Catalonia referendum| Catalonia declares independence from Spain

[Classical Mechanic]

Well looks like Spain did Puigdemont dirty, by withdrawing the arrest warrant initially and waiting until he left Belgium, then re-issuing it meaning he's now detained as he tried to get back to Belgium. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-43535970

Seems like quite a few of the other Catalonian politicians have been detained too. I don't know about the legality of the independence vote, but jailing up all the people that were elected and potentially handing them lengthly sentences seems to me like about the worst thing you can do to a region that's already feeling pretty anti-state.

I would have thought illegally trying to declare independence of a region within a country is a pretty big crime, no?

 

[marktan]

I would have thought illegally trying to declare independence of a region within a country is a pretty big crime, no?

I don't remember the specifics exactly, but from what I recall it was a vote to hold the referendum -> referendum -> declaration of independence -> Catalonia placed under direct rule -> new elections -> separatists back in power. Since the referendum wasn't legally binding (as far as I recall) and Puigdemont etc said they wanted dialogue, I don't know if you can exactly class it as 'illegally trying to declare independence'.

Regardless the main point I'm making is that if 90%+ of a 45% turnout vote to leave Spain, with relations already strained by the violence that occured during the referundum, jailing the elected leaders of the region seems to be a pretty bad move in trying to restore some normality to the situation. It's like everything that happened with the Scottish referendum but in reverse, you're not allowed a vote, the police will beat up people trying to vote, abolish the scottish parliment, and for good measure jail Sturgeon and co. Madness really.

 

[jackofalltrades]

I don't remember the specifics exactly, but from what I recall it was a vote to hold the referendum -> referendum -> declaration of independence -> Catalonia placed under direct rule -> new elections -> separatists back in power. Since the referendum wasn't legally binding (as far as I recall) and Puigdemont etc said they wanted dialogue, I don't know if you can exactly class it as 'illegally trying to declare independence'.

Regardless the main point I'm making is that if 90%+ of a 45% turnout vote to leave Spain, with relations already strained by the violence that occured during the referundum, jailing the elected leaders of the region seems to be a pretty bad move in trying to restore some normality to the situation. It's like everything that happened with the Scottish referendum but in reverse, you're not allowed a vote, the police will beat up people trying to vote, abolish the scottish parliment, and for good measure jail Sturgeon and co. Madness really.

From the point of view of the Spanish state, the "referendum" was illegal, pure and simple. There's no such thing as a legally binding illegal referéndum. 90% of 45% is a signicant minority.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

Spain should simply let a soft pro-independence person to become the new Catalonia president. It would be ok for both parts.

 

[Javi]

I don't remember the specifics exactly, but from what I recall it was a vote to hold the referendum -> referendum -> declaration of independence -> Catalonia placed under direct rule -> new elections -> separatists back in power. Since the referendum wasn't legally binding (as far as I recall) and Puigdemont etc said they wanted dialogue, I don't know if you can exactly class it as 'illegally trying to declare independence'.

Regardless the main point I'm making is that if 90%+ of a 45% turnout vote to leave Spain, with relations already strained by the violence that occured during the referundum, jailing the elected leaders of the region seems to be a pretty bad move in trying to restore some normality to the situation. It's like everything that happened with the Scottish referendum but in reverse, you're not allowed a vote, the police will beat up people trying to vote, abolish the scottish parliment, and for good measure jail Sturgeon and co. Madness really.

There are no legal grounds for a province in Spain to unilaterally declare independance, not in the constitution and not anywhere else. Hence the action they took was illegal, there is no doubt about that. The legal route to achieve what these guys want is to change the constitution which would require majority or super-majority in the parliament of Spain which atm looks pretty hopeless.

The actual referendum isn't really convenient to make your point since the whole context was such, that basically only people voting yes turned out to make a point against Madrid trying to supress them. The latest numbers would suggest that the pro-independance movement is somewhere between 50-60% so no clear cut case.

If you want to make the case for catalan independance you should be arguing the right of every people for self-governance. At least you'd have a point there, although again it's not like Catalunya is being opressed or something.

What Rajoy did was clearly moronic and together with the Scotland referendum will serve as a very nice case study on how to deal with separatist movements for independance in a multi-ethnic (scots are not really english are they? ) or at least diverse nation state and how not to.

 

[4bars]

The Spanish Government is losing it.

A politic situation that could be tackled easily long ago like the scottish referendum, is becoming a legal problem mixt with repression. For me it is clear why they did not want to tackle that problem before. Pride + Corruption

Pride: Spanish character is the same of the "conquistador", the one that impose historically their culture and their government to their colonies. They have an imperialistic view and anything in Spain that is does not come from the castillian culture, is of the minor level/interest. First Spanish (castillian) then the rest. There is no respect for anything else (like in UK and France with other cultures)

Corruption: For the Spanish government (and for the former catalan) that conflict had been perfect to hide all the corruption cases. PP, the party that is in the government is officially the party in Europe with more people from their party involved in judiciary cases of corruption. So as long everybody spoke about the despicable independentist catalans, the least you spoke about the corruption cases

Meanwhile, most of you don't know that Spain aproved a gag law. Lately some people had been sentenced to jail to make a bad taste joke in twitter about how aa guy got killed in the 70's that was Franco's right hand. The equivalent as someone in Germany would make a joke with Goebbels.Or for feck sake, all the parodies videos in internet with Hiltler in "the downfall"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...tweeting-jokes-about-franco-era-assassination

Even the daughter of the fascist guy said he didn't want her to go to jail. The police are going home to detain some people that insults some of the PP government member for Hate crimes, and under the terrorism law but when is about the left party Podemos, nothing happens (and of course not about menacing the catalan president)

more than 10 musicians had been jailed to insult the king, saying some truth and very unfortunate and disgusting lyrics too....but going to jail? One collection of the most important Public gallery art in Madrid was removed because was showing (in the artist opinion) pictures of political prisioners (not only catalan prisioners)

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-...nyc-josep-miquel-arenas-beltran-a8226421.html

https://www.thelocal.es/20180221/ce...hoto-exhibition-of-spains-political-prisoners


And on and on and on. Spanish government is showing that the fascism never left. Is far from being a dictatorship, but we are closer to the Erdogan's Turkey than any european State.

IN the catalan case, they speak about legality (dicatatorships have legality too) and that the law should be change if we would like to organize a legal referendum. TO change the law it only needs political will. And the spanish government has no poltical will to listen millions of catalans. There are millions that want the independence and even more that wants a referendm (83% of catalan population and 56% of Spanish population). Spanish government had the political will to change the law in 24 hours to allow catalan companies to change territory to just harm the catalan economy. I mean, to harm one of your territories and cause inestability! how fecked up is that. How you pretend to change people's minds.


With the catalan politicians situation they are perverting the terminology and the meaning of the words to put it by force in the definition of the rebellion. It has to be violent and the catalan politicians had like a mantra be peaceful all the time. It is complicated to explain in english because if it is complicated to speak in spanish the perversion of the language, imagine translating it.

The truth is that internationally, Belgium said that they would not extradite any catalan politicians because it does not make any sense. The same switzerland. Now it is the turn of UK and Germany that the law is way more similar than the Spanish constitution (as the later took the German as sort of template in some aspects), so it seems the catalan president will be extradite. but if not, it would show that Spain it would be practically alone in incarcerating people for their ideas.

After the last elections, we could not invest Puigdemont as president, because they would not allow it (though spanish law says they should allow it), after Puigdemont they asked to invest president, one of the politicians that are in prision, but the judge prevaricated and did not allow it against the spanish law that should allow the person to get out of the prision for the day that is declared president. When a third guy was about to be invested president, they asked him and 4 more to go to court next day and they put them in jail. Basically, catalans voted and from Madrid don't allow anyone that is not from their taste to be president. That is their democracy

They don't want o lose the grip, they are humilating the entire catalan society, no prisioners, we are not castillians, they treat us like a colony. Another petty example...all the state student grants had been paid but in catalonia for a "bureaucratic mistake" they will end paying, but it will cause delays and pain to hundreds of thousands and that with many things and had being doing the same with investments in the territory and others for years, is not something new. But the majority of spanish people don't know because the media is a 1 block with the spanish central power. the division of powers does not exist and the media, as an spanish author (not friend of catalans precisely) said 100 years ago:"We deserve to lose Catalonia. That filthy Madrilenian press is doing the same job as in Cuba. He does not know. It is the barbarian mentality of Castile, his big balls brains (they have testicles instead of brains in the head). " or like George Orwell said: " Early in life I had noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie..."

The UN issued a warning saying that they have to respect the politic rights of the prisoners (being able to be invested catalan president as the spanish law says). Basically the judge is prevaricating. Spanish can ignore this warning of course

The European court had overturn a sentence where some people burned the king pictures. A caseof 2007, little by little will appear more and more like that. Of couse, Spanish can ignore that. But it says a lot a out the freedom of speech that it exist in Spain.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/13/world/europe/echr-spain-free-speech.html?smid=tw-share

International Amnesty said that one of the catalan politicians should be released immediately (the others are in the exact situation, but he was the one that tried to be invested president)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...elease-of-jordi-sanchez-jailed-catalan-leader

UN independent Alfred-Maurice De Zayas says is outreageous to have political prisioners in Spain:

http://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=22295

Spain Can Ignore all that, but it shows the true nature of what they are doing to the country, not only catalonia


They think that imprisoning the leaders and left others in exile will extinct the 2 million people (and growing) will of independence. Repression is the expression of a weak democracy and weak government. It will not happen soon, but this government and this tendency to the fascism state has to crumble eventually

Catalan independentism was born for culture reasons and cultural surviving, we were a minority. Then lots more it was for economical reasons, some true some egoistical brexit style. But the latest and that impregnated the 2 former, is that we saw that we can't live in this kind of country, with a subjacent fascism. That the nazi salute and the fascist songs are sang freely on the streets while the ones that criticize the government and the king are imprisoned. WHen the royal family and the politicians are the most corrupt in europe and nothing happen to them. When the main companies in Spain are ruled by the families that ruled with Franco. Where the judiciary, military and police structure and system still the same back then. When last week the 3 main parties refused to pass a law that lift the veto to condemn the fascist members. 0 condemned from that regime

The rest of Spain think that is a battle against catalonia, but they don't realize that we are the only ones that we go to the streets to fight not only for catalonia but to overthrown the old regim still. And if we don't succeed they will be fecked as well.

Foreigners see spain as the party, good weather, food and nice people. And it is. But in terms of politics is a facade that hides a very problematic state. And Catalonia, as always historically, always is there spearheading changes, for good or bad reasons, because we are the pulse of that country always. And if something is rotten, we smell it first

PS: Sorry for the last cocky statement, but seeing like the rest of spain don't do anything, don't go to the streets to protest for the most fundamental rights of freedom of speech (not about catalans, but about singers and normal people that are incarcerated), that they are fecked in their arses with the pensions, working rights and the political corruption and they keep voting the same, is despairing. Spain is full of "paletos" (recknecks), catalonia too. But at least some of the polticians paid a political price and we fight for what we want to change

 

[carvajal]

Tomorrow I answer you @4bars. I would need too much time, but for the little I read:
Again, you confuse Spain with the PP party, and you justify one thing with another "as there is corruption and they have not all gone to jail it is incomprehensible that our politicians are in jail."
You always forget the part "since they prepare a plot against the state,with all possible scenarios, including the use of violence and embezzling money."
You start with the bullshit of Castilla and oppression, repeating again % that nobody believes.

In addition, those in provisional prison from last week , it was mainly because Rovira escaped to Switzerland. She condemned her companions.
On Catalan public television (which the state did not intervene on 155) they encourage violence,there are threats to the judge and his family, absurd criticism of the EU( although the most daring called nazis to the Germans)
Today in France they arrested a politician for rejoicing at the death of the policeman. I'm telling you about the freedom of expression theme.

 

[4bars]

Tomorrow I answer you @4bars. I would need too much time, but for the little I read:
Again, you confuse Spain with the PP party, and you justify one thing with another "as there is corruption and they have not all gone to jail it is incomprehensible that our politicians are in jail."
You always forget the part "since they prepare a plot against the state,with all possible scenarios, including the use of violence and embezzling money."
You start with the bullshit of Castilla and oppression, repeating again % that nobody believes.

I dont confuse PP + PSOE + Cs and their voters that are + 80% of the votes. They are not there because of magic. Spanish population has responsability of it. Over and over when they vote them over and over while they are fecked in their arse.

That bullshit of castilla that nobody believes?

Articles of switzerland saying precisely that. Articles from aftonbladet in sweden or in Uk asking if is a fascist state.

I am in Canada and in Vancouver and you can see french in the welcome of the city, in the billboards or in the publicity in the vans in english and french. French first as a sign of respect and cultural enrichment. HIstorically, castilla always tried to wipe out anything that is not of their culture. being catalan, basque or galician and that is a blatant true. Is cultural repression. 2011 minister of education saying that they need to make catalan kids more spanish, like speaking catalan is not being spanish. 100% of catalans speak spanish. not even 60% speak catalan (basque and galician even worse). And the government want to impose more and more spanish.

Of course I will repeat the truth, as much as needed and as much as history and numbers tells me the truth

Tomorrow I answer you @4bars
In addition, those in provisional prison from last week , it was mainly because Rovira escaped to Switzerland. She condemned her companions.
On Catalan public television (which the state did not intervene on 155) they encourage violence,there are threats to the judge and his family, absurd criticism of the EU( although the most daring called nazis to the Germans)
Today in France they arrested a politician for rejoicing at the death of the policeman. I'm telling you about the freedom of expression theme.

She left less than 24 hours before they got imprissoned because they knew. She didn't enter to prision before. The other 4 they did 3 months ago, and when they went out, they did not flee, and when the judge told them to come back they did not flee neither like her. Is utterly BS. If they went to prison is because they wanted to jail anyone that could be declared president. They said that they were about to make Turull president and the judge called them back. Everybody knew they were going to prison. And most of them they didn't flee. All the 4 that enter, they were in prison 3 months ago, I repeat
The catalan politicians they said OVER and OVER and there are tons of tweets calling to restrain and always be peaceful. Is our signature. And had been shown, not like unionist demostrations, quite the opposite. Soon your Media will make you say that they were the independentist that beat the shit out of the policemen on the 1-O

And about the freedom of expression, if you think that what is happening with the singers, art, tweets and all is normal (nothing about catalonia). That explain all about why lots of catalans we don't want to be part of your society. 1 case in France or UK or whenever does not compare in all that is happening in Spain. You will compare rejoicing a death of the policeman with burning a picture of the king or making a joke of carrero blanco?

Why the policemen chat group insulting and menacing Carmena, the mayor of Madrid (from an alternative left minor party) was not prosecuted but just banter then? why a military guy mounted in a tank menacing Puigdemont is not prosecuted? I am not asking the 2 latest to happen. they should not be prosecuted, but it shows the no division of powers. No freedom of speech AND only for one side, the fascist one

 

[maniak]

I don't know about the legality of the independence vote, but jailing up all the people that were elected and potentially handing them lengthly sentences seems to me like about the worst thing you can do to a region that's already feeling pretty anti-state.

I don't know the law either, but I know that if this was being done by Russia, China or Venezuela, even if they were claiming it was their national law, the west and the EU would be condemning it and demanding political prisoners to be released.

 

[Javi]

I don't know the law either, but I know that if this was being done by Russia, China or Venezuela, even if they were claiming it was their national law, the west and the EU would be condemning it and demanding political prisoners to be released.

What exactly is it that should be codemned in your opinion?

 

[maniak]

What exactly is it that should be codemned in your opinion?

Politicians who didn't resort nor incited to violence are being thrown in jail, this should always be condemned. One thing is to not grant them power, but jail? That's some totalitarian bs.

 

[Javi]

Politicians who didn't resort nor incited to violence are being thrown in jail, this should always be condemned. One thing is to not grant them power, but jail? That's some totalitarian bs.

They are not actually being jailed but are in custody because of risk of flight IIRC (awaiting trial). Surely you are not going to argue that politicians should have a pass on all crimes without physical violence? Matter of fact is that these people are suspects for illegal activity under spain criminal law which has democratic legitimacy, so I'm still not sure what exactly it is that they should be condemned for by the EU.

Again, clearly the path that led to this situation is fecked up and that's on the idiot Rajoy.

 

[maniak]

They are not actually being jailed but are in custody because of risk of flight IIRC (awaiting trial). Surely you are not going to argue that politicians should have a pass on all crimes without physical violence? Matter of fact is that these people are suspects for illegal activity under spain criminal law which has democratic legitimacy, so I'm still not sure what exactly it is that they should be condemned for by the EU.

Again, clearly the path that led to this situation is fecked up and that's on the idiot Rajoy.

A pass on all crimes? Of course not. Trying to put forward a political agenda using democratic means? Surely dialogue instead of jail is the democratic way to go.

Be honest here, with the current posture by the central government, is there a legal way to discuss or obtain independence in Catalonia? There isn't, so how can that be democratic?

 

[4bars]

They are not actually being jailed but are in custody because of risk of flight IIRC (awaiting trial). Surely you are not going to argue that politicians should have a pass on all crimes without physical violence? Matter of fact is that these people are suspects for illegal activity under spain criminal law which has democratic legitimacy, so I'm still not sure what exactly it is that they should be condemned for by the EU.

Again, clearly the path that led to this situation is fecked up and that's on the idiot Rajoy.

That is what they are selling in the spanish media. None of them would flee the country if they did not put the firsts one in jail. And the funny thing is that they are accused of illegalities by spanish government that is the most corrupt in Europe.

They are accused of embezelment that is getting more and more clear recognized by Montoro that they did not spend money in the 1-O but it was private parties, and for rebellion. Rebellion it needs to be violent and over and over they repeat about the peaceful demonstrations.

Is funny like all the spaniards criticizes the attorneys, judges, media, etc...

When is about PP PSOE monarchy corruption and that the judiciary system is not independent, but suddenly, in this case is doing an excellent job.

Even the judge is prevaricating not allowing the prisioners to go to the parliament to be invested. In a few words that is what is happening:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[4bars]

A pass on all crimes? Of course not. Trying to put forward a political agenda using democratic means? Surely dialogue instead of jail is the democratic way to go.

Be honest here, with the current posture by the central government, is there a legal way to discuss or obtain independence in Catalonia? There isn't, so how can that be democratic?

When the independeny party won in Quebec, Canadian government, opened a dialogue with them and negociated. Even after the independent referendum was a No. When the scottish independentist won, the Brittish governemtn opened a dialogue with them and negociated.


Even the spanish governement PP and PSOE opened a dialogue and negociated with ETA, the basque terrorist group. But not with representative of the catalan people.

 

[Javi]

A pass on all crimes? Of course not. Trying to put forward a political agenda using democratic means? Surely dialogue instead of jail is the democratic way to go.

Be honest here, with the current posture by the central government, is there a legal way to discuss or obtain independence in Catalonia? There isn't, so how can that be democratic?

What is and what isn't democractic is a very difficult question to answer imo. If we accept the premise that the term democratic means two things: 1.) representatives from the people (normally on three levels: county, state and federal) make laws for everybody and 2.) universal human rights are guaranteed (ius cogens at least) it then follows that putting forward a politcal agenda can only be done within the legal framework. For instance you can protest but you can't just decide to not abide the law. To conclude this line of reasoning the side that is actually undemocratic are independists.

What can be argued though is that human rights guarantee every people the right for self-determination. That sounds nice but what is the definition of people and when do they have self-determination. Being part of a multi-ethnic state clearly is not decisive given that there are very few single-ethnic states. Catalunya is not opressed since they send their fair share of delegates to Madrid too. The regional government just disagrees with the way responsibilities are shared between them and Madrid. The whole situation is not really destabilizing the region either (can still happen sure). My question would be what is it they are lacking in self-determination?

However the legal way to go about catalan independance would be to change the constitution for which you'd need some kind of majority in the national legislative. Although there are other states that fancied independence my understanding is that there is currently no chance of that happening. But it's not a decision by some dictator but the democratically elected national government.

 

[Javi]

That is what they are selling in the spanish media. None of them would flee the country if they did not put the firsts one in jail. And the funny thing is that they are accused of illegalities by spanish government that is the most corrupt in Europe.

They are accused of embezelment that is getting more and more clear recognized by Montoro that they did not spend money in the 1-O but it was private parties, and for rebellion. Rebellion it needs to be violent and over and over they repeat about the peaceful demonstrations.

Is funny like all the spaniards criticizes the attorneys, judges, media, etc...

When is about PP PSOE monarchy corruption and that the judiciary system is not independent, but suddenly, in this case is doing an excellent job.

Even the judge is prevaricating not allowing the prisioners to go to the parliament to be invested. In a few words that is what is happening:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

So just because in general the spanish judiciary system tends to be more corrupt than their western counterparts (I imagine they'd do fine in comparsion with Latin America, Africa and Asia) this specific case must be corrupted also? Even if we accept that - and in my opinion it would be a lot more convincing if you could show corruption in this specific case - what is there to conclude? That what the judge says means nothing? Everybody can do what they want? That must be a nice place to live.

Obviously politicians are going to spin things their way, is there any place left in the world where this is not happening? Yeah, they are all hipocrites. I (and I suspect everybody else) knew that already before I heard the name Puigdemont the first time.

 

[4bars]

So just because in general the spanish judiciary system tends to be more corrupt than their western counterparts (I imagine they'd do fine in comparsion with Latin America, Africa and Asia) this specific case must be corrupted also? Even if we accept that - and in my opinion it would be a lot more convincing if you could show corruption in this specific case - what is there to conclude? That what the judge says means nothing? Everybody can do what they want? That must be a nice place to live.

Obviously politicians are going to spin things their way, is there any place left in the world where this is not happening? Yeah, they are all hipocrites. I (and I suspect everybody else) knew that already before I heard the name Puigdemont the first time.

Well, when you have a judge that is prevaricating and the UN is saying that it has to respect the political rights of the prisioners i say is corrupt. When you ahve another judge that weeks later a medal is given by the PP I think that is slightly biased.

What I think:

-Those catalan politicians (and everybody) they are subjected to the spanish law and if they have to go on trial, they have to
-Preemtive prison it has to be applied in a very specific cases. Usually only applied in Spain for rapist and murderers.
-In my opinion, the judge, the attorney and all the judiciary system are perverted by the spanish main parties, the Constucional court is elected directly by the main 2 parties and the Supreme court is elected by an organism that is elected by the 2 main parties.
-In my opinion, this trial is corrupted by the politicians that seeks vengeance for everything that happened with the independentism. Also, they tried to weakened the indpendentist parties on the elections of the 21-D. And that is using the judiciary system for political gain
-After Puigdemont could not be invested, Jordi Sanchez was the one proposed. The judge forbade it prevaricating against the political rights of a preventive prisoner to be allowed to do so. when the third, Turull, was proposed, next day 5 more they were asked to go to the court, among them him, and he was jailed
- Turull and 3 more of the last 5, they were already jailed 3 months ago, they did not flee when they were liberated and they went voluntarily to court last week...and they were preemptively again.

There are several other more opinions of how the judge is perverting in lying about the violence used by the politicians to the fact that they blame them for the violence used by the police to surpress the pacific demonstrations.

But IMO, nothing of this matters. As the PP showed changing 1 law in 24 hours to make easy for the catalan companies to leave the region with the sole propose to try to damage the catalan economy and the confidence in the whole system (still damaging your region therefore your country). I believe that is a matter of political will. If the law does not allow to do a referendum in those circumstances, if you have political will to change it, you can change it. If you don't not give an option to more than 2 million that wants the independence 83% of catalans and 56% of spaniards that are in favour of a catalan referndum, then is an injust law. And an unjust law, IMO it has not to be followed.

Law it does not equals justice. All countries have laws. Laws have to serve the people, not repress. and the situation in Catalonia had to and has to be solved politically, not judiciary IMO and as this solution is not provided, we will try to find another solution outside the law because is the just thing to do.

But is not only my opinion about the independence justice in Spain

Acording to the EU, the independence in the justice system, Spain is teh 25th from 28 countries in Europe, and 97th of 144 in the world. Some latin american or asian must be above us I think

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/opinion/20150405/la-justicia-espanola-segun-europa-4075178

Another study, but because some of the countries that shows there I can't believe they are so high in the ranking:

According the World economic Forum, the percepcion of the judiciary system in Spain is number 58 (from 137 countries). Below countries like China, Trinidad and Tobago, Kenya, Botswana, Saudi Arabia...you name it

http://reports.weforum.org/pdf/gci-2017-2018-scorecard/WEF_GCI_2017_2018_Scorecard_EOSQ144.pdf

All and all, you have 2 rankings. One official, another that I don't give much credit myself, that says that Spanish judiciary system is not independent

But oh yes, against the catalan politicians, the biggest threat that "democratic" spain ever faced, will be super independent

I agree about what you say about politicians, and catalan politicans, specially not that long ago, they are the same. But the difference is that NOW, while the spanish politicians are the most corrupt in Europe (is a fact proven with data), the new catalan politicians (because the old ones had gone) at least they are willing to sacrifice their freedom (via jail, via exile) for their people.

 

[carvajal]

@4bars
I answer more or less to yesterday. In the header I would say that you speak as if you represent 80 or 90 %of the population, when 52 percent of voters voted against pro-independence parties.
The peoples of interior Catalonia and the bigger value of their vote is what allows them to govern
Thanks to the Spanish electoral system, which by the way, allows the independence parties (if I am not mistaken forbidden in Germany) have a large representation and impact on national politics.
I am surprised that you speak of fascism when a lot of people are being treated as second class citizens. The most common word is "colono"(settler) but there are also other prettier insults. Very supremacists. Catalan public tv talking about going for violence, politicians pointed. If you are Catalan and you still have some contact with your environment you have to know cases and cases of Catalans opposed to independence who are being intimidated, threatened and socially excluded. I already know a few firsthand.

Pride: Spanish character is the same of the "conquistador", the one that impose historically their culture and their government to their colonies. They have an imperialistic view and anything in Spain that is does not come from the castillian culture, is of the minor level/interest. First Spanish (castillian) then the rest. There is no respect for anything else (like in UK and France with other cultures)
That is pure demagogy. Try to create a problem. Without any sense counting the immense amount of competences that Catalonia has, including education. They study 4 hours of Spanish a week!
Corruption: For the Spanish government (and for the former catalan) that conflict had been perfect to hide all the corruption cases. PP, the party that is in the government is officially the party in Europe with more people from their party involved in judiciary cases of corruption. So as long everybody spoke about the despicable independentist catalans, the least you spoke about the corruption cases

Of course there is corruption, but it is a hypocrisy after knowing that Romeva ("Foreign Minister" of Catalonia) diverted 29 million euros for the project. Curious also that Mas began his hard line pro independence when the case of corruption of 3% began. Here is a graphic of corruption cases in Spain with the number of prosecuted

Spoiler

[/IMG]

Meanwhile, most of you don't know that Spain aproved a gag law. Lately some people had been sentenced to jail to make a bad taste joke in twitter about how aa guy got killed in the 70's that was Franco's right hand. The equivalent as someone in Germany would make a joke with Goebbels.Or for feck sake, all the parodies videos in internet with Hiltler in "the downfall"

Cassandra, the twittera of the joke about Carrero Blanco was acquitted by the supreme court (although should send her for that moustache). The same one who sent the coup leaders to jail
http://www.europapress.es/nacional/...ra-chistes-carrero-blanco-20180301124736.html

Spanish government is showing that the fascism never left. Is far from being a dictatorship, but we are closer to the Erdogan's Turkey than any european State.
you write from Vancouver or from Moscow. That is one of the mythical phrases of the bots on Twitter.
With the catalan politicians situation they are perverting the terminology and the meaning of the words to put it by force in the definition of the rebellion. It has to be violent and the catalan politicians had like a mantra be peaceful all the time. It is complicated to explain in english because if it is complicated to speak in spanish the perversion of the language, imagine translating it.
In the agenda of Jové, which seized the Civil Guard, as well as emails show that they reckoned an escalation of violence after the referendum.
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/03/17/5aac43c6268e3e167a8b45c7.html and violence coming from CRD and CUP, and as you know well where Anna Gabriel escaped.
After the last elections, we could not invest Puigdemont as president, because they would not allow it (though spanish law says they should allow it), after Puigdemont they asked to invest president, one of the politicians that are in prision, but the judge prevaricated and did not allow it against the spanish law that should allow the person to get out of the prision for the day that is declared president. When a third guy was about to be invested president, they asked him and 4 more to go to court next day and they put them in jail. Basically, catalans voted and from Madrid don't allow anyone that is not from their taste to be president. That is their democracy

That's the problem. You do not understand that the state is not going to allow the president to be a golpista. Neither Puigdemont, nor Junqueras, nor Sánchez -one of the main protagonists-, nor Turull, who diverted money, and curiously a week before the referendum passed all his goods to his wife. You have Elsa Artadi free of legal problems, but you are not interested. You are interested in stoking the fire.

But the latest and that impregnated the 2 former, is that we saw that we can't live in this kind of country, with a subjacent fascism. That the nazi salute and the fascist songs are sang freely on the streets while the ones that criticize the government and the king are imprisoned. WHen the royal family and the politicians are the most corrupt in europe and nothing happen to them. When the main companies in Spain are ruled by the families that ruled with Franco. Where the judiciary, military and police structure and system still the same back then. When last week the 3 main parties refused to pass a law that lift the veto to condemn the fascist members. 0 condemned from that regime

Like the silliness of Castilla, I'm sure that the Catalans are taking advantage of ignorance and stereotypes to promote such nonsense. Fortunately many people come to Spain so that this demagogic message does not get anywhere.
Foreigners see spain as the party, good weather, food and nice people. And it is. But in terms of politics is a facade that hides a very problematic state. And Catalonia, as always historically, always is there spearheading changes, for good or bad reasons, because we are the pulse of that country always. And if something is rotten, we smell it first
Of course, especially the CUP that would be happy turning Catalonia into Cuba and Arnaldo Otegi, who dares to say that the Spaniards are violent.
Take a look at the indices of democracy and freedom of expression in the world.
2011 minister of education saying that they need to make catalan kids more spanish, like speaking catalan is not being spanish. 100% of catalans speak spanish. not even 60% speak catalan (basque and galician even worse)
That's a lie. In Galicia everyone understands Galician. Older people speak it and nobody has oppressed them, and my son has 5 subjects in Galician.
My nephew spent his first years in Euskadi, and spent years learning castellano on his return because he studied completely in Basque.

 

[4bars]

What is and what isn't democractic is a very difficult question to answer imo. If we accept the premise that the term democratic means two things: 1.) representatives from the people (normally on three levels: county, state and federal) make laws for everybody and 2.) universal human rights are guaranteed (ius cogens at least) it then follows that putting forward a politcal agenda can only be done within the legal framework. For instance you can protest but you can't just decide to not abide the law. To conclude this line of reasoning the side that is actually undemocratic are independists.

What can be argued though is that human rights guarantee every people the right for self-determination. That sounds nice but what is the definition of people and when do they have self-determination. Being part of a multi-ethnic state clearly is not decisive given that there are very few single-ethnic states. Catalunya is not opressed since they send their fair share of delegates to Madrid too. The regional government just disagrees with the way responsibilities are shared between them and Madrid. The whole situation is not really destabilizing the region either (can still happen sure). My question would be what is it they are lacking in self-determination?

However the legal way to go about catalan independance would be to change the constitution for which you'd need some kind of majority in the national legislative. Although there are other states that fancied independence my understanding is that there is currently no chance of that happening. But it's not a decision by some dictator but the democratically elected national government.

Never a catalan president, 25% of the population and the presence of catalans in the spanish government is practically inexistant. We are not opressed becuase you say so? culturally speaking we feel like that, and I don't thing you are no one to enter in that dispute. Spanish government only put rocks in our way in our developement in many ways, but is normal that this does not reach the national media

What we lack, Control in our own infrastructures (ports, airports, etc...) control in our own taxes and how to implementing them (today the spanish government abolished a law that allowed immigrants to free access to the healthcare, last year, to the banks to pay for special taxes, to the energy companies not able to cut the energy to people that can't pay for it, etc...), control in our education system (We officially do, but not the facto)

You ask for a national majority. The Estatut was approved by a legal catalan referendum, by the catalan parliament and by the spanish parliament. PP started to judicialize the Estatut, instead of accepting what YOUR majority in the NATIONAL parliament voted, changing any law that could go against the old 1978 constitution, they decided to go through the judiciary system.

So much for the majority that you ask for. And I remember you, that the Estatut started all this shitshow. If the Estatut would not be abolished, nothing of that would be happening. And again, we are in the political will of the spanish politicians. 0. We are a colony for them

 

[carvajal]

Never a catalan president, 25% of the population and the presence of catalans in the spanish government is practically inexistant. We are not opressed becuase you say so? culturally speaking we feel like that, and I don't thing you are no one to enter in that dispute. Spanish government only put rocks in our way in our developement in many ways, but is normal that this does not reach the national media

What we lack, Control in our own infrastructures (ports, airports, etc...) control in our own taxes and how to implementing them (today the spanish government abolished a law that allowed immigrants to free access to the healthcare, last year, to the banks to pay for special taxes, to the energy companies not able to cut the energy to people that can't pay for it, etc...), control in our education system (We officially do, but not the facto)

You ask for a national majority. The Estatut was approved by a legal catalan referendum, by the catalan parliament and by the spanish parliament. PP started to judicialize the Estatut, instead of accepting what YOUR majority in the NATIONAL parliament voted, changing any law that could go against the old 1978 constitution, they decided to go through the judiciary system.

So much for the majority that you ask for. And I remember you, that the Estatut started all this shitshow. If the Estatut would not be abolished, nothing of that would be happening. And again, we are in the political will of the spanish politicians. 0. We are a colony for them

a good brief of the Catalan independentism

 

[4bars]

I answer more or less to yesterday. In the header I would say that you speak as if you represent 80 or 90 %of the population, when 52 percent of voters voted against pro-independence parties.

You are lying. Comuns is not anti-independentist and you know it. It was 47,5% Yes vs 45% No and the restundefiened. And all an all, what is entirely TRUE is that more than 50% of the votes was in favour of a referendum. THAT is the only thing we are asking, not only independentist.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-42435684

The peoples of interior Catalonia and the bigger value of their vote is what allows them to govern.
Thanks to the Spanish electoral system, which by the way, allows the independence parties (if I am not mistaken forbidden in Germany) have a large representation and impact on national politics.
I am surprised that you speak of fascism when a lot of people are being treated as second class citizens. The most common word is "colono"(settler) but there are also other prettier insults. Very supremacists. Catalan public tv talking about going for violence, politicians pointed. If you are Catalan and you still have some contact with your environment you have to know cases and cases of Catalans opposed to independence who are being intimidated, threatened and socially excluded. I already know a few firsthand.

At least, if you acuse the catalan TV to go for violence, you could put a link? because the trademark is quite the oposite. Don't spread false lies. The only ones hitting here and there, with fascist salutes, nazi flags, hitting a sikh (calling him arab, so even more ignorant) had been seen in unionist demostrations and I put lots of pictures and videos in this thread.

The threads and intimidations had been in the other side and there is tones of videos. Now with Tabarnia videos with knives. I am not saying that only me. Aftonbladet, Die Spiegel, New York Times...All of them saying that is a pacific movement

But of course, not the spanish media

Pride: Spanish character is the same of the "conquistador", the one that impose historically their culture and their government to their colonies. They have an imperialistic view and anything in Spain that is does not come from the castillian culture, is of the minor level/interest. First Spanish (castillian) then the rest. There is no respect for anything else (like in UK and France with other cultures)
That is pure demagogy. Try to create a problem. Without any sense counting the immense amount of competences that Catalonia has, including education. They study 4 hours of Spanish a week!

Not only only me thinks like that:

https://1dex.ch/2018/01/catalogne-lignominie-marche/

And we do 4 hours of catalan a week and I think 3 in english? more hours of school than any other region

We are 9th region of 17th in spanish. We are at the same level of english more or less. and we speak catalan too. What matters? the hours or ther results?

100% catalans knows Spanish, barely 60% knows catalan. So in your opinion. Which language should be reinforced? come on you have it! You are intelligent enough.




Corruption: For the Spanish government (and for the former catalan) that conflict had been perfect to hide all the corruption cases. PP, the party that is in the government is officially the party in Europe with more people from their party involved in judiciary cases of corruption. So as long everybody spoke about the despicable independentist catalans, the least you spoke about the corruption cases

Of course there is corruption, but it is a hypocrisy after knowing that Romeva ("Foreign Minister" of Catalonia) diverted 29 million euros for the project. Curious also that Mas began his hard line pro independence when the case of corruption of 3% began. Here is a graphic of corruption cases in Spain with the number of prosecuted

How diverted? proof? link? not conjecture?

Waiting

And ll of the 3% are not in the government and some in trail. What about Spain? we still have M.Rajoy (who must be) president and the likes. At least in catalonia and Basque country they paid a political price

Spoiler

[/IMG]

Meanwhile, most of you don't know that Spain aproved a gag law. Lately some people had been sentenced to jail to make a bad taste joke in twitter about how aa guy got killed in the 70's that was Franco's right hand. The equivalent as someone in Germany would make a joke with Goebbels.Or for feck sake, all the parodies videos in internet with Hiltler in "the downfall"

Cassandra, the twittera of the joke about Carrero Blanco was acquitted by the supreme court (although should send her for that moustache). The same one who sent the coup leaders to jail
http://www.europapress.es/nacional/...ra-chistes-carrero-blanco-20180301124736.html

But she was apprehended at home, like many others. And she was condemned. And auto censures begins because of fear. Nothing about the musicians, art...nothing? Defending the gag law. Oh my god...

Spanish government is showing that the fascism never left. Is far from being a dictatorship, but we are closer to the Erdogan's Turkey than any european State.
you write from Vancouver or from Moscow. That is one of the mythical phrases of the bots on Twitter.

Oh, so now is russia. A sentence, said by Ghandi, or by Hitler, does not make it less true because who says it and how wrongly said other things in the past. And I write from wherever I want.

With the catalan politicians situation they are perverting the terminology and the meaning of the words to put it by force in the definition of the rebellion. It has to be violent and the catalan politicians had like a mantra be peaceful all the time. It is complicated to explain in english because if it is complicated to speak in spanish the perversion of the language, imagine translating it.
In the agenda of Jové, which seized the Civil Guard, as well as emails show that they reckoned an escalation of violence after the referendum.

Proof, link? I am genuenly interested. Not that you are not right. THat violence never existed. The opposite, over and over they said, be calm, be peaceful. Not the same in the unionist and fascist salutes unionists march


http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/03/17/5aac43c6268e3e167a8b45c7.html and violence coming from CRD and CUP, and as you know well where Anna Gabriel escaped.

Did you even read the link? the link says that in the peaceful protest they were concern of the possibility of some violence to arise.

Not that they would provoke violence. LOL

Thanks for proving that even the right wing media (please, be kind as least unbiased media as I am trying to do myself all the time) said that the protests were peaceful and that the catalan politicians were concerned of possible violence arising (what it would not be weird after the policeman beating in the 1-O)


After the last elections, we could not invest Puigdemont as president, because they would not allow it (though spanish law says they should allow it), after Puigdemont they asked to invest president, one of the politicians that are in prision, but the judge prevaricated and did not allow it against the spanish law that should allow the person to get out of the prision for the day that is declared president. When a third guy was about to be invested president, they asked him and 4 more to go to court next day and they put them in jail. Basically, catalans voted and from Madrid don't allow anyone that is not from their taste to be president. That is their democracy

That's the problem. You do not understand that the state is not going to allow the president to be a golpista. Neither Puigdemont, nor Junqueras, nor Sánchez -one of the main protagonists-, nor Turull, who diverted money, and curiously a week before the referendum passed all his goods to his wife. You have Elsa Artadi free of legal problems, but you are not interested. You are interested in stoking the fire.

If it is a "golpista" has to be said by the judge, not the state. That if the judiciary system is as independent as you claimed pages before. If they fill their mouth with the law law law...the law says that Sanchez has the right to go to the parlament to be invested. PERIOD. Or the law only applies to the benefit of the ones in power? oh my god the blasphemy I said!

We are interested in have the government that we voted. You know, democracy and all that...

Diverted money....Iran...Venezuela...Like Hernando. Proof links. And at least I will learn something that I am sure my sources hides to me. We are not perfect, and I know that there is dirty business everywhere. But proofs please.

But the latest and that impregnated the 2 former, is that we saw that we can't live in this kind of country, with a subjacent fascism. That the nazi salute and the fascist songs are sang freely on the streets while the ones that criticize the government and the king are imprisoned. WHen the royal family and the politicians are the most corrupt in europe and nothing happen to them. When the main companies in Spain are ruled by the families that ruled with Franco. Where the judiciary, military and police structure and system still the same back then. When last week the 3 main parties refused to pass a law that lift the veto to condemn the fascist members. 0 condemned from that regime

Like the silliness of Castilla, I'm sure that the Catalans are taking advantage of ignorance and stereotypes to promote such nonsense. Fortunately many people come to Spain so that this demagogic message does not get anywhere.

Ignorance does not free of your bad actions. Is all there for the people to see in pictures, videos,etc...Is not a few people. Are a lot of them, even if they don't do the fascist salute there are plenty. The ones they do it is just the most exalted manifestation. The tip of the iceberg. But the most important. THE GOVERNMENT allows it. Try to do a nazi salute in Germany, some of the real madrid fans (70 of them) had more than a surprise with the german police and going to prison for a day or more, when they visited in Champions league

https://elpais.com/diario/1998/03/05/deportes/889052404_850215.html

And you know why? because they are used to Spain, where the old fascist regime never disappeared and is allowed broad light day.

YOu will not win this argument mate. Franco's heirs still in power in all the economic, political, military, judiciary and police structures


Foreigners see spain as the party, good weather, food and nice people. And it is. But in terms of politics is a facade that hides a very problematic state. And Catalonia, as always historically, always is there spearheading changes, for good or bad reasons, because we are the pulse of that country always. And if something is rotten, we smell it first
Of course, especially the CUP that would be happy turning Catalonia into Cuba and Arnaldo Otegi, who dares to say that the Spaniards are violent.
Take a look at the indices of democracy and freedom of expression in the world.

Oh yes!! The Cuba argument! I love it. Venezuela and Iran like Hernando style. And of course Arnaldo Otegi. Put some terrorism there to link the peaceful catalan independentism movement stir it well and voila! you have a turdlie. What else what else? school me


2011 minister of education saying that they need to make catalan kids more spanish, like speaking catalan is not being spanish. 100% of catalans speak spanish. not even 60% speak catalan (basque and galician even worse)
That's a lie. In Galicia everyone understands Galician. Older people speak it and nobody has oppressed them, and my son has 5 subjects in Galician.
My nephew spent his first years in Euskadi, and spent years learning castellano on his return because he studied completely in Basque.

Is the only think I will appologize. Even at the moment I was writing I regreted about galician. Simply I don't know enough of the galician language situation. Though I have my opinion why it survived better than the basque (related with no immigration at all, having portugal at the side like a brotherlanguage), I will leave other regional languages aside. Simply I don't dear to give as much as strong opinions of a region that I never lived, and I can't understand as much as a local and of course, I would trust more if a local tells me their piece, than mine

 

[4bars]

a good brief of the Catalan independentism

Just pick a sentence of a whole parraf and take it as a whole. A good brief, of not having idea what is going on

 

[carvajal]

At least, if you acuse the catalan TV to go for violence, you could put a link? because the trademark is quite the oposite. Don't spread false lies. The only ones hitting here and there, with fascist salutes, nazi flags, hitting a sikh (calling him arab, so even more ignorant) had been seen in unionist demostrations and I put lots of pictures and videos in this thread.
https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180325/colaborador-tv3-jair-dominguez-avisa-habra-muertos-proces-6715013
http://www.cope.es/noticias/herrera-cope/tv3-difunde-informacion-personal-del-juez-llarena-mujer_176571
And we do 4 hours of catalan a week and I think 3 in english? more hours of school than any other region
Check it again, it´s 4 hours of spanish in a week.
Proof, link? I am genuenly interested. Not that you are not right. THat violence never existed. The opposite, over and over they said, be calm, be peaceful. Not the same in the unionist and fascist salutes unionists march
Honestly, without bitterness
I do not know if you're kidding me or you do not know everything from where you live. I send you a summary
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/03/22/actualidad/1521730867_550486.html
and some links about the violence promoted for several groups, the political knowledge of the violence that was coming (and of course mossos spying, lying and not doing anything http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2018/02/26/5a936c9ce5fdea4e3d8b45aa.html )
http://www.europapress.es/nacional/...-movilizaciones-revueltas-20180326144639.html
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/03/17/5aac43c6268e3e167a8b45c7.html
Evidence of embezzlement:
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/03/18/5aad6e1e46163fea4b8b45a4.html
https://elpais.com/ccaa/2018/03/22/catalunya/1521732259_377063.html
If it is a "golpista" has to be said by the judge, not the state. That if the judiciary system is as independent as you claimed pages before. If they fill their mouth with the law law law...the law says that Sanchez has the right to go to the parlament to be invested. PERIOD. Or the law only applies to the benefit of the ones in power? oh my god the blasphemy I said!

We are interested in have the government that we voted. You know, democracy and all that...Think what you want, but Artadi is still waiting, but that would mean normalizing things. But that's part of the plan, as Torrent, president of the Parlament said a few days ago, "no judge can judge the president of the Catalans." A man who in theory represents all political parties.

You ask for democracy but you do not admit what they have done to be prosecuted

Ignorance does not free of your bad actions. Is all there for the people to see in pictures, videos,etc...Is not a few people. Are a lot of them, even if they don't do the fascist salute there are plenty. The ones they do it is just the most exalted manifestation. The tip of the iceberg. But the most important. THE GOVERNMENT allows it. Try to do a nazi salute in Germany, some of the real madrid fans (70 of them) had more than a surprise with the german police and going to prison for a day or more, when they visited in Champions league

https://elpais.com/diario/1998/03/05/deportes/889052404_850215.html

And you know why? because they are used to Spain, where the old fascist regime never disappeared and is allowed broad light day.

YOu will not win this argument mate. Franco's heirs still in power in all the economic, political, military, judiciary and police structures
So, to prove your point you bring a link related to football ultras from 20 years ago?

Oh yes!! The Cuba argument! I love it. Venezuela and Iran like Hernando style. And of course Arnaldo Otegi. Put some terrorism there to link the peaceful catalan independentism movement stir it well and voila! you have a turdlie. What else what else? school me

Just pick a sentence of a whole parraf and take it as a whole. A good brief, of not having idea what is going on

Are you sure I'm the one not having idea? because actually I follow the subject with enough attention, as well as good testimonies. It really matters the links about the crimes of all the participants or how well prepared this plot was, and on groups that are doing the kale borroka in Catalonia ?.
It doesn´t matter, you'll use democracy and fascism, the 2 wildcards

 

[4bars]

At least, if you acuse the catalan TV to go for violence, you could put a link? because the trademark is quite the oposite. Don't spread false lies. The only ones hitting here and there, with fascist salutes, nazi flags, hitting a sikh (calling him arab, so even more ignorant) had been seen in unionist demostrations and I put lots of pictures and videos in this thread.
https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180325/colaborador-tv3-jair-dominguez-avisa-habra-muertos-proces-6715013
http://www.cope.es/noticias/herrera-cope/tv3-difunde-informacion-personal-del-juez-llarena-mujer_176571

The first link. First of all don't read only the Title as many people do.

Is not TV3, is in instagram. So Catalan TV did not say that. Then He says Literally " This will end with deads, And is sad because we are peaceful. And they brought us to the limit and we discovered that to reach the independence is not enough with peace but will be blood and fire."

And he does not talk about blood and fire to go kill the others but that it will be martyrs among the catalans like a sacrifice. Quite different than the "a por ellos"

Nothing different that I have been saying here and anywhere. That we will not reach the independence, because catalan people will not do that.

Still, No catalan TV, Is like blaming men with beard because a man with beard said that. linking and linking and linking...and you get the result. That is cheating

Instagram, and not encoraging people to violence. but nice try

Second link

What they did in the TV show in the catalan TV is despicable. Discovering personal data, from the judge and family, specially with the situation that he is in is terrible. Still, the radio show, the ultracatholic right wing radio station, says that the program is asking for people to go there and attack them. And no, in any case they did that. Still very despicable thing to do.

I don't see any encouraging from the Catalan TV. And in the net, in the street...sure it will be a very isolated events. But after millions on the streets several times, hundreds of thousands dozens of times, thousands hundreds of times in the streets, being hitted...is to be expected way more.

In the other side, most demonstration about the unionist you find people with knives, or hitting people, or nazi/fascist simbology, etc... And the Spanish TV says nothing.

Well, in some spanish station like 13TV saying literally:

"We have to shoot all the one that ones a referendum"

https://www.elperiodico.com/es/poli...-partidarios-referendum-independencia-5698742

" Please Kim Jong Un send a nuclear missile to Catalonia, we dare you, blow them up. We all win

https://www.elplural.com/comunicaci...corea-del-norte-una-bomba-nuclear-en-cataluna

And I don't care that is not public. They are on air, on public, and I don't see them on trial like the musicians or art galleries saying things way worse. And those are just some of the examples. (there are more inside the article)

Anything that is said and done from the independentists is scrutinized 1000 times more than the unionist ones. And doing way more demonstrations, you can get way more proofs of hate in quantity and "quality". When the first had been beaten , repressed, their leaders in prison or exiled and the others have all the freedom they want. Not fair, do you think?




And we do 4 hours of catalan a week and I think 3 in english? more hours of school than any other region
Check it again, it´s 4 hours of spanish in a week. And 4 in catalan in a week. I repeat 100% knows spanish. 60% catalan. dozens of tv stations vs 1, dozens of written press vs a few, radio, etc...Which is the language that have to be reinforced. Please answer me the question if you dare
Proof, link? I am genuenly interested. Not that you are not right. THat violence never existed. The opposite, over and over they said, be calm, be peaceful. Not the same in the unionist and fascist salutes unionists march
Honestly, without bitterness
I do not know if you're kidding me or you do not know everything from where you live. I send you a summary
https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2018/03/22/actualidad/1521730867_550486.html

Please, indicate WHERE the catalan government says that they will escalate the situation to go for violence but QUITE the opposite when they decided to stop the pressure because the spanish government menaced the catalan politicians that they were about to use firearms

Quite the oposite, stop because you don't want violence than promoting

Still waiting links me as well without bitterness. And please, read yours first, not only the title


and some links about the violence promoted for several groups, the political knowledge of the violence that was coming (and of course mossos spying, lying and not doing anything http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2018/02/26/5a936c9ce5fdea4e3d8b45aa.html )

Spying in the territory that they have to protect (at least they dont put gps signals in foreign countries like in Puigdemont cars)? Closing more ballot boxes than the spanish police with 0 injureds?

Still, WHERE in the link there is violence promotion

Not to mention, el mundo (the ones of the conspiracy that the terrorist attack was ETA and not ALqqaeda more than a year after) and VOX


http://www.europapress.es/nacional/...-movilizaciones-revueltas-20180326144639.html

I don't know how this has to be with politicians, but lets see the most terrible courses that this organizations made by the people without political interference.

"Cómo cuidarse en tiempos de revuelta", (How to take care of yourself in uprsising times)
"Estrategia no violenta de liberación en 10 pasos" (Non violence strategy of free yourself in 10 steps)
"Cómo fortalecer movilizaciones" (How strengthen mobilizations)

Oh my god!! SOOOOOO violent.

Basically, if you ever been in any G-8 demonstration or the likes. Little courses/tips like if a police fecking beats you, lay with your right side on the ground, because you only have 1 liver but 2 kidneys if they hit the vital organs. And the likes. How to survive better in demonstrations and protect yourself. But well, If NON VIOLENCE in the title for you equals VIOLENCE. I don't know whatelse to say. Thank you to proof my point?

Still putting random links trying to proof that catalan politicians asked for violence, without politicians in the article and No violence in the article....


http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/03/17/5aac43c6268e3e167a8b45c7.html

Comented before. I will copy paste what I answered before (you repeat yourself you wont pretend I will make any effort):

"
Did you even read the link? the link says that in the peaceful protest they were concern of the possibility of some violence to arise.

Not that they would provoke violence. LOL

Thanks for proving that even the right wing media (please, be kind as least unbiased media as I am trying to do myself all the time) said that the protests were peaceful and that the catalan politicians were concerned of possible violence arising (what it would not be weird after the policeman beating in the 1-O)"

Evidence of embezzlement:
http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2018/03/18/5aad6e1e46163fea4b8b45a4.html
https://elpais.com/ccaa/2018/03/22/catalunya/1521732259_377063.html

Aaaaaaand the spanish government and Montoro says to the judge that the Catalan government did not spend a CENT in the referendum

http://www.europapress.es/nacional/...forme-detenida-septiembre-20180226155601.html

http://www.elmundo.es/espana/2017/08/31/59a7edd822601d50538b45c3.html

Something else to say

Anyway, I would not discard that something would happen. Would be very minor because they are not stupid and ALL and ALL is what the people of Catalonia asked to do.

It would be way cheaper leave to do the referendum than bringing all the comando Piolin, don't you think?

If it is a "golpista" has to be said by the judge, not the state. That if the judiciary system is as independent as you claimed pages before. If they fill their mouth with the law law law...the law says that Sanchez has the right to go to the parlament to be invested. PERIOD. Or the law only applies to the benefit of the ones in power? oh my god the blasphemy I said!

We are interested in have the government that we voted. You know, democracy and all that...Think what you want, but Artadi is still waiting, but that would mean normalizing things. But that's part of the plan, as Torrent, president of the Parlament said a few days ago, "no judge can judge the president of the Catalans." A man who in theory represents all political parties.

You ask for democracy but you do not admit what they have done to be prosecuted

Oh, so you condemn them before the trial. Well, I abolutely know that they forced the spanish law, but I don't agree with that law, like many others that I am sure you think are unfair like the prescription of fiscal corruption after 5 years, and many others.

I repeat, for anooooother time. Law is not justice (specially spanish justice), and when is not just I find correct to broke the law. If catalan society broke the law (because more than 2 million vote in an illegal referendum) is because there is no politcial will to change the law. and when the law does not serve the purpose is not just

Ignorance does not free of your bad actions. Is all there for the people to see in pictures, videos,etc...Is not a few people. Are a lot of them, even if they don't do the fascist salute there are plenty. The ones they do it is just the most exalted manifestation. The tip of the iceberg. But the most important. THE GOVERNMENT allows it. Try to do a nazi salute in Germany, some of the real madrid fans (70 of them) had more than a surprise with the german police and going to prison for a day or more, when they visited in Champions league

https://elpais.com/diario/1998/03/05/deportes/889052404_850215.html

And you know why? because they are used to Spain, where the old fascist regime never disappeared and is allowed broad light day.

YOu will not win this argument mate. Franco's heirs still in power in all the economic, political, military, judiciary and police structures
So, to prove your point you bring a link related to football ultras from 20 years ago?

No, I prove my point putting a link of Fascist spanish people that they are free to do the nazi salute in a emblematic and publically visual like the Bernabeu, but when they are outside spain, they are not allowed, because only in Spain can be even cheered in doing it. And is a fecking good point IMO!

Oh yes!! The Cuba argument! I love it. Venezuela and Iran like Hernando style. And of course Arnaldo Otegi. Put some terrorism there to link the peaceful catalan independentism movement stir it well and voila! you have a turdlie. What else what else? school me


Are you sure I'm the one not having idea? because actually I follow the subject with enough attention, as well as good testimonies. It really matters the links about the crimes of all the participants or how well prepared this plot was, and on groups that are doing the kale borroka in Catalonia ?.
It doesn´t matter, you'll use democracy and fascism, the 2 wildcards


Lol, you follow and you put a basque name (Kale Borroka) of an action with Catalonia

Always misleading, always trying to link Catalonia, with basques, basques with terrorism and voila. Syllogisms rules eh?

I am sorry, but of course you can be very informed and you can even know more than a local. But non local very informed, can not know more than a local very informed. And me, I am, since I was brainwashed as a kid and I developed my criticism going abroad. In catalonia we have both media, the spanish and the catalan. You only have one. In catalonia we have both kind of people (and more ranges of greys), unionist and separatist. In Spain, all in certain degrees would like catalonia to remain (forcibly or negotiating)

And no, I will not use the card democracy, I belive there are other forms of organization. But the wildcard of fascism? Of course I will use it! Because is true. You can't say to an American "It doesn't matter you'll use the Trump Card (when speaking why they will feck themselves)", because Trump exist! and they are fecked!. The same with fascism. It exist, and is the main problem for Spain, not only catalonia. With or without catalonia, Spain is fecked with the underlying (and not so much underlying) fascism


Hey, I like to chat with you. I like to polish my arguments and counterarguments

I pretend to be right, but I know I am not 100% because nobody is. And I don't pretend independentist are 100% right and 100% angels. Is the game of the cat and the rat. But for me is a matter of comparisons and IMO, Spain is doing it worse in many ways. Some of them dangerous. And unfortunately, this is a reflection of the society, if they keep voting the same that they behave (and they are actually the heirs) like fascists and when they fecked them over and over and they don't fight for their rights (like the catalans rightly or wrongly we do), is that the society is sort of fascist and sort of dumb.

 

[Vato]

Needs more colors.

 

[carvajal]

the kale borroka is exactly that. It begins with threats to citizens, politicians and judges and in this case there are already important opinions.
I understand that despite the competences there are people who sympathize with the self-determination , the Europe of the 500 regions.
The problem is that you create a well-programmed event and sell it as oppression, trying a campaign to discredit Spain and gain support.
A plan orchestrated with many lies and fake news.
I'm not going to convince you, but I'll explain each one of those lies well, even if I have to spend a week writing the post. Then each one will draw their own conclusions

 

[4bars]

Needs more colors.

You ruined! It was fun make carvajal part of barcelona colours

 

[NoLogo]

I really don't like this rise of nationalism in Europe. I was hoping that within my life time we would see a United States of Europe but now it seems that not only most countries want out again but also every god damn province wants independence. And don't give me the "but historically" this is about moving forward to something new and not moving back to how things were in the past. But hey feck it let's all do our own thing again.

/rant

 

[4bars]

the kale borroka is exactly that. It begins with threats to citizens, politicians and judges and in this case there are already important opinions.
I understand that despite the competences there are people who sympathize with the self-determination , the Europe of the 500 regions.
The problem is that you create a well-programmed event and sell it as oppression, trying a campaign to discredit Spain and gain support.
A plan orchestrated with many lies and fake news.
I'm not going to convince you, but I'll explain each one of those lies well, even if I have to spend a week writing the post. Then each one will draw their own conclusions

Yeah right, tell that to a basque and he will laugh at your face

"Kale o kalea" (if you ever walked around the streets and check the signs) it means street and "borroka" means fight. Basically, Kale borroka means street fight. And it means all that sorrounds a protest that involve, throwing stones, barrikades and burning containers and it was infamously used for the pro-eta yougsters in the streets of the basque country. No threatening citizens , politicians and judges and all the BS that you said "exactly that"

Know your terms, and stop to read the spanish media that always try to link terrorism with catalonia independentism through syllogisms. In catalonia this practise had not been done.

And yes, is oppression to my culture, to self government and now, to my government. Spain discredited themselve the 1st of October with their police and now with political prisoners, they don't need our help. Fake news? You have all the machinery and all the money of an state? and catalonia with the accounts and government intervined we are the ones that could generate fake news? seriously? Mighty and powerful catalonia against poor and weak spain? in which world do you live? serioulsy... Stop buying Dastis pathetic narrative.

Yes, keep explaining lies about for example kale borroka. You are doing well mate.

 

[4bars]

I really don't like this rise of nationalism in Europe. I was hoping that within my life time we would see a United States of Europe but now it seems that not only most countries want out again but also every god damn province wants independence. And don't give me the "but historically" this is about moving forward to something new and not moving back to how things were in the past. But hey feck it let's all do our own thing again.

/rant

Catalonia has no problem to belong to Europe, and be a federate state of it. There are states in united states smaller and with less population than Catalonia. For history, for culture, for economy, geographical size, population size, catalonia has as much right (if those would be the only requirements) than Greece, netherlands, belgium, luxembourg, austria, denmark, and more. We would not be the poorest, the smallest, the least diverse, etc...

Why we can't be in our own right a state of europe, and why the others yes? Lets divide belgium. Half in france, as they are small and that part speak french, and the other part to netherlands as they speak flemish. Lets anex austria to germany (sounds familiar) and etc...

Is as simple as that. If a group of people wants to have their own project (and I always said does not matter the size, even if it is ridiculous), they should be allowed, but facing the consequences as well.

 

[4bars]

And I will add...The past was 100-300 years ago, with the brittish, french and spanish empires forming just 60 countries in the world just 100 years ago. 30 years ago it was about 100 (?). Now we are +200. The world divides not conjoins, practically every year there is 1 or more countries that gets the independence. And that is because there is less colonial powers that surpress the national identity of the territories. and others, in the colonies, find their own natural/historical identity through religion, tribal, race, etc...not like the borders that the empires designed.

Be and let be. before, when a society wanted to decide, was repressed. Spain is trying the same but they can because the world is observing and they are limited by the european union and UN watch. today, is more likely that societies can choose their future, decentralization is more possible because is more effective and only the countries that will respect the differences within, will be able to survive as a conglomerate or they will have to divide

 

[Rajma]

I really don't like this rise of nationalism in Europe. I was hoping that within my life time we would see a United States of Europe but now it seems that not only most countries want out again but also every god damn province wants independence. And don't give me the "but historically" this is about moving forward to something new and not moving back to how things were in the past. But hey feck it let's all do our own thing again.

/rant

Completely agree with you mate.

 

[barros]

Anybody from the Basque region to join the conversation? We Portuguese use to say “from Spain nor good winds nor good marriages “ something like that

 

[barros]

I really don't like this rise of nationalism in Europe. I was hoping that within my life time we would see a United States of Europe but now it seems that not only most countries want out again but also every god damn province wants independence. And don't give me the "but historically" this is about moving forward to something new and not moving back to how things were in the past. But hey feck it let's all do our own thing again.

/rant

About the culture of each region? The only way we keep the culture is keeping the language in first place and actually have borders because countries without borders aren’t countries anymore and if for example a few millions of people move from one region to other then we have a cultural shock. We can’t use USA as an example of their federal system because the only people here with a local culture was killed and the survivors had to live in “reservations”. Europe as an economic bloc - great idea, the rest not great at all look Greece treated like shit from the same countries who helped them to get in depression.

 

[Cheesy]

I really don't like this rise of nationalism in Europe. I was hoping that within my life time we would see a United States of Europe but now it seems that not only most countries want out again but also every god damn province wants independence. And don't give me the "but historically" this is about moving forward to something new and not moving back to how things were in the past. But hey feck it let's all do our own thing again.

/rant

States can be closely united whilst also maintaining political independence. Catalan nationalism may not be perfect but like Scottish nationalism it's mostly civil and very different in nature from the flag-waving far-right rhetoric of Trump/Farage and co.

 

[4bars]

The excuse "I don't like nationalism" is really easy for the ones that they don't feel their culture (hey, some people care of this things, I think is legit) threatened as theirs is the predominant culture. Is funny though, how they don't like a chunk of their country go away. Basically because they are as nationalistic as the regional ones and they feel threaten they will lose a part of the territory (and history and culture with it).

Is nice to be all united. And really, is great. Like marriage and friends...if I don't like my wife/husband, don't like what I am doing with my friends. I will simply go. Then we can always have other arrangements like FWB or other activities with friends... That is how europe should be. Everybody on their own home and agree with what we can agree.

But if your wife/husband don't like you, you can't force them to stay together because "I love you" and you have the opinion that you are better together. Life should not work like this

 

[jackofalltrades]

States can be closely united whilst also maintaining political independence. Catalan nationalism may not be perfect but like Scottish nationalism it's mostly civil and very different in nature from the flag-waving far-right rhetoric of Trump/Farage and co.

I think it's more complicated than that. A common way of referring to economic migrants used to be and maybe still, is "Xarnego" - dog. Even Gabriel Rufian, at present a deputy for ERC in Madrid, decries the term in response, I think, to it being used by Marta Ferrusola. "Xarnegos al paradon"- shoot the dogs, is obviously worse. Marta Ferrusola, the wife of ex-president Pujol, can justifiably be called a racist.

 

[4bars]

I think it's more complicated than that. A common way of referring to economic migrants used to be and maybe still, is "Xarnego" - dog. Even Gabriel Rufian, at present a deputy for ERC in Madrid, decries the term in response, I think, to it being used by Marta Ferrusola. "Xarnegos al paradon"- shoot the dogs, is obviously worse. Marta Ferrusola, the wife of ex-president Pujol, can justifiably be called a racist.

That is happening when the unionist lies and lies and lies. Marta Ferrusola never said that. Prove it at least

Second lie. Xarnego does not mean dog. in spanish might be a similar word, but the origins in catalonia more than 500 ago, is the one of mixt marriage from the catalano french couples. Then, in the XX century took a character of an insult

Xarnegos is a disgusting word to describe spanish immigrant in catalonia, and fortunately, since the 90's is less and less used, basically because we mixed so much, that lots are "xarnegos" or have friends that are "xarnegos. This does not mean that a stupid one will use it once in a while. But catalonia had 10 years ago a Andalusian president while the other way arround will never happen, nor in spain if that catalan is not obviously anti catalanist culture. Catalonia received lots of immigration over the world and had breing us many good things, but it will be always tensions that can derive in disgusting events

last year it was a 160.000 people demonstration asking more refugees. and we learnt that is stupid to find a "true catalan" we all are. And independentism, even if there is a majority of catalano speakers or catalan culture oriented, is adding more and more others that are not like of a cataln speaker background. And is how it has to be as it is what catalonia is nowadays

 

[carvajal]

I think Ferrusola didn´t say it, but it´s well known that they didn´t allow their sons to play with charnegos or be near there. There are several quotes of Pujol talking about the rubbish from Andalucia and Extremadura.
The "charnegos al paredón" came in a meeting of ANC , a nationalistassociation
, mainly responsible of propaganda.
Forcadell (ex president of catalan parlament was president of this group). This was simply someone from the public shouting what they all think
By the way, he, Victor Cucurull, the guy talking defends that Colón, Americo Vespucio,Santa Teresa de Jesús and Cervantes are catalans, but became spaniards for some kind of opression.
In the second video, a very popular presenter is called "charnego de mierda" because he doesn´t reply in catalan
In this last video, a mosso(catalan police) talks about andalusians, who according to him are all lazy and come to get public helps.

That is the daily environment for many Catalans who do not agree
The next are the typical graffitis in front of political parties offices in small towns, this one was yesterday, to the Socialists in Vilanova i la Geltru, it says:
"you will never sleep quietly "

Spoiler

the next one is in Cataluña, in front of the house of the judge, Llarena "Llarena Fascist, not in Das(the town) or nowhere". After that someone gave the personal info about his wife, including the job location. Bodyguards have been sent to protect politicians and Llarena has been relocated to Madrid

Spoiler