the end nations and people have the right to self determination and they should be given the space and resources to follow that goal if they wish.

 

[carvajal]

About indoctrination...Is something spoken to discredit the catalan education. Indoctrination at schools can´t happen in societies like the spanish or catalan. At least not to a decisve degree. All schools has some bias. Catalan school has it for sure, as spain has it not calling Franco dictator but chieftain, and not calling coupe d'etat the one of the 1936 but "the raising". As well, let me assure that the history of the "discovery" of the americas is completely different in Spain than in latin america as the conflict of the Falklands-Maldivaas for Brittish and Argentinians.

But the true indoctrination happens at home, in your families and no government can´t force change the way you raise your kids, with the way you see the world and your political viewings. Most of the kids will follow similar ideologies like their parents, some not as they grow, they find their own path.

But if school would be the true indoctrinating places, all the 45 years all to up 100, would be francoist. The main independentist actors would be francoist as that school wass by far more indoctrinating than the one today anywhere in Spain.

Also, Albert Rivera, lider od "Ciutadans" would be independentist as he grew in the catalan school.

Kids with posters asking the freedom of prisioners? yes, like spanish kids visited by the police or dressed as guardia civil

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Or kids doing the fascist salute

All that indoctrinating BS, is another atempt of PP and Ciutadanos to enter to the catalan schools and forbid learning catalan for starters and subdue catalan culture. There is a lot of catalanophobia in those parties and they can´t understand Spain with people speaking another languge and breathing another culture. They are intransigent, old fashioned people stucked in the grandieur of the very old empire and the repressive Francoist dictatorship. They do not accept the diversity of Spain and another focus of economic power that is not Madrid, and Barcelona had been always a thread and the true motor of Spain and they can´t accept that

Spain is doomed with those people, because the country will never be able to advance and as the years will go by, the independentism will only grow, because the spanish society is falling more and more behind if they still buy their old fashioned point of view, while the new generations in catalonia will be more dissacociated of Spain and yes, more indoctrinated by their families, but not schools

I expected you to bring me a book saying to the children that Catalonia is the enemy, but you went to get the Nazi salute . I do not know why but it does not surprise me. even a procession of Holy Week!

-1300 pictures about the pressure and the presence in schools : https://www.flickr.com/photos/100929805@N07/sets/72157663257244562
-Catalan educational union that denounces the indoctrination with several examples: http://www.ames-fps.com/ http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinament_politic_partidista.htm
-Several cases about teachers that decide forget the maths for a day or decide to ask who will go to vote the next day : http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/12/59de748746163f7a4e8b45f7.html
http://www.periodistadigital.tv/adoctrinamiento-a-ninos-en-un-colegio-de-cataluna-“hay-que-destrozar-al-enemigo-espanol”_72a20f6da.html
there are many cases, twitter is full with people sharing their school books

 

[4bars]

I expected you to bring me a book saying to the children that Catalonia is the enemy, but you went to get the Nazi salute . I do not know why but it does not surprise me. even a procession of Holy Week!

-1300 pictures about the pressure and the presence in schools : https://www.flickr.com/photos/100929805@N07/sets/72157663257244562
-Catalan educational union that denounces the indoctrination with several examples: http://www.ames-fps.com/ http://www.ames-fps.com/adoctrinament_politic_partidista.htm
-Several cases about teachers that decide forget the maths for a day or decide to ask who will go to vote the next day : http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/10/12/59de748746163f7a4e8b45f7.html
http://www.periodistadigital.tv/adoctrinamiento-a-ninos-en-un-colegio-de-cataluna-“hay-que-destrozar-al-enemigo-espanol”_72a20f6da.html
there are many cases, twitter is full with people sharing their school books

...All schools has some bias.Catalan school has it for sure....

I will not start that 95% of the pictures of graffities are not in schools and some posters that they want to learn catalan in catalan schools (the nerve), but your point differs of mine in what exactly?

 

[carvajal]

I will not start that 95% of the pictures of graffities are not in schools and some posters that they want to learn catalan in catalan schools (the nerve), but your point differs of mine in what exactly?

Mainly all those paintings on the walls, those calls for children to go in yellow, go to demonstrations, textbooks creating an alternative story or selling "that Spanish policeman is bad, Spain is bad with us" It is promoted by politicized associations. It's as if you criticize a French school because children have flags of France. It has never been seen in a Spanish school in the other sense.
I have never been taught that I have to belittle any region, in fact it emphasizes a lot (at least now in the school of my small son) the cultural differences and the study of what happens in other parts of Spain.
Find the photo of the girl in google is to look for an extreme when I'm giving you everyday examples, narrated by parents and teachers.
Let us do the referendum, now or in ten years, that meanwhile we put shit in their heads

 

[4bars]

Mainly all those paintings on the walls, those calls for children to go in yellow, go to demonstrations, textbooks creating an alternative story or selling "that Spanish policeman is bad, Spain is bad with us" It is promoted by politicized associations. It's as if you criticize a French school because children have flags of France. It has never been seen in a Spanish school in the other sense.
I have never been taught that I have to belittle any region, in fact it emphasizes a lot (at least now in the school of my small son) the cultural differences and the study of what happens in other parts of Spain.
Find the photo of the girl in google is to look for an extreme when I'm giving you everyday examples, narrated by parents and teachers.
Let us do the referendum, now or in ten years, that meanwhile we put shit in their heads

Man, do not make it so easy for me. I will spare the forum with more pictures. Just put in spanish. "kids spanish flag school" and there you go.

You have a BIG problem in Spain and is that you only see nationalism in others, and not your own and there is no bigger nationalism in Spain than the spanish one that does not allow other different indentities feel spanish, simply spanish nationalism does not give space

All school does indoctrination but I promise that this indoctrination goes acordingly with the majority of the ideology of the neigbourhood and agreed with the parents asociation, if not would be madness. And that happens EVERYWHERE.

And of course, with the times that we are in, in Catalonia is everywhere and there is a kind of histeria with the topic. That histeria provoke exceptional situations of individuals that cross their bounderies as teachers.

I am independentist, I NEVER saw a indepentist flag in my school, never touch the subject anytime, Actually I do not have a inependentist flag, I love my old catalan of always flag. My mother was a teacher for more than 30 years, never touch the subject in school.

You will not find any town as much independentist as mine. And I am sure the topic is there at their schools the last 2 years, but never before like they say the last 40 years. But that is when in a society is living every single day that topic and live in histeria the last 2 months. You must understand, that what happened the 1st of October was mainly in schools and for a lot of people never had been the same seeing the police entering at the schools that way. It had been a very abnormal situation in catalonia and in spain you can´t even imagine. Is normal that some people snaped next days.

Logically in Spain they don´t live day by day that histeria but nevertheless

This never happens in Spain?


@carvajal , For me is paramount to be critic with my ideology, how it evolves and criticize it to bring to debate with my friends and family and society to make it better. Understand why it happens, be lenient and understanding depending on the times we live it, but trying to correct it. Self contentment is a big mistake if we don´t want to be and do better as a independent country.

I don´t understand why you don´t see that the catalan nationalism is more noticeable because it is out of the norm, while the spanish nationalism is way stronger but accepted just because is what you are supposed to be. And yes it has as much indoctrination as the catalan and any other place.

 

[carvajal]

Man, do not make it so easy for me. I will spare the forum with more pictures. Just put in spanish. "kids spanish flag school" and there you go.

You have a BIG problem in Spain and is that you only see nationalism in others, and not your own and there is no bigger nationalism in Spain than the spanish one that does not allow other different indentities feel spanish, simply spanish nationalism does not give space

All school does indoctrination but I promise that this indoctrination goes acordingly with the majority of the ideology of the neigbourhood and agreed with the parents asociation, if not would be madness. And that happens EVERYWHERE.

And of course, with the times that we are in, in Catalonia is everywhere and there is a kind of histeria with the topic. That histeria provoke exceptional situations of individuals that cross their bounderies as teachers.

I am independentist, I NEVER saw a indepentist flag in my school, never touch the subject anytime, Actually I do not have a inependentist flag, I love my old catalan of always flag. My mother was a teacher for more than 30 years, never touch the subject in school.

You will not find any town as much independentist as mine. And I am sure the topic is there at their schools the last 2 years, but never before like they say the last 40 years. But that is when in a society is living every single day that topic and live in histeria the last 2 months. You must understand, that what happened the 1st of October was mainly in schools and for a lot of people never had been the same seeing the police entering at the schools that way. It had been a very abnormal situation in catalonia and in spain you can´t even imagine. Is normal that some people snaped next days.

Logically in Spain they don´t live day by day that histeria but nevertheless

This never happens in Spain?


@carvajal , For me is paramount to be critic with my ideology, how it evolves and criticize it to bring to debate with my friends and family and society to make it better. Understand why it happens, be lenient and understanding depending on the times we live it, but trying to correct it. Self contentment is a big mistake if we don´t want to be and do better as a independent country.

I don´t understand why you don´t see that the catalan nationalism is more noticeable because it is out of the norm, while the spanish nationalism is way stronger but accepted just because is what you are supposed to be. And yes it has as much indoctrination as the catalan and any other place.

For me that there are flags of Catalonia is not a problem or flags of Spain, the problem is the story that you tell them after that, and that story did not start with the 1-O. The history of oppression and that we do not allow anything to get out of line is not worth, if you want I can post here all the competences that Catalonia can manage without Madrid, but I would need a very long post.
Your mother never brought up the subject but it seems that now they want to take politics to the classroom. There are many people in Spain who can´t believe what they are seeing. Older people who could not imagine certain things.
Your town is very independent and my family is full of local police,national police, army, GC and even bodyguards, in both cases dealing directly with ETA, and of course the unity of Spain within the difficulties and the differences as the first option, so logically our positions will be always very confronted.
I think we will agree that PP has handled this situation very badly, but on the other hand trying to identify PP=Spain, victimization in excess and underestimating the power and resolution of the state have been a mistake of your politicians.

 

[4bars]

For me that there are flags of Catalonia is not a problem or flags of Spain, the problem is the story that you tell them after that, and that story did not start with the 1-O. The history of oppression and that we do not allow anything to get out of line is not worth, if you want I can post here all the competences that Catalonia can manage without Madrid, but I would need a very long post.
Your mother never brought up the subject but it seems that now they want to take politics to the classroom. There are many people in Spain who can´t believe with what they are seeing. Older people who could not imagine certain things.
Your town is very independent and my family is full of local police,national police, army, GC and even bodyguards, in both cases dealing directly with ETA, and of course the unity of Spain within the difficulties and the differences as the first option, so logically our positions will be always very confronted.
I think we will agree that PP has handled this situation very badly, but on the other hand trying to identify PP=Spain, victimization in excess and underestimating the power and resolution of the state have been a mistake of your politicians.

Well, the stoy of oppression and repression of our language is not a lie, is true and we still have paying for that. My dad goes now at his 71 years old to school to learn how to write properly his own language. And that in the XXI there is in the central government advances to cripple it is evident with declarations of the minister of education.

Right now, in 2 months, the spanish government close several administrations, past a law for catalan companies to flew from catalonia, as theey rule every deparment in generalitat thanks to the 155, they did not proceed in protect the interests of catalan museums with Sijena art (and I have a clear opinion that it does not belong to catalonia, but needs to be retributed as it was paid for it) and a big etc...

Catalonia can have all the competences that you want, but we have one of the lowest ratio (if not the lowest) in spain of public servants per inhabitant. If you dont have funds for thee competences it means nothing. Like infraestructures. You can promise and even budget as much as you want, but if in the end you only start 10% of the budgeted, it means nothing.

Spanish people don´t have much problems with catalans (or they didnt have much, now is understanable) but that spanish institutions had been for centuries against catalonia, are facts and is proven, and I have proof at my home itself.

A guy from the PP laughing with the interior minister saying "we destroyed their health care system". How that can be possible? how they can be happy of that? How nothing happening to them? what it means to have competence in the health care system if they put as much effort as they can to destroy it?

Identifying PP with Spain? mate, they are voted buy 8-10 millions EVERY ELECTIONS and the other party roughly the same numbers, back them up in everything. And now ciudadanos with a few millions more. And you know? they will have even more votes thanks to how they handled catalan situation and that means that we will have 15-20 millions backing up the way PP acted...Spanish society have to have some responsability even if somehow they were manipulated by the spanish media.

If the spanish society would not like what happen, they would show descontent and it happened the oposite mainly.

And yes, you have seen my first post today about what I said about catalan politicians and how they dealt with the whole situation. Catalan society has to make reflexion of the mistakes too.

And mixing your GC and police because of ETA...I don´t see the correlation with catalan independentism, the way we choose has nothing to do with that part of the basque society and I think had been quite democratic

 

[carvajal]

I agree that nationalism is almost a uncontrollable animal as we see sadly with Spanish nationism and it's links to fascism(Although I could use the Irish Rising again, where the great gains from the Rising - rights of women where completely overturned by the nationalist conservatives after the rising as well other ideas such as socialism). But in the end nations and people have the right to self determination and they should be given the space and resources to follow that goal if they wish.

Curiously, in Spain to show the flag and the symbols have been seen as something negative. The flag was identified with Franco. The symbols were so exalted that people were afraid for years.
Some people believe that Ciudadanos, which is seen as party friend of the stock market, liberals, center-right are in reality the purest and hardest falangism.
I imagine that we will discover it if they keep growing and manage to control some region.
What you say about the right to decide, where is placed the limit?. Today is Catalonia, but tomorrow can be Corsica can be and after tomorrow any other region, for cultural, ethnic reasons, political disenchantment ...

 

[4bars]

Curiously, in Spain to show the flag and the symbols have been seen as something negative. The flag was identified with Franco. The symbols were so exalted that people were afraid for years.
Some people believe that Ciudadanos, which is seen as party friend of the stock market, liberals, center-right are in reality the purest and hardest falangism.
I imagine that we will discover it if they keep growing and manage to control some region.
What you say about the right to decide, where is placed the limit?. Today is Catalonia, but tomorrow can be Corsica can be and after tomorrow any other region, for cultural, ethnic reasons, political disenchantment ...

And what is the problem? every region has to accept the consecuences of being independent. Actually since 100 years ago, we past from 60 countries to 200, and not only for de-colonialization. Every year there is a new country and the last unifications were germany and yemen if I recall around 1989-1990?

As the world is more secure and more interdependent, decentralization is more likely to happen, and old national identity to resurface. If states (like spain) don´t give space at a federation, that is what it happens. A referendum 3 years ago and all solved but the stupidity of the macho style of PP (and covevring up the corruption with it) brought as to this situation. Actually I thank them. The so called indoctrination that they say would never do what PP accomplished for the independentism

 

[carvajal]

Well, the stoy of oppression and repression of our language is not a lie, is true and we still have paying for that. My dad goes now at his 71 years old to school to learn how to write properly his own language. And that in the XXI there is in the central government advances to cripple it is evident with declarations of the minister of education.

Right now, in 2 months, the spanish government close several administrations, past a law for catalan companies to flew from catalonia, as theey rule every deparment in generalitat thanks to the 155, they did not proceed in protect the interests of catalan museums with Sijena art (and I have a clear opinion that it does not belong to catalonia, but needs to be retributed as it was paid for it) and a big etc...

Catalonia can have all the competences that you want, but we have one of the lowest ratio (if not the lowest) in spain of public servants per inhabitant. If you dont have funds for thee competences it means nothing. Like infraestructures. You can promise and even budget as much as you want, but if in the end you only start 10% of the budgeted, it means nothing.

Spanish people don´t have much problems with catalans (or they didnt have much, now is understanable) but that spanish institutions had been for centuries against catalonia, are facts and is proven, and I have proof at my home itself.

A guy from the PP laughing with the interior minister saying "we destroyed their health care system". How that can be possible? how they can be happy of that? How nothing happening to them? what it means to have competence in the health care system if they put as much effort as they can to destroy it?

Identifying PP with Spain? mate, they are voted buy 8-10 millions EVERY ELECTIONS and the other party roughly the same numbers, back them up in everything. And now ciudadanos with a few millions more. And you know? they will have even more votes thanks to how they handled catalan situation and that means that we will have 15-20 millions backing up the way PP acted...Spanish society have to have some responsability even if somehow they were manipulated by the spanish media.

If the spanish society would not like what happen, they would show descontent and it happened the oposite mainly.

And yes, you have seen my first post today about what I said about catalan politicians and how they dealt with the whole situation. Catalan society has to make reflexion of the mistakes too.

And mixing your GC and police because of ETA...I don´t see the correlation with catalan independentism, the way we choose has nothing to do with that part of the basque society and I think had been quite democratic

I don´t mix. You would have to find out the importance of Terra Lliure leaders and their active participation in all this. As well as the photos where several leaders licked Arnaldo Otegi's ass.
This is mainly due to the victimization of the offender. See when one part of society belittles and corners the other sector. An immense amount of small details.Paint the door to your neighbor, tell him to go to his land, call him a facha... we have already seen all that in Euskadi
More than 3000 companies have left Catalonia. The Spanish state promoted that law because the banks were sinking in the stock market.They asked for it, because it was not realistic and they sold something that was not true.
Check the multitude of corruption cases in Catalonia. We are thieves, but in Catalonia is something else.
In the end we return to the economic issue, the revolution of the bourgeoisie. I have seen so many graphics of your financing that I do not know what to tell you.
We already treat this issue and in the end it depends on the desire to contribute.
In Galicia we do not consider the idea of independence so often because of funding issues and we also have competences.
The Psoe, which is on the left, governed for many years, and the two large cities are governed by the extreme left. It seems to me that is again the discourse that we are all fachas
There is also hypocrisy, because Artur Mas, one of the brains of all this did not share these views at all.

Spoiler

"Catalonia can aspire to stay in the Spanish state environment. It would be irresponsible to take the country to a path that would lead to collective frustration"
"Spain is not Yugoslavia. Between Spain and Catalonia there are enough bonds and collective history to take into account this common baggage, which manifests itself in the demography of Catalonia"
"The crown can be the link that gives stability to a model of coexistence but also a plurinational structure of the State. In the case of Spain, it is showing that it is a formula that works"
"I see the concept of independence old-fashioned and rusty"

 

[carvajal]

And what is the problem? every region has to accept the consecuences of being independent. Actually since 100 years ago, we past from 60 countries to 200, and not only for de-colonialization. Every year there is a new country and the last unifications were germany and yemen if I recall around 1989-1990?

As the world is more secure and more interdependent, decentralization is more likely to happen, and old national identity to resurface. If states (like spain) don´t give space at a federation, that is what it happens. A referendum 3 years ago and all solved but the stupidity of the macho style of PP (and covevring up the corruption with it) brought as to this situation. Actually I thank them. The so called indoctrination that they say would never do what PP accomplished for the independentism

You have more than 200 competences?. Don´t you think that´s a federal organization? What happens is that you do not have the whole money competence that is what interests you.

 

[4bars]

You have more than 200 competences?. Don´t you think that´s a federal organization? What happens is that you do not have the whole money competence that is what interests you.

Is not about the money as I said in many cases, for me, more important than that, is what you can do with it. They don´t allow to manage the port and airpot infrastructures among other key infrastructures for economic development for example.

The "estado de las autonomias" is a theoric descentralization, the reality is that the government is centralist and does not allow this descentralization. You can have as many competences in theory but not in practise as you can name a table chair, but still a table. And lately PP brought as much laws and competences to the Constitutional Tribunal as possible. Like:

Law for electricity for the poors
Law for bank taxation
Law against bullfighting
Law against fracking
Catalan law against climate change
And a long etc...

And some laws forbidden from the catalan estatut are allowed in others estatutos...

Sorry but as I say, there is catalanophobia from the powers in madrid. I don´t know how you can deny this

 

[carvajal]

Is not about the money as I said in many cases, for me, more important than that, is what you can do with it. They don´t allow to manage the port and airpot infrastructures among other key infrastructures for economic development for example.

The "estado de las autonomias" is a theoric descentralization, the reality is that the government is centralist and does not allow this descentralization. You can have as many competences in theory but not in practise as you can name a table chair, but still a table. And lately PP brought as much laws and competences to the Constitutional Tribunal as possible. Like:

Law for electricity for the poors
Law for bank taxation
Law against bullfighting
Law against fracking
Catalan law against climate change
And a long etc...

And some laws forbidden from the catalan estatut are allowed in others estatutos...

Sorry but as I say, there is catalanophobia from the powers in madrid. I don´t know how you can deny this

Well, in the end it´s always wanting a little more, until certain limits are set and then the opening becomes repression.
At the beginning of this thread(16th of September) I wrote:
"Obviously the Catalan government is waiting for the photo of a guardia civil arresting or hitting someone, to repeat again that the Spanish state is fascist."
In the end it is being verified that the Catalan police did not go to the calls of aid, that some security forces spied on others. Even in the investigation, the guardia civil was surprised since they couldn´t locate many moves and communications of the Catalan police.
Apparently that day prepaid phones were distributed for the first time.
Yesterday those same politicians sold the "vote against violence". They're going to chew that stuff like cows.
If you take a pro-independence guy(16,17 years old) and squeeze him a little, you will find out that is not sure when Franco died or the GPD in Andalucia but he ends up talking about the tax regime, about how expensive are the highways and about the article "x" of the statut. It seems that everyone has read the same manual.
We will continue tomorrow, now I have to pretend that I´ve been working

 

[4bars]

Well, in the end it´s always wanting a little more, until certain limits are set and then the opening becomes repression.
At the beginning of this thread(16th of September) I wrote:
"Obviously the Catalan government is waiting for the photo of a guardia civil arresting or hitting someone, to repeat again that the Spanish state is fascist."
In the end it is being verified that the Catalan police did not go to the calls of aid, that some security forces spied on others. Even in the investigation, the guardia civil was surprised since they couldn´t locate many moves and communications of the Catalan police.
Apparently that day prepaid phones were distributed for the first time.
Yesterday those same politicians sold the "vote against violence". They're going to chew that stuff like cows.
If you take a pro-independence guy(16,17 years old) and squeeze him a little, you will find out that is not sure when Franco died or the GPD in Andalucia but he ends up talking about the tax regime, about how expensive are the highways and about the article "x" of the statut. It seems that everyone has read the same manual.
We will continue tomorrow, now I have to pretend that I´ve been working

Wanting something more is free electricity for the ones they can´t afford it in winter? Wanting something more is going against fracking? and so on?

Wanting something more is wanting the laws that other estatutos have?

Catalan goverenment had more than a random picture, had hundreds of videos and thousands of pictures and horrified the world discovering the true nation of the spanish government an his fascist police state when it needs to be

Is not being verified yet and the GC closed less than 100 colleges and the Catalan police clossed almost 200 without a single incident. You are talking about Catalan police (that I am far of a big fan)?

Why we don´t talk why the catalan police is the only one that they don´t receive internacional terroism info from the spanish intelligence? why they lied that the mossos knew about the terrorist attack in barcelona in august when the brains of it was actually confident of the spanish intelligence recognized by the CNI when it went to the media 2 months later (not before), what more they are hiding?

You can conjecture as much as you want, but that could be as much BS as many other things that spanish government throw to the media to despresigate the catalan police after the completely anihilate the terrorist group without the spanish police implication and having catalan police in the dark in international terrorism. Was proven BS then, would not be strange would be BS now.

You could squeeze me a bit when I was 16 and 17 and I would talk none sense as well. And my argumentation would be piss poor and radical. Fortunately teenagers grow, calm down, if they are lucky travel, meet other people, maybe spanish, learn a bit of what is true or not, has a more solid sense of what they want (and that goes for EVERYTHING in life). That doesn´t mean that some remain the same. But i am embarrassed of my self 16 in independentism argumentation. But this is only logic

Have a good rest

 

[4bars]

By the way,

You were saying that the victory of ciudadanos has more merit because their seats were more difficult to get.

Today I read (trying to find out with more sources if it is throught) that without the Hondt law that rules Spanish elections, they would get 3 seats less.

 

[The Outsider]

On a separate note I have read that the Corsicans are starting to make a noise about breaking from France.

 

[4bars]

On a separate note I have read that the Corsicans are starting to make a noise about breaking from France.

But like always. In Lombardia and another region in Italy they had a referendum for more autonomy (+90% in favour)

In 2018 New Caledonia will have an independence referendum from France agreed with Paris

These tensions will always exists. Old fashioned States have to understand that and be more descentralized and give more power to the regions and learn how to live in harmony with their differences or it will happen like in Catalonia. And yes, that means risking part of your state, but in this time were military force is less and less accepted, you can´t hold your territories by force any longer and eventually it will happen if you don´t federate

 

[carvajal]

@4bars freedom for Tabarnia
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171226/433894662116/tabarnia.html
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2017/12/tabarnia-fictional-region-wants-leave-catalonia/

 

[Loublaze]

On a separate note I have read that the Corsicans are starting to make a noise about breaking from France.

The German speakers in south Tyrol (Italy) could be next. They feel more Austrian than Italian and its pretty tense there

 

[The Outsider]

The German speakers in south Tyrol (Italy) could be next. They feel more Austrian than Italian and its pretty tense there

That's a new one on me and I find this all really interesting the only concerning thing is, will there again be new movements for independence or mergers that risk violence.

 

[4bars]

@4bars freedom for Tabarnia
http://www.lavanguardia.com/politica/20171226/433894662116/tabarnia.html
https://www.vanguardngr.com/2017/12/tabarnia-fictional-region-wants-leave-catalonia/

We had police brutallity, all media pressuring, political prisioners, the legitimate president exiled, 155 triggered with their own interpretation invading catalan institution, forbidden yellow colour (lol), the central government recognizing that there is no separation of powers, etc...And after all catalan people still wants the same government and have more than 100.000 more independentists vots from the last elections (50.000 more from the 1 of October Referendum were everybody votes 4 or 5 times it seems).

Not accepting the defeat, now Ciutadans and the alt-right wing SSC makes for themselves the Tabarnia Bullshit from an alt-right wing nobodies being desperate to make it to the highlights in the spanish media (that they eagerly make publicity.)

Tabarnia, the so called no independentist area were 5 of 10 "comarcas" the independentism won (a couple of them even with more than 60% in votes FFS). And in 3 of the other 5 (including Barcelona) more than 50% of the votes goes with the parties that want the referendum and not the 155.

Saying that, as I said many times I believe in the right of selfdetermination no matter the size of the area accepting the consequences (as Catalonia should face theirs too). But is quite laughable the argumentation of Tabarnia analizying the results.

Happy new year with more of the same, yes, independentism growing year by year as well

 

[4bars]

That's a new one on me and I find this all really interesting the only concerning thing is, will there again be new movements for independence or mergers that risk violence.

Independentism will always be there, europe is rich in different cultures and this is a blessing and a curse. Hope Europe learnt from its past and acts democratically like UK and not Spain. We all should be capable to live in harmony allowing communities chosing their future to ensure collaboration with mutual respect respecting our difference and strengthen our ties through our similarities

 

[marktan]

Well looks like Spain did Puigdemont dirty, by withdrawing the arrest warrant initially and waiting until he left Belgium, then re-issuing it meaning he's now detained as he tried to get back to Belgium. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43535970

Seems like quite a few of the other Catalonian politicians have been detained too. I don't know about the legality of the independence vote, but jailing up all the people that were elected and potentially handing them lengthly sentences seems to me like about the worst thing you can do to a region that's already feeling pretty anti-state.