Fred is going to be a great player for us. Exactly the speed of passing, quick touch and energy we've needed. He will take time to adjust thou, especially with how fast you are closed down in the EPL.
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Looked like he had good energy and he hits a lovely pass. Will complement that midfield well.
Ok, was a debut so must make allowances but I saw nothing on Friday evening to suggest that he can control a midfield.
He's not a controlling midfielder nor was he bought to become one for Manchester United so you saw correctly.
What was he bought for?
Improve our ability to cut through opposition pressing us high up the pitch and improve the speed of our transition from defense into attack. Also to give us more steel in midfield and free up Pogba from having to balance being our primary creative force while also having major defensive responsibilities.
Mourinho said he was bought for his creative brain and passing vision.
Yes and that will help in improving in speeding up our transitions when we regain possession as well as make us more of a threat on the counter. He's not the midfielder who is going to set the tempo and control games like a Carrick. Pereira may be, but for now Pogba is the one we'll be depending upon to dictate games.
He's not a Carrick or Scholes. He's a link between defence and attack. He'll find ways out of tricky situations, pass well between the lines, carry the ball and pose a thread around the box. Not really sure what your point is to be honest.
He's the sort of player that starts out as an energetic midfielder with good quality on the ball, but could well become a controlling midfielder with age and experience in the league, if that's what you're hoping for?
Pogba does not dictate games but I agree with all that you said.
We have Matic who dictates the tempo of the game already. Fred just completes our midfield trio. I really like him because he offers more mobility than Herrera.
I agree he didn't, generally, but I believe he has that ability.
I like that there is nobody in our selection of CMs whom Fred can't play with. He's more dynamic on the ball than Herrera, Matic, Fellaini or McTominay and his defensive work makes him a good fit alongside Pogba and Pereira. I don't believe he's going to be a star, but he has a nice array of skills which make him a potentially excellent complementary player that will free up others to shine.
I don’t see why the on-the-ball qualities you describe can’t be construed as controlling midfield.
I used to think so during his Juventus days when I never watched him but after 2 years I’m afraid it’s just not in his locker. I’ve noticed that Pogba likes going for the Hollywood pass or long ball when sometimes a closer option is available. Those little details tells you more about how a player thinks on the pitch. His decision making let’s him down a lot but that’s due to him mostly trying to rush things.
On the other hand a change of tactics would see him play differently and know when to utilize the long ball or when to keep it simple but I’m afraid our current football philosophy doesn’t encourage that. I still have hope that under a more progressive manager a lot of our star players could be much better.
Also I love Fred. It will take him time to adjust to the pace of the league. He and matic can play with anybody in our midfield and still exceed. My only concern though is he fall a lot. I don’t feel he has a balance issue because he is such a good dribbler but he does fall a lot.
As a dynamic midfield option to complement Pogba and Matic, an energetic mid who can play in tight spaces and under pressure with an eye for a forward pass.
It will take him time to adjust to the speed of the league, jus hope he cements his position with some solid performances.
'Controlling the midfield', in my eyes is dictating the tempo and direction of play i.e. the main distributor of the side. I don't see that as Fred's role, he's more the tenacious type.
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Because controlling midfield involves being able to speed things up and slow them down (as well as, crucially, getting decisions between the two options consistently right).
My point couldn’t be any clearer. We have zero control of midfield since Carrick stopped being a top player about three years ago. I was hoping that a 50m midfield signing might provide it. But apparently not... ( btw you mention Carrick and Scholes as if they were in some way similar, did you ever see these guys play football??)
Excellent description. Do we have anyone who can provide this? Maybe Matic but he’s gone for months. Not PP or Fred definitely.
Wow, you have serious insight into why we bought him, I’m impressed.
Control is responsibility of all midfielders, a crucial part of the role.
I have as much insight as anybody else on this forum where we express our opinions. It's pretty cool.
Control is the consequence of the function of CMs but there are certain players like Kroos, Modric, Scholes, Carrick, Alonso, Xavi, etc. who quite literally control and dictate the flow of matches. If you think Fred was brought in to be that type of player that's cool, but I'm pretty sure his purpose and function in the side will not be to dictate and control matches from midfield.
If you didn't think he had a good game you need to get down to Specsavers lad.
A solid 7/10 performance easily.
I would give his first touch and exquisite chipped pass onto Sanchez for that header a 9.5
Nice to finally have a player with WC touch in CM. Will be good to make something out of the utter shite that comes into them from CM without having to bring it to control with multiple touches and dribble back to where the ball came from in the first place
Pereira?
I suppose he’s going to get his chance now anyway, so hopefully he can deliver. Some decent touches Friday but Leicester dominated the midfield.
There's absolutely no doubt he loves playing on the offensive. His casual first touches and the instinct of always looking forward when he has the ball are evidence of this. I don't think it will last long though. I fear the pace of the Premiere League, the lack of movement upfront and the general tactics of our manager will stifle him. Hope I'm wrong because our team does need offensive dynamism.
His average rating here was 6.5. I gave him 6. He was OK but Leicester dominated the midfield.
Leicester dominated for about 1/2 hour after we scored. I thought we dominated in the second half
I think he does, more so than Matic, he’s just not very good at it. Matic will often keep the ball ticking (a bit too slowly I think), but Pogba will most often by his actions decide wether to keep the ball or to play, to go back or to which side, counter, explosion through the mid or slow build. It just seems it happens mostly on a whim and often doesn’t work out that well. Fingers crossed he will improve.
Zero? Think you’re overdoing it. Controlling midfield is mostly about recapturing and retaining the ball. In that sense, Pereira/Matic/Pogba/Fred gives us very good options as indicated by the Leicester game. All players who are hard to pass and can controll and pass the ball well in narrow space. Fred needs to get used to the intensity and the bullying, but you see he has the qualities, and the defensive cooperation between them was very good on Friday. Our front three where unfortunately disasterous in retaining posession much of the game, allowing Leicester to bounce back quickly.
When it comes to controlling the game, tempo, direction, I think we depend upon Pogba understanding more football. Matic isn’t quite that player in my view. Pereira does show the talent for it, and it would be interesting if he could continue along the lines he has started this season.
Both Scholes and Carrick had a similar talent both for controlling the midfield by good interpositioning and quick and precise pass-and-move. My favorite pivote of all time. Both could also control the game/tempo/direction, and had and understanding so that if Scholes took the initiative, Carrick would fall in line, and vice versa. Like the perfect volleyball partners. Most teams will have one player with that skill set.
Agree with that.
I agree. I also think alot of our lack of control stemmed from dropping far too deep defensively and not pressing at all as well as our front 3 failing to hold the ball up well when we regained possession and played through midfield.
Leicester didn't dominate by force, we sat off them and closed space just like Jose desires.
Going 1-0 up so early meant we tried to play counter attack quite quickly, which made us look like we weren't in control.
Usual suspects with the red-tinted spectacles, I see.I would give his first touch and exquisite chipped pass onto Sanchez for that header a 9.5
Nice to finally have a player with WC touch in CM. Will be good to make something out of the utter shite that comes into them from CM without having to bring it to control with multiple touches and dribble back to where the ball came from in the first place
I thought Fred did ok. Some nice touche and he passed the ball accurately and well. However, he clearly struggled with the pace of the game, got caught in possession quite a few times, lost most of his physical battles and seemed to get a bit wound up by the standard sort of robust tackles he’ll have to get used to in this league.
You can see there’s a good player in there somewhere and that performance left me cautiously optimistic. However I think he’ll take a while to settle. There was at least one more impressive CM debut over the weekend but I suspect you two are in denial about that too.
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I was extremely impressed with Fred on Friday night. We've been crying out for a midfielder like that for a long time, I like his aggression and tenacity.
Watched his individual highlights back again, had some poor touches here and there, defensively he was a bit shaky but some of his passes were brilliant, we have some really excellent passers in midfield at the moment. Think he'll take a bit of time to acclimatise to the league but there's a very good player in him, he showed promise. 6/10 for Friday would be my rating too, first game in the Premier League, think he did fine.
Don't be all cryptic. Let's hear you fawn over Liverpool?
FWIW Fred has had minimal pre season given he was essentially injured over the summer. His game is forward thinking so playing high risk football, and subsequently losing possession at times, will happen. He'll take a risk in order to speed up the transition from back to front - something, which if we are to be effective, we really need. With Matic or Pereria sitting in behind it shouldn't be that much of a problem and will improve our forward play no end.
He's a tenacious player and will niggle opponents. Again I'm quite happy about that, and his fiery attitude, as it gives us a little more bite.
Not really sure how 7/10 rating is rose tinted but whatever fits your current narrative that United aren't upto much.
Hehe. Gotcha. I could have been talking about Jorginho. Interesting to find out you were impressed by Keita. You'd obviously never admit it outright
He didn't lose the ball with risk passes (hence his pass completion was around 90%) He lost it by taking one too many touches and/or being out-muscled in contact. I agree he's tenacious and fiery. I like that about him too and look forward to seeing a lot more of it. I'm probably splitting hairs here but I see 7/10 as generous and would have given him no more than 6 overall. It was really the 9.5 for a decent - but not amazing - chipped pass into the box that was the most obvious giddiness.
I just assumed you were going to mention Liverpool as you seem to be getting aroused by them lately..Hehe. Gotcha. I could have been talking about Jorginho. Interesting to find out you were impressed by Keita. You'd obviously never admit it outright
He didn't lose the ball with risk passes (hence his pass completion was around 90%) He lost it by taking one too many touches and/or being out-muscled in contact. I agree he's tenacious and fiery. I like that about him too and look forward to seeing a lot more of it. I'm probably splitting hairs here but I see 7/10 as generous and would have given him no more than 6 overall. It was really the 9.5 for a decent - but not amazing - chipped pass into the box that was the most obvious giddiness.
I actually thought Jorginho has the best opening day but as said Fred is behind both him and Keita in terms of fitness and match sharpness given he was crippled by Casimero in the summer and sat most of it out.
Most outlets seem to have his rating at a 6 or 7 so not sure how I can be seen as OTT.
If he struggled with the pace of the game then what excuse did the rest have. Obviously, he is not optimally fit given the facts. He didn't get wound up he was tripped off the ball blatantly and got a yellow card for the privilege.
All I did was have a laugh with @TheReligion about those 2 narrow aspects of his performance. Usual inane comment from someone who should have gone to spec savers
Also, it may have escaped your all-encompassing attention to detail but this is the Fred performance thread and you mentioned about us being in "denial" because we did not mention the "other CM performance" is totally irrelevant.
Don't speak about denial or try to use sarcasm because it really does not suit you...
a) I accused you of being in denial because you failed to notice/mention the obvious flaws in Fred’s performance.If he struggled with the pace of the game then what excuse did the rest have. Obviously, he is not optimally fit given the facts. He didn't get wound up he was tripped off the ball blatantly and got a yellow card for the privilege.
All I did was have a laugh with @TheReligion about those 2 narrow aspects of his performance. Usual inane comment from someone who should have gone to spec savers
Also, it may have escaped your all-encompassing attention to detail but this is the Fred performance thread and you mentioned about us being in "denial" because we did not mention the "other CM performance" is totally irrelevant.
Don't speak about denial or try to use sarcasm because it really does not suit you...
b) I “suspect” you’re also in denial about the better performances from the other CMs because I doubt you gave them similar rave reviews in their threads. I obviously can’t be arsed checking.
c) Your closing sentence is just fecking weird.
d) So are you.
I didn’t watch Jorginho’s performance so will have to take your word that he was the most impressive of the three of them. Ditto re pre-season. I assumed Fred was involved in a similar amount of pre-season games to Keita so his issue was more down to struggling with the pace of the league than any ring rustiness. Again, I’ll have to take your word for this if that’s not the case.
a) I did not deny anything about the mistakes that Fred made in the game.
b)Nice back peddle contradicting your first point also admitting you don't even know and can't be arsed checking.
c/d)Ironic because your last sentence makes absolutely no sense "so are you" does not apply to what i said...
All in all, how me using a "
" on commenting on his first touch and that pass to Sanchez has caused you to go on a rant is strange. You lashed out at me for a light-hearted smiley about a particular skill of a player performed in a match. I don't need you to tell me about the mistakes he made because we all saw the game and I was not doing a minute by minute analysis of his performance but again just merely commenting about literally 2 things in a one-line expression using a smile. This seems to have bothered you. I will take note and will avoid this in future because it has clearly upset you. I won't comment any further since the last thing we all want is another one of those ghastly scenes with you throwing another biblical strop and well... you know how the rest goes...
@TheReligion This is your fault mate I will never respond to one of your posts again!
Keita didn't go to the world cup and has had a full pre season, much like Jorginho.
Fred went with Brazil and got injured just after we signed him.
Jorginho - Started 5 pre season games
Keita - Started 3 pre season games and had 90 minutes in sub appearances
Fred - Started one pre season game and had 40 minutes in sub appearances
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