The EU is Machiavellian, currently it is in a submissive phase as it wants to hold the EU political project together and so recognises large countries and not smaller entities trying to obtain self determination. In earlier phases when it was closer to the US it was happier to recognise smaller entities like Kosovo.
Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain
- Thread starter barros
- Start date
Serbia was never a part of the EU unlike Spain too tbf.
And the situations are also nothing alike. The crumbling Yugoslavia was in a state of constant internal military struggle and splitting parts clearly didn't fancy to be part of it anymore. It's not at all clear that the inhabitants of Catalonia actually want independence. The EU recognising Catalonia as nation would be utterly daft even if we ignore realpolitik.
They have a seat with the PP, that marches with them, give them money (Franciso Franco Fundation), they leve the parliament when is to vote to condemn the dictatorship, etc...Again trying to bring him back to Life? Its at least recent or 20/11/16 in los caídos?.
As I told you they dont even have a seat in the Parlamento.
In Cataluña were also saluting(with the left) and singing Segadors,with the mossos standing in the middle.Quite scary too(not for me but for the neighbours not part of the ****)
As I said, there is no a new extremist right wing party because they always had the PP
That's nonsense.Maybe there are some more conservative sectors in the party but it's like saying that Merkel is nazi because is in the european right party.
Some proof of the use of the money from Franco foundation?.
Meanwhile ANC and Omnium are using the money from the state to finance independence, how repressive.
So,the photo from the previous post? When happened?
No, i am not saying that 8 million voters of PP are fascist. i am saying that lots of the fascists votes for them (and more than will vote now). So they have seats as representative in the Parliament
150.000 euros to fundacion francisco franco
http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2017/0...ba-a-la-fundacion-francisco-franc_a_22107886/
PP refuses to get back the money from fundación francisco franco
http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/...r-ayuda-fundacion-francisco-franco_77864.html
Meanwhile ANC and Omnium receive money to finance independence? well, maybe because the catalan government seeks getting the independence? quite coherent I must say.
So maybe PP is seeking to get as close as possible at Franco regime?
Then about the picture, so it matters when is taken? where? is fascism in Spain XXI century mate. But you want last month? No worries mate
And Bonus track (don´t know if is from these dates)
Pure arian race
And like this there are plenty. is what Spain is, not just a few fascists, and lots more silent accomplices, and a lot more are fine to be in the same boat to reach the goal.
You ask, I deliver. EVERY-SINGLE-TIME
So you chose a photo trying to make It like a routine,the "Spain nowadays", when are the freaks that go to los Caídos every November.No, i am not saying that 8 million voters of PP are fascist. i am saying that lots of the fascists votes for them (and more than will vote now). So they have seats as representative in the Parliament
150.000 euros to fundacion francisco franco
http://www.huffingtonpost.es/2017/0...ba-a-la-fundacion-francisco-franc_a_22107886/
PP refuses to get back the money from fundación francisco franco
http://www.elperiodicodearagon.com/...r-ayuda-fundacion-francisco-franco_77864.html
Meanwhile ANC and Omnium receive money to finance independence? well, maybe because the catalan government seeks getting the independence? quite coherent I must say.
So maybe PP is seeking to get as close as possible at Franco regime?
Then about the picture, so it matters when is taken? where? is fascism in Spain XXI century mate. But you want last month? No worries mate
And Bonus track (don´t know if is from these dates)
Pure arian race
And like this there are plenty. is what Spain is, not just a few fascists, and lots more silent accomplices, and a lot more are fine to be in the same boat to reach the goal.
You ask, I deliver. EVERY-SINGLE-TIME
I would call It "populismo y demagogia de foros" .About your photos. Some are the 5 idiots that I told you before.Old people and football radicals(fights in Valencia).
In another photo the demostration in Colón, 1million people and some with the cara al sol.
At the end everybody can visit Cataluña and check if that's your reality.
Then it's normal that they get millions of euros to promote your culture and use It for other issues.
The old problem of giving you the hand to see how you get an arm.
Anyway I also think that doesn't matter what I say,you already have a reply ready
People were being killed, military weapons were used against the population. Catalonia wants independence for economic reasons, not for survival. These type of comparisons are just disgusting, it's a total lack of respect for struggling people.
read what I said:
"is what Spain is, not just a few fascists, and lots more silent accomplices, and a lot more are fine to be in the same boat to reach the goal."
Not a majority but completely permitted. All the pictures and videos that I post afterwords, are not only old people and every November in valle de los caidos. Was in the weekend after the 155 and other demonstrations during October. None in vlle de los caidos. I count very much more than 5 (idioits indeed), and there are more in the net, and in news. Are not by far isolated cases and lots that they are fascist don´t even use the symbology. Just they are.
I found it right spending millions to promote independentism? Is what people voted 2 years ago. SPECIFICALLY for that. As a majority
PP is a Majortity. I hope they didnt vote him to defend Franco's heritage, because if not it converts Spain as fascist as being majority. but as I FULLY KNOW, that Spain is not a majority of fascist, I know that they didn´t vote PP for that. Therefore, Why PP is spending money to fascist organizations? Because PP is fascist, NOT SPAIN. But that is a problem because Spain is not ruling. PP is ruling. So we have fascits rulers, that is what it really matters in the end.
Answers ready? Not at all. Actually I thank you because you help me hone my argumentation. But your comment is just driven because I can answer always right with facts despite my biase.
You asked links of the polls, check: no comment from your side of what you think about it. Just o yeah youa re right (thank god)
You asked links for prove of francisco franco fundation, check: Not a comment from you what it means the links of PP and franco. Just attacking the links of catalan government and independentist fundations (though 100% coherent with what they said they would do in the elections)
Pcitures of the demonstrations of nazis and fascists in october, check: You diminishing impact and acusing of fake news
Deliver deliver deliver from my site. Frustration to see the truth from yours
"is what Spain is, not just a few fascists, and lots more silent accomplices, and a lot more are fine to be in the same boat to reach the goal."
Not a majority but completely permitted. All the pictures and videos that I post afterwords, are not only old people and every November in valle de los caidos. Was in the weekend after the 155 and other demonstrations during October. None in vlle de los caidos. I count very much more than 5 (idioits indeed), and there are more in the net, and in news. Are not by far isolated cases and lots that they are fascist don´t even use the symbology. Just they are.
I found it right spending millions to promote independentism? Is what people voted 2 years ago. SPECIFICALLY for that. As a majority
PP is a Majortity. I hope they didnt vote him to defend Franco's heritage, because if not it converts Spain as fascist as being majority. but as I FULLY KNOW, that Spain is not a majority of fascist, I know that they didn´t vote PP for that. Therefore, Why PP is spending money to fascist organizations? Because PP is fascist, NOT SPAIN. But that is a problem because Spain is not ruling. PP is ruling. So we have fascits rulers, that is what it really matters in the end.
Answers ready? Not at all. Actually I thank you because you help me hone my argumentation. But your comment is just driven because I can answer always right with facts despite my biase.
You asked links of the polls, check: no comment from your side of what you think about it. Just o yeah youa re right (thank god)
You asked links for prove of francisco franco fundation, check: Not a comment from you what it means the links of PP and franco. Just attacking the links of catalan government and independentist fundations (though 100% coherent with what they said they would do in the elections)
Pcitures of the demonstrations of nazis and fascists in october, check: You diminishing impact and acusing of fake news
Deliver deliver deliver from my site. Frustration to see the truth from yours
Agree that the situations are not comparable AT ALL, specially for the gravity. But saying is for economic reasons is as much disgusting. And of course not knowing anything of the past and of the present. Happiness is not all about the money.
In which way your happiness hasn't been made possible in catalonia?
I am starting a gig right now. Ill answer later. Though i think i said it many times (had to say it after you accussed me of not reading posts 
)
)You are the expert in fake news,the woman with all the broken fingers,the group with a estelada stopping the police, the amazing amount of injured people or the sexual abuse from police without a single proof.
using Money for those issues is prevaricación and they Will go to prison.
I meet some independentistas and at the end we are all fachas.The biggest social pressure,the real control is in the university of Barcelona,or the threats to people against the ****(graffitis in houses,students humiliated,even the other day a guy got a big "facha" in his car because had a sticker with the flag of Spain),more and more cases every day.
2000companies already left Cataluña,including Banco Sabadell and La Caixa.
The Money of Franco foundation,which is definitely bad is 150.000
Junqueras used 6million euros destined to social welfare to pay your matrix
You guys have a Franco foundation? Is like having a Salazar foundation in Portugal or Hitler foundation in Germany... what’s wrong with you neighbor?
I agree it is not clear yet surely the EU could apply pressure on Spain to formally set a date and conditions to allow a recognised election to take place.
That's ridiculous. Not the job of the EU at all and it would violate a billion different laws and ideas of the EU.
Sedition and traitors is such an outdated crime in a modern democracy, I see that French Catalans and Basques are also supporting freedom for the Catalans detained by Madrid.
Putting at risk constantly everyday. In some universities catalan is none existant. That thanks to the PP, after we voted that we wanted our education system in catalan, just because 1 pupil wants in spanish, they can change the entire class to spanish (and not the other way around) jeopardizing our future as a culture. That my language in the judiciary system is practically noneexistant (8% of the sentences). I am very fluent in Spanish (99%) but one feels more comfortable with his mother tongue, no matter one. And in matterss of justice is important. That PP and PSOE voted against catalan to be an official language in europe (4-5 millions spokes it as a mother language daily).
For some people that is stupid. Most of these "some people" basically have a predominant language and they don´t fear to lose it. Some simply just don´t care. I care, as other people cares of other things that I consider ridiculuous
Then, leaving the economic topis aside, not worth to discuss it, about managing our own resources (whichever are), not being able to squeeze the maximum of our existent infrastructures, like airports (centralized in Madrid) or ports (90% of port operations are done in Madrid....with no sea), Barcelona and Tarragona being the 2 most important ports in Spain. Barcelona the most important in the Mediterranian sea. How is possible that the regional government and Barcelona Commerce Chamber, that I think knows better for the catalan economy, can´t decide (just counsel) what is best? And that is just an example and the constant boicot from Madrid to european infrastructures if that could benefit madrid like the mediterranean corridor train.
Being one of the most wealthy regions in Spain it does not mean being happy my friend. Being in aa golden cage does not make the bird free. There is a lot of underlying shit. Like the minister of education in 2011 saying that they had to make catalan kids more spanish (because they speak catalan), or an exminister saying in tweeter that she would not go again to a restaurant because they served them bottled water from catalonia. or a politician saying to the minister of interior in a secret recording saying merrily:" we destroyed their health care system. Or Operation Catalonia, a secret and ilegal operation to go against catalan politicians faking acusations. And a lot of other things. There is hate in factic powers in Spain towards catalonia, since centuries. And living with this, as a political animal as I am, constantly on my head, does not makes me happy for the sake of my culture and country
I appologized for that girl here and other places. In my friends media I always message them about any fake news to take it out constantly because you know my friend? the only ones harmed by them is us, because it provokes crevices that people like you uses pitifully as an argument to deny what is 99% truth
You met independentist like that, no doubt about it. And they are jerks. Yesterday I was talking with a guy from madrid and a girl from valencia and prejudicies are a very harmful thing to do. But as I said here in this forum and to them, Spain is not fascist. That would be ridiculous. Is the government that is fascist...and theey have the power. And is not me who says it. BBC asked this question last day on TV, other people internationally says the same. Spanish people fascists? Not at all. Some of them? I think is quite obvious than yes, like anywhere else in the world. The problem is that in spain was never defeat it and was normalized like something you can still be even if you don´t use the symbology. You are not fascist. And I am 100% sure that we have way more in common that different, just we clash in this topic and even if we could speak face to face (instead of writting where you lose a lot of what you want to transmit) we would reach a lot of agreements in this topic even disagreeing in the outcome that we want. Just using common sense.
Then, what you make me laugh is about us making pressure...With the government having the rule of law, the police, the military, the political power, 99% of the media, 100% of the international narrative being able to summit the consules and explain their version, being the european interlocutor, having an interior ministery with operations based in spread fake acusations to catalan politicians (speaking of resources weel spend) etc... I found it basically pathetic that we, that we only have the people, can beat all that. It does not make sense
Then, you speak about 2000 companies leaving catalonia. Well 2k of 216k. None from the EU or US, guess why? maybe little tiny pressures form someone? How come that the law is the law but hey, guess what! we can change it in 24 hours if that harms catalonia making companies "leave" catalonia. And I say "leave" because they only changed the PO box, offices and production stays, of course, there and even the spanish government said that it does not make difference at all in short term. Frankly, not much worrisome
6 million? I repeat, catalan government was voted to do EXACTLY THAT. And governments spend the money according of what they brought to the program and to do what they voters said. Is PP expect to do exactly that? giving money to fascist organizations? scarey. And anyway is peanuts compared with 300.000 a day of the boats of the police plus the extra salary and food for 10.000. Easy solution, let us vote and we can move on. with or without you
Sometimes I forgot the scary thing about it. Is not that they give 150.000. Is that they allow that kind of organizations to exist. That says a ot about the factic powers of one country and what they can transmit to the population through that
True that. Now say that to the greeks that voted in a referendum that they didn´t want to be "rescued" for the third time
They should elect a government that does what they want; not one that tries to use a referendum as bargaining chip. Nobody forced the Greek government to make another deal with EU&co. Their government just didn't like to deal with the consequences that would have followed a default.True that. Now say that to the greeks that voted in a referendum that they didn´t want to be "rescued" for the third time
I think that in some of my first post I said that you(the independentists) needed some violence to sell internationally the repression,blabla.
It was your media and your "tuiteros" who used all this pitifully.
Why happened? Because your police didn't follow the orders.They could have gone to take the ballots at 5:00 and didn't do It.
Catalan government had embassies abroad!that we all pay and you use for things that you shouldn't.
And of course la Caixa/Sabadell are important,be sure that Junqueras didn't expect it.
The pressure came mainly from the stock market,the government didn't have to do too much.
The problem is not about the government,your attitude and the anti Spain indoctrination will be the same with PP or PSOE.
Maybe Sánchez will agree a referéndum if he has the chance in a government with Podemos.
I wouldn't accept it(a referéndum)You have created a very dangerous feeling anti Spain that didn't exist before so before the referéndum we need some national recontiliation.
As Vato wrote weeks ago, the hatred comes mainly from Cataluña to us, created for your irresponsible politicians and our slow president.
I would accept a new model for Cataluña.
Nothing else.
For the rest you will have to quote Montesquieu.
Ps; yes you are right,write so long messages in english is a nightmare.(I told you that you could write me a PM if you wanted)
Spanish didn't kill Catalons, neither they send in excile more than half of Catalan's people. In addition, before Kosovo declared independence, there was a series of negotiations, the final one lead by a UN emissary (with the main powers already kind of agreed that the recommendation should be respected). When the UN emissary recommended independence, Russia backed away saying that they are going to put veto in UN, which lead to an another round of negotiations which resulted in nothing (US and EU wanted independence, Russia wanted Serbia to agree in any plan which wasn't going to happen anyway), and then Kosovo was forced to declare independence.
So, not many similarities.
Chomsky said the talks about Kosovo were a joke all the local representatives were locked outside while foreign VIPs made all the decisions.
Chomky is a very smart man, who often talks a lot of bullshit and he has to criticize US government as a matter of principle.
But no, in this case, he is totally wrong. There were negotiations in Raimboullet, which resulted with NATO bombing Serbia after Serbia didn't accept any deal, there were negotiations to start negotiations for the final status of Kosovo, then there were negotiations which lasted for more than 2 years under the guidance of Martti Ahtisaari (who even won a Nobel price for it) and when both Kosovo and Serbia were represented there at the highest level (president, PM, speaker, member of oppositions). When Martti Ahtisaari recommended a conditional independence, with more rights for the Serbian minority than in any European country in addition to another million things, Serbia didn't accept it and Russia threatened with veto. Then there was an another round of negotiations, this time lead by three people (one German/EU, an American and a Russian) which resulted in nothing. Then Kosovo adopted Ahtisaari's plan unilaterally and declared independence. It wasn't a good solution cause Ahtisaari's plan was a compromise (Kosovo get independence, Serbians get more rights than any minority ever had), but when only one part uses it, it makes things quite bad. Better solution would have been if Kosovo declared independence without adopting the plan, but anyway.
Regardless, the situations are totally different. No wars, no negotiations, no discrimination, no denial of human rights in Catalonia. That doesn't mean that Catalonia doesn't have reasons for independence, it just makes the situation very different and so it isn't surprising that the behavior of other countries is different.
Last edited:
So what do you think about the charges of sedition aka treason, as it looks increasingly possible that the Catalans will be handed back to Spain?
Belgium has a maximum of 60 days to hand them over to Spain to comply with the European Arrest Warrant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41881961
Belgium has a maximum of 60 days to hand them over to Spain to comply with the European Arrest Warrant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41881961
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Oh no you don't understand I had to tell the police force to go and beat up voters and rip up polling booths because of the fake news.
Last edited:
@Raoul -That seems desperate to me back in then nineties when I was learning Spanish at evening school the Spanish lady made it clear that Catalonia was different from the rest of Spain.
She was probably a catalan separatist then.
Don't think so, from Burgos.
Bad night for the unionists by the looks of things, independence supporting parties will keep their majority.
Will this have any effect in practical terms?
Rajoy should resign now, tbh. He called new elections to stop pro-independence parties and lost.
Should have resigned years ago, he's the Spanish Cameron or May. Out of touch with real people, totally misjudging the feelings on the ground. Maybe these politicians that are thinking of gambling for more political power with elections and referendums, should sign up to redcafe and listen to members opinions. they're not getting it right so far.
Ciudadanos won the elections(unionists) and the pro Spain part got more votes (52%) but the electoral law gives proportionally more value to the votes in provinces with not so much population.
For example,to get a seat in the province of Barcelona can cost 60.000 votes and in Lleida/Girona only 40.000.
And since the independentism is strong in the countryside/towns they kept an easy majority.
Ciudadanos has grown a lot in recent years and probably Will continue doing It in the general elections.
Rajoy failed.He should have delayed these elections some more months.Besides the candidate(Albiol) wasn't a very attractive choice.
Now let's see if Puigdemont Will Come back from Belgium.
Today Rovira (candidate of ERC,since Junqueras is in prison) has been also accused of rebellion.
There was a big net of people involved,with police spying to police and politicians
For example,to get a seat in the province of Barcelona can cost 60.000 votes and in Lleida/Girona only 40.000.
And since the independentism is strong in the countryside/towns they kept an easy majority.
Ciudadanos has grown a lot in recent years and probably Will continue doing It in the general elections.
Rajoy failed.He should have delayed these elections some more months.Besides the candidate(Albiol) wasn't a very attractive choice.
Now let's see if Puigdemont Will Come back from Belgium.
Today Rovira (candidate of ERC,since Junqueras is in prison) has been also accused of rebellion.
There was a big net of people involved,with police spying to police and politicians
He should have gone to Scotland... that would have been so messy as the snp / Scottish government would be at loggerheads with the uk government...
True and Scotland has it's own legal system separate from the UK and England. So politically messy yet in theory they could have handled it.
Yeah... Plus factor in the whole brexit and the additional fallout ref Scottish independence/ eu membership... Gibraltar.... yeah would have been messy... wouldn't be shocked to see him rock up there and apply for asylum