[Gandalf Greyhame]

There is no doubt that Pogba is the most creative player in our team. All Ole has done is give him protection behind, movement ahead and a licence to do whatever he wants. No wonder he looks good.

I don't subscribe to the 'he's either world class or he's an inconsistent fanny' view. The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between. He can be world class but his maturity levels (in terms of decision making, handling himself in the face of adversity, focus throughout the 90 minutes, game after game, knowing when you need a fancy step over or when you need a simple pass) need to improve.

I'm just glad we have a manager who is trying to get the best out of him rather than corner him into his worst.

 

[bosnian_red]

You know, I suddenly feel like I love him as a player and cant wait for his future here. Obviously if he decides to feck off to Madrid or some thing it all goes in the trash, but hopefully he kicks on and stays for a while, hes captain material.

 

[Isotope]

Initially true, but it is a lot more forgivable from an attacker to lose the ball and not chase after it, than it is with a midfielder. Not that he should be doing that in dangerous positions anyways like he has been, on a few occasions, but I will certainly be more forgivable with some of his nonchalant shenanigans if he could add goals to his performances to compensate.

Certainly more goals won't hurt. But the nonchalant critics, reminds me of past fans opinion on Carrick (one of my favorite player). Fans accused him of slow, labored, and barely move. But it's just his style. Carrick was always on (one of) the top of covered distance, and passing numbers. He wasn't combative, but more like positioning and always make himself available. It's the same with Pogba, but on further up the pitch.

 

[Twingatz]

I'm not fixated on it. People keep answering me, including yourself, so I have answered them.

In terms of options, you boot the ball away from goal. You don't start juggling the ball and then lose it there. But it was the incident in the whole context of his performance, which was obviously lackadaisical and lacking in effort. That's why he has been criticised so much by so many people. It is also symptomatic of his profile in the game, but he is largely responsible for that. If he wanted to then he could fly under the radar far more than he chooses to do so.

In terms of ability vs work ethic, you don't have a choice. You have to have both. If you don't have both then you will not fulfil your potential in any sport at the highest level.

Finally, I don't see how you can claim that Pogba works as hard as anyone at United, when he has continually been criticised for his attitude, and has quite obviously been shown to have a lax approach at times.

It's pretty amazing to me that people will give this guy, who has significantly underachieved for United, who is being paid vast amounts of money, who absolutely loves being the centre of attention, who has been playing like a drain, and then just magically starts playing really well as soon as a new manager comes along, such a free pass. Maybe it's a generational thing.

I feel this is disrespectful to the player. He has his flaws but at the same time he doesn't have a bad attitude or is toxic like you think. When you have a coach that disrespects you and doesn't value you, you aren't going to play well for them. Also when you have a coach and pundits that band fans against you that's even worse. I would be really pissed off. Also not every player reacts to criticism the same way. Pogba obviously is someone who needs a shoulder around him and not a kick in the butt because that won't work. Him and someone like Keane would butt heads rather than him listening to him.

He has the capability to be the best midfielder in the world on his day and can still be it. He has been United's best player this season bar none. Get behind the player.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

You must be arguing with yourself fella, my post says none of the things that seem to have put you in a twist. Hilarious

I am simply laughing at your attempt at excusing Pogba's inconsistency by blaming his managers.

 

[Bobcat]

Carried the team today... he really is such a good player and it is ridiculous that he has been benched for someone like McTominay

It really reflects poorly on Jose doesn't it? Alienating you best players, making them play shite, benching them and nearly forcing them out of the club, what the hell kind of man management is that

 

[E-mal]

That depends on the standard of measure.

A player like him should be consistently dominating the midfield and winning motm. Even at the world cup, he didnt win a single motm that even kante and umtiti won. He has it in him but just doesn't deliver on it consistently

For all his talent, I have never liked his lackadaisical approach to the game. He often reminds me of the Nigerian Jay-Jay Okocha.

You don't like good things, that much is obvious.

 

[Cloud7]

No, people from your generation think that too. People from your generation that you know are mostly people who grew up in a similar environment. Most people from your generation didnt grow up in a similar environment. There's plenty of people from your generation on here that don't give a shit about half of that, that you don't even realise are from your generation. The things you value in football aren't based on anything real or important so it's silly to think they would just be how people from an entire generation think about it.

To me, the fact he wants to be the centre of attention is irrelevant. And it's been irrelevant for generations. Georgie Best loved it as much as Cantona loved it. Pogba doesn't love it more than Best. It's just easier to see it because of the media. And he was given many free passes for doing many things to disrespect the club, many times after underperforming due to his own selfish actions. If you think he never lacked effort then you've never cared to look hard enough. And it's not like he wasn't paid a relative fortune. Yet he was adored most of the time by most people, because they were willing to put that aside and concentrate on the more important stuff.

What Pogba does is qualitatively different and you might take more issue with how he goes about doing these things, or the environment he exists in (money, media, management) but substantively...nahhh. It's just mythology. Many superstars acted unreasonably in many ways in every generation. Superstardom has some adverse effects, unfortunately. If you want yo avoid them then following mediocrity is a pretty safe bet.

Your posts in this thread have been top notch.

 

[EwanI Ted]

Happy to see Pogba on the up. Talent is the rarest commodity in football, and Pogba has it in spades. If we were really prepared to drop a game changer and match winner from our team because he couldnt focus when defending, well, something was very wrong. Let’s just keep him near the opposition goal and watch good stuff happen.

 

[K2K]

My problem with Pogba has never been about the player he could be, it's been more about the player he actually has been these last couple of years and, frankly, he's been a disgrace for most of that time.
For a world record fee and a monumental salary he's spent more time doing his hair, plugging his image, faffing about in midfield, taking too many touches, loosing the ball and falling over claiming to be fouled than actually playing football.
The gap between his potential and his actual performances has been so huge that I'd happily have seen him go at any time up until last Tuesday.
However, if he pulls his finger out and performs to his ability 8 times out of 10 under Ole then what a player we have......time will tell!

This garbage again.

Sigh

 

[Jeppers7]

Let's be clear, Pogba's behaviour in the aftermath of Mourinho's sacking was anything but classy. One suspects his thanks to Mourinho may indicate that he's feeling a bit sheepish about what he did (or maybe he's taken some of Carrick's observations on board).

I'm just pleased that he has started to put in some proper and committed performances now Ole is the manager, and I hope that continues. We certainly do look better with him in the side and looking like he wants to be there. Some will argue that Pogba's indifferent performances in his latter games under Mourinho were a consequence of the managers tactics, while others will argue that Pogba was giving less than 100%. Only Pogba will know for sure whether that latter argument is true or not.

What did he do ?

 

[cheeky_backheel]

You don't like good things, that much is obvious.

what is good about a player being inconsistent and lackadaisical about the game?
Do you see those traits in players like Messi or CR7?
Do you think a more focused and consistent Pogba would not be better than KDB and in WPOTY conversations?

 

[FootyGirl88]

what is good about a player being inconsistent and lackadaisical about the game?
Do you see those traits in players like Messi or CR7?
Do you think a more focused and consistent Pogba would not be better than KDB and in WPOTY conversations?

When Pogba was at Juventus he looked head and shoulders above KDB especially when they met in the CL. Fast forward a few seasons KDB starts playing under Pep and goes up a level, Pogba starts regressing under Jose.

I'm pretty sure when he was at Juve people weren't mentioning his consistency as much as they do now.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

Happy to see Pogba on the up. Talent is the rarest commodity in football, and Pogba has it in spades. If we were really prepared to drop a game changer and match winner from our team because he couldnt focus when defending, well, something was very wrong. Let’s just keep him near the opposition goal and watch good stuff happen.

It less about his defending as his antics occurs more often when he has possession.

It is good if he can add defensive effort to his game but it unacceptable imo for him to lose the ball in dangerous areas cos he trying to do some tricks with the ball when a simple pass or clearance would suffice (e.g. see earlier southampton clip or Everton).

Pogba is the most dispossessed midfielder (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/dispossessed), a stat that shouldnt be associated with a player with his capabilities.

 

[cheeky_backheel]

When Pogba was at Juventus he looked head and shoulders above KDB especially when they met in the CL. Fast forward a few seasons KDB starts playing under Pep and goes up a level, Pogba starts regressing under Jose.

I'm pretty sure when he was at Juve people weren't mentioning his consistency as much as they do now.

Juve was a far superior team to the rest of the serie A, and Pogba was younger so his consistency was less of a concern.

Fast forward a few years, and while KDB has matured and taken to his responsibilities, we are still waiting for Pogba (though he is a bit younger).

Personally, I dont see it as a manager issue but simply a personality and mentality issue. Pogba has had enough opportunity to step up in that department, not only with our current squad but also France NT. I personally expected Pogba to deliver such at the WC but was as usual left with only flashes here and there.

 

[Jeppers7]

I'm not fixated on it. People keep answering me, including yourself, so I have answered them.

In terms of options, you boot the ball away from goal. You don't start juggling the ball and then lose it there. But it was the incident in the whole context of his performance, which was obviously lackadaisical and lacking in effort. That's why he has been criticised so much by so many people. It is also symptomatic of his profile in the game, but he is largely responsible for that. If he wanted to then he could fly under the radar far more than he chooses to do so.

In terms of ability vs work ethic, you don't have a choice. You have to have both. If you don't have both then you will not fulfil your potential in any sport at the highest level.

Finally, I don't see how you can claim that Pogba works as hard as anyone at United, when he has continually been criticised for his attitude, and has quite obviously been shown to have a lax approach at times.

It's pretty amazing to me that people will give this guy, who has significantly underachieved for United, who is being paid vast amounts of money, who absolutely loves being the centre of attention, who has been playing like a drain, and then just magically starts playing really well as soon as a new manager comes along, such a free pass. Maybe it's a generational thing.

Greame is that you ?

 

[In Rainbows]

what is good about a player being inconsistent and lackadaisical about the game?
Do you see those traits in players like Messi or CR7?
Do you think a more focused and consistent Pogba would not be better than KDB and in WPOTY conversations?

Where do you get this idea that he's lackadaisical about football? His goal is to one day win the Balon D'or and be better than Messi and Ronaldo. Now that isn't going to happen, but the point is that's his goal. Any player who has that goal is completely serious about football.

 

[Jeppers7]

Looking through the season.....22 appearances for me he's had :-

2 terrible performances

3 poor performances.

7 good. Performances

5 outstanding performances

7 goals 9 assists.

So I suppose it's how you look at it. Statistically there's no argument he's done well.

Performance wise if you focus on the negative you could say he's been poor for a quarter of the season and blame the teams performances and results on him.

If you look at it on the positive, then 7 goals 9 assists, 5 outstanding performances and 7 good performances in a team that hasn't played well at all. That's an excellent output.

The media is focussed very negatively I don't think there's any doubt about that, as an individual I can see how people look at this and see it both ways.

 

[Litch]

There's not a person on this planet that will give 100% in their respective place of work if they have a problem with their manager or their manager as a problem with them, whoever fault it is. What makes the relationship even worse is if the manager goes public with it to others outside the team or if the person creates divisions within it, both of which amounts to the lack of productivity.

This scenario plays out in every place of work which normally amounts to either the manager being sacked for not being able to 'manage' the situation appropriately, the person being sacked for not doing their job in spite of the manager or either one of them just leaving to work elsewhere. Normally the company wants to get rid of one of them anyway (easiest one to replace) and uses this situation to do so. Some manufacturer to leave as they either couldn't do it or no longer wanted to but didn't want to leave without being paid off or wanted to leave without the sigma of failure.
Rarely do both leave but ultimately whoever is left will go eventually anyway for the part they have played in it...

Pogba goes in the summer....watch this space

 

[Twingatz]

Juve was a far superior team to the rest of the serie A, and Pogba was younger so his consistency was less of a concern.

Fast forward a few years, and while KDB has matured and taken to his responsibilities, we are still waiting for Pogba (though he is a bit younger).

Personally, I dont see it as a manager issue but simply a personality and mentality issue. Pogba has had enough opportunity to step up in that department, not only with our current squad but also France NT. I personally expected Pogba to deliver such at the WC but was as usual left with only flashes here and there.

Pogba has matured and that is seen in his stats for Man Utd. Also tactics and a manager that has disrespected him has hurt his game. He will be the best Midfielder in the world. Pogba had an excellent world Cup and scored and assisted in the World Cup final. Not many players can claim that. Not even players like Messi or Ronaldo who to some people are supposedly the best players ever.

Also you have been very disrespectful to Jay Jay Ockocha.

 

[Rozay]

I’ve always argued this too, to me perception in football has become almost as powerful as the results themselves.

Very much so. Football is coming more and more like a religion, and there are many who say religion brainwashed some. I think a lot of football watchers are not as in control of their opinions as they like to think they are. These opinions are often shaped by narrative. Largely because we don’t have the time to watch as much football as we would like, so we rely on others to fill in the gaps, and just the fact that we’re in an age where we are overloaded with information in general.

Manchester United finished second last season. Didn’t have anyone in the PL team, except De Gea. All the best players in the league played for teams worse than us. We still came out of the season with a weird feeling of failure.

The thing is, including City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc - United are the only team that is demanded to win the league. If any other team finishes second, they will be seen to have had a good season. Even.City after spending loads, or Liverpool. A second place finish will never be spun as a negative. But we’re a different club. We’ve won so much that unless we win, we are spoken of in the context of underachievement. That rarely applies to anyone else, so individuals like Pogba are already working against the narrative of failing. I’ve said before, but last year and before, I suspect your average pundit would say someone like Mousa Dembele was a better player than Pogba. No chance he is, but Pogba can’t meet their mythical expectation, yet Dembele has exceeded the more modest ones they put on him. So he’s showered with praise, Pogba less so.

And finally Modric. I’ve said all year that’s I think Pogba is better than him. I do, but I understand why that will be seen as controversial. In my opinion, that too has a lot to do with narrative and expectation. Modric has far less expected of him as an individual. And then his team has been a runaway success on the biggest stage for the last few years. Pogba could never match that. Take the recent game against Cardiff. I think most people think Pogba player ‘well’, but there seems to be a consensus that ‘he wasn’t even at his best’, or ‘he didn’t even have a GREAT game’. What they mean, is that by Pogba standard, he hasn’t had a great game. The truth, in my opinion, is that a Paul Pogba ‘great’ game, and a Luka Modric ‘great’ game are of different standards. In terms of demand an expectation. Modric would have had to do no more than Pogba against Cardiff to be seen as having had a great game. With Pogba, it’s kind of ‘good, but let’s not get carried away, there’s more to come’. In summary, a lot of Modric performances in recent years would not be seen as good enough for Pogba, not unless the rest of Pogba’s team also played as well as Real and we were as successful. Modric is seen as better as he always plays well, but I think there’s subconsciously a lower bar for him to meet to play well than there is for Pogba. A lot of Modric’s good games might just be about enough to not criticise Pogba and say he was alright. But when coupled with trophies, he’s seen as better.

I’ve said before, but nothing proves this more than the widespread lauding of Pogba’s World Cup. That’s what happens when you’re part of a winning team. He did nothing special, kept it simple for the most part, and if France went out second round, I believe the narrative would have been that he ‘didn’t do enough’. However, after they win, the ‘experts’ say ‘that’s the Pogba we want to see every week, keep it simple’. But when he explodes at the Etihad and scores two goals to win the game, ‘that’s the Pogba we want to see every week’. Two very different Pogba’s. The reality is they don’t really know what they want. I think it’s a simple formula - they want him to make United win everything again. That’s the bar for him. Not the bar for Dembele, Modric etc. Just Pogba. I can guarantee that Pogba would draw nothing like the same praise if he played every week for us like he did for France.

All in my opinion, of course.

 

[izec]

The man.

90m looks like a bargain compared to the money we paid for Lukaku

 

[Brwned]

There's not a person on this planet that will give 100% in their respective place of work if they have a problem with their manager or their manager as a problem with them, whoever fault it is. What makes the relationship even worse is if the manager goes public with it to others outside the team or if the person creates divisions within it, both of which amounts to the lack of productivity.

This scenario plays out in every place of work which normally amounts to either the manager being sacked for not being able to 'manage' the situation appropriately, the person being sacked for not doing their job in spite of the manager or either one of them just leaving to work elsewhere. Normally the company wants to get rid of one of them anyway (easiest one to replace) and uses this situation to do so. Some manufacturer to leave as they either couldn't do it or no longer wanted to but didn't want to leave without being paid off or wanted to leave without the sigma of failure.
Rarely do both leave but ultimately whoever is left will go eventually anyway for the part they have played in it...

Pogba goes in the summer....watch this space

Agree with all of that but it's still an uncomfortable reality to embrace. Is that something that all cultures are uncomfortable with, or just our culture? I tend to think that the values that a country associates with its football reflect the values of the working class, because since the beginning it has been a working class game. That's the thing that Sir Alex never forgot, which I think Mourinho probably did and I think Pogba might not have figured out. That's what angers a lot of United fans about Pogba, understandably - he doesn't recognise what they value, or he doesn't care, and they see that as disrespectful. I just wish people would stop giving a shit about that sense of respect, because Pogba can bring so much joy to them as football fans if we give him a space to flourish. It's unbelievable how good he could be if we create the right conditions for him.

The values of working class people in the UK and Brazil are far apart in many ways, in much the same way the values of the average football fan in the UK and Brazil are very different. The stereotype about growing up playing football in the favelas is one of escapism, it's about sheer joy and self-expression in that one aspect of their lives where they can do so. And generally my understanding is that the Brazilian working class people do not have that "protestant work ethic" as a driving force of their way to escape the harsh realities of their lives. Whereas for British people who struggle in early life, the message is that you have to work harder than anyone else, show grit and determination, and eventually you'll pull yourself up by the boot straps and step into a better reality. Beyond Brazilian kids in the favelas being told they should be exceptional at football because they can create a better life for themselves, I don't know what else it is they're being told, but I'd guess it's less about grit. I think I've read it's much more fatalistic.

In any case, the result of that in football is that Brazilian fans think it is criminal for the best players not to express themselves, not to be flamboyant, not to have fun while being brilliant. The majority of football fans here clearly don't feel that way. There's still a large proportion who don't think players should be trying tricks anywhere, a majority who think they shouldn't be trying tricks in dangerous places, and a strong majority who don't think fun should even come into it. Their focus should be on hard work, discipline and being a team player. Brazilian fans acknowledge that not every player can be like Neymar, so if you're someone like Fernandinho then you need to work your balls off to allow the others to play. But they recognise that for the players who do have that talent and flair, they need to nurture it, and they need to accept it comes with an ego, with carelessness, with immaturity. That doesn't stop being annoying to them, but it doesn't become their central focus. For most fans in England, it becomes their central focus. We don't nurture creative brilliance half as well.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with different football cultures, but it's strange for me that people don't listen to a French fan who has watched Pogba for longer than us, understands his view of football better than we do, and has a really relevant example of how they think about this situation for his own French club...

I see a LOT of posts here interpreting Pogba's mentality through missed flicks that would mean that he thinks he's the best and that he doesn't care about the Man Utd's jersey. I've never read anything so far fetched. He does things because he thinks it's going to work, it's not always true, he makes mistakes but it doesn't mean he thinks he's bigger than the club.

At PSG we have Verratti that does an incredible amount of risky stuffs close to our box, fortunately he really rarely looses the ball but when he does. nobody thinks that's because he thinks is better, we just call it a poor judgement and hope he won't do it anymore knowing that it might happen the next game because that's just the way he plays. And when you're not in the right state of mind, it has a tendancy to happen more oftent. Pogba doesn't do it on purpose, he doesn't think "lets try this because i might loose the ball and i don't care because i don't give a feck about this club", it's not about professionalism, it's just about being in the right state of mind.

And when he see these comments about instagram and the haircuts... god that's such a cheap way to try to find trash about him.

 

[Litch]

Very much so. Football is coming more and more like a religion, and there are many who say religion brainwashed some. I think a lot of football watchers are not as in control of their opinions as they like to think they are. These opinions are often shaped by narrative. Largely because we don’t have the time to watch as much football as we would like, so we rely on others to fill in the gaps, and just the fact that we’re in an age where we are overloaded with information in general.

Manchester United finished second last season. Didn’t have anyone in the PL team, except De Gea. All the best players in the league played for teams worse than us. We still came out of the season with a weird feeling of failure.

The thing is, including City, Liverpool, Chelsea etc - United are the only team that is demanded to win the league. If any other team finishes second, they will be seen to have had a good season. Even.City after spending loads, or Liverpool. A second place finish will never be spun as a negative. But we’re a different club. We’ve won so much that unless we win, we are spoken of in the context of underachievement. That rarely applies to anyone else, so individuals like Pogba are already working against the narrative of failing. I’ve said before, but last year and before, I suspect your average pundit would say someone like Mousa Dembele was a better player than Pogba. No chance he is, but Pogba can’t meet their mythical expectation, yet Dembele has exceeded the more modest ones they put on him. So he’s showered with praise, Pogba less so.

And finally Modric. I’ve said all year that’s I think Pogba is better than him. I do, but I understand why that will be seen as controversial. In my opinion, that too has a lot to do with narrative and expectation. Modric has far less expected of him as an individual. And then his team has been a runaway success on the biggest stage for the last few years. Pogba could never match that. Take the recent game against Cardiff. I think most people think Pogba player ‘well’, but there seems to be a consensus that ‘he wasn’t even at his best’, or ‘he didn’t even have a GREAT game’. What they mean, is that by Pogba standard, he hasn’t had a great game. The truth, in my opinion, is that a Paul Pogba ‘great’ game, and a Luka Modric ‘great’ game are of different standards. In terms of demand an expectation. Modric would have had to do no more than Pogba against Cardiff to be seen as having had a great game. With Pogba, it’s kind of ‘good, but let’s not get carried away, there’s more to come’. In summary, a lot of Modric performances in recent years would not be seen as good enough for Pogba, not unless the rest of Pogba’s team also played as well as Real and we were as successful. Modric is seen as better as he always plays well, but I think there’s subconsciously a lower bar for him to meet to play well than there is for Pogba. A lot of Modric’s good games might just be about enough to not criticise Pogba and say he was alright. But when coupled with trophies, he’s seen as better.

I’ve said before, but nothing proves this more than the widespread lauding of Pogba’s World Cup. That’s what happens when you’re part of a winning team. He did nothing special, kept it simple for the most part, and if France went out second round, I believe the narrative would have been that he ‘didn’t do enough’. However, after they win, the ‘experts’ say ‘that’s the Pogba we want to see every week, keep it simple’. But when he explodes at the Etihad and scores two goals to win the game, ‘that’s the Pogba we want to see every week’. Two very different Pogba’s. The reality is they don’t really know what they want. I think it’s a simple formula - they want him to make United win everything again. That’s the bar for him. Not the bar for Dembele, Modric etc. Just Pogba. I can guarantee that Pogba would draw nothing like the same praise if he played every week for us like he did for France.

All in my opinion, of course.

Like that. The schizophrenic nature of football made worse when you are losing as people take a forensic look at everything and somehow 'john' down the pub becomes an expert in running, accounts and finance, investment, data, media, managing, recruitment, scouting, developing young players, signing world class players....of the biggest club in the world.
I'm sure Pogba and his team understand the fickle nature of football, and equal understands the many motives and hidden agendas that inform people's views. For many on here and in the media the vultures were already circling before he kicked a ball because the perception of what he stood for wasn't very palatable but it's amazing how we have amnesia when we are winning football matches......

 

[Seanus]

Looking through the season.....22 appearances for me he's had :-

2 terrible performances

3 poor performances.

7 good. Performances

5 outstanding performances

And 5 invisible ones?

 

[Litch]

Agree with all of that but it's still an uncomfortable reality to embrace. Is that something that all cultures are uncomfortable with, or just our culture? I tend to think that the values that a country associates with its football reflect the values of the working class, because since the beginning it has been a working class game. That's the thing that Sir Alex never forgot, which I think Mourinho probably did and I think Pogba might not have figured out.

The values of working class people in the UK and Brazil are far apart in many ways, in much the same way the values of the average football fan in the UK and Brazil are very different. The stereotype about growing up playing football in the favelas is one of escapism, it's about sheer joy and self-expression in that one aspect of their lives where they can do so. And generally my understanding is that the Brazilian working class people do not have that "protestant work ethic" as a driving force of their way to escape the harsh realities of their lives. Whereas for British people who struggle in early life, the message is that you have to work harder than anyone else, show grit and determination, and eventually you'll pull yourself up by the boot straps and step into a better reality. Beyond Brazilian kids in the favelas being told they should be exceptional at football because they can create a better life for themselves, I don't know what else it is they're being told, but I'd guess it's less about grit.

In any case, the result of that in football is that Brazilian fans think it is criminal for the best players not to express themselves, not to be flamboyant, not to have fun while being brilliant. The majority of football fans here clearly don't feel that way. There's still a large proportion who don't think players should be trying tricks anywhere, a majority who think they shouldn't be trying tricks in dangerous places, and a strong majority who don't think fun should even come into it. Their focus should be on hard work, discipline and being a team player. Brazilian fans acknowledge that not every player can be like Neymar, so if you're someone like Fernandinho then you need to work your balls off to allow the others to play. But they recognise that for the players who do have that talent and flair, they need to nurture it, and they need to accept it comes with an ego, with carelessness, with immaturity. That doesn't stop being annoying to them, but it doesn't become their central focus. For most fans in England, it becomes their central focus. We don't nurture creative brilliance half as well.

Obviously there's nothing wrong with different football cultures, but it's strange for me that people don't listen to a French fan who has watched Pogba for longer than us, understands his view of football better than we do, and has a really relevant example of how they think about this situation for his own French club...and then it's followed up with comments about laziness and social media.

Many factors and like most things it's based on our perception rather than fact. None of us know Pogba anymore than we know anyone on here other than what we post. What's funny is how it can evoke negative reactions from 'faceless' people just by posting a difference of opinion. Honestly, it doesn't surprise me that many footballers suffer from issues around their mental health when you think of the nature of the opinions held about you, your family, your colour or culture which are completely unrelated to football....

The only thing that informs our view of Pogs other than that is the thing that's the most unreliable...the media in general. Many on here simply interprete it to suit their own agenda. You can see it also in how they use stats....

The more Pogs makes light of it, the more it makes sense otherwise the alternative is a dark place. Life is too short to worry what John from Salford really thinks.

 

[Rozay]

Like that. The schizophrenic nature of football made worse when you are losing as people take a forensic look at everything and somehow 'john' down the pub becomes an expert in running, accounts and finance, investment, data, media, managing, recruitment, scouting, developing young players, signing world class players....of the biggest club in the world.
I'm sure Pogba and his team understand the fickle nature of football, and equal understands the many motives and hidden agendas that inform people's views. For many on here and in the media the vultures were already circling before he kicked a ball because the perception of what he stood for wasn't very palatable but it's amazing how we have amnesia when we are winning football matches......

Indeed. Opinions are so automated according to results that you even see this within a game itself.

‘I was going to give x man of the match, but following that late goal, I’ll give it to y’. Result of the match erases a great performance from the record.

 

[MDFC Manager]

The man.

90m looks like a bargain compared to the money we paid for Lukaku

There's people on here who were happy to replace him by spending 100m on the lanky guy from Lazio

 

[Litch]

Indeed. Opinions are so automated according to results that you even see this within a game itself.

‘I was going to give x man of the match, but following that late goal, I’ll give it to y’. Result of the match erases a great performance from the record.

Yep...I'm interested in how Demigod Pep will be reported if he wins feck all this season. The world looks like a very different place when you aren't winning.

The king is dead, long live the (Klopp) king.

 

[Jeppers7]

No...just decent ones, neither good nor bad. He's about the only player I can think of who is so polarised that he's always either seen as good or bad

 

[Seanus]

No...just decent ones, neither good nor bad. He's about the only player I can think of who is so polarised that he's always either seen as good or bad

Gotcha thanks and agreed

 

[Apokalips]

It less about his defending as his antics occurs more often when he has possession.

It is good if he can add defensive effort to his game but it unacceptable imo for him to lose the ball in dangerous areas cos he trying to do some tricks with the ball when a simple pass or clearance would suffice (e.g. see earlier southampton clip or Everton).

Pogba is the most dispossessed midfielder (https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/players/dispossessed), a stat that shouldnt be associated with a player with his capabilities.

Salah and Hazard are in the top 3? I guess you're out here criticizing them for this too right? De Bruyne gave the ball away more than any other player last season, a stat that shouldn't be associated with a player of his capabilities huh? Let's be consistent with our use of stats to praise or be critical of players.

 

[OldTrevil]

I’m not peddling any narrative, take the tinfoil hat off. He’s not been the player we’ve needed him to be since he joined in general - never mind this season, a season where his attitude dropped as well as his performances. No chance he’d get away with stuff like this 10/15 years ago.

I have a great feeling that from now he’ll really kick on and be that player we expected, but frankly outrageous for anyone to argue he’s not been sub par. Stats for goals and assists alone are enough proof.

Some United fans really are deluded - I bet you weren’t fighting his corner a few weeks back. Half the people on here thought he was the actual problem, glad to see people seeing what the real problem was.

A large amount of people believing in nonsense does not change it to reality. I don't analyze a football player in some mythical environment where he plays by himself, last time I checked this is not a tennis forum either. Pogba has been our best player since he joined. That does not mean he has met his potential or the expectation he has set for himself. If I thought he would come in and plug 5 or 6 different positions, turn players like Young, Jones, Fellaini, Smalling into world beaters, and make forwards finish off the chances he creates, then he would have been sub par since he joined. That, though, would not be football but rather some mythical magic and superhero sport. Feel free to have a discussion with those that follow such ridiculousness because I won't waste any more time on your garbage.

 

[Brwned]

Indeed. Opinions are so automated according to results that you even see this within a game itself.

‘I was going to give x man of the match, but following that late goal, I’ll give it to y’. Result of the match erases a great performance from the record.

That's not an automated response that's a subjective opinion on the value of what is objectively the most important part of football.

How you evaluate the contribution of control and fluidity and solidity to contributing to those goals and those wins is entirely subjective, and there's very little evidence for what really matters, but goals and results are clearly important. The rules have been designed to make them so. They just think goals are more important than you do. Not because they've been brainwashed but because they've thought about it and decided that themselves.

So what you're doing right here is exactly what you're criticising others for doing in the post just before. The only difference is they do it and don't care. You do it and sneer at the people who do. Brainwashed indeed.

 

[OldTrevil]

I am simply laughing at your attempt at excusing Pogba's inconsistency by blaming his managers.

You can either point to where I'm saying what you're claiming I've said or continue having that amusing argument with yourself. I've been on record saying Pogba has been performing well despite the negative systems he's been playing under. Maybe you have an issue with comprehension.

 

[Synco]

It's different because the players are different. I'm French so I watch France games, and as JPRouve said, it's not the same players around him. Now, we have Matuidi in left position so it's basically a similar role than Sissoko had in right position. But in 2016 we had Matuidi and not Kanté with Pogba in center midfield.

It's completely different, because in national team Kanté has a really defensive role and does not play like with Sarri. Matuidi, on the opposite, plays more like a Vieira-style I would say. For Payet and Mbappé... they don't have the same talent, of course, and are completely different kind of players. Payet is a kind of 10 who likes to touch often the ball and to dribble but he doesn't take space. Mbappé is a forward, likes to dribble, to shoot and he really doesn't play like a midfielder. So the main difference with Payet is that we have another forward, in consequence more passing options. If you watched France in the World Cup, you probably see that MBappé was basically more a forward than Giroud, who really was more a support (I don't know the word in english for this role) than a space eater. But we had Mbappé and Matuidi for that.

The problem when I see Pogba in Manchester is that there is a lack of this kind of profile. It's nice to have some strong players, but when you have only one pure dribbler (Alexis) and don't create space, it's difficult for a player like Pogba to shine. He's good when he can make a little bit of everything. But when he has to be the caricature of himself, he's pretty bad. In France, he wasn't play well when we had the same problem as Manchester under Mourinho. But in the World Cup, it was not Pogba who was better, it was the whole team, and in consequence, Pogba was good because he could bring this little bit of everything to the team. He didn't have to dribble because there was no movement around him. Even if he's strong, can be impressive with some dribble, Pogba is really dependant on teammates, and it was the problem until now in Manchester. When you offer him solutions, he has a good vision and a damn good technique to make the right move.

That seems a very good explanation, cheers. Quoting it as it got buried under the posts from the Huddersfield game.

I've settled for the 'a bit of everything' role as his best role too for some time. It's perhaps a bit trickier to properly integrate him in a team structure that way (as opposed to a more conventional midfielder with a more defined role), but the return makes it absolutely worth it, imo.

 

[Robbie Boy]

What a player. To think the acolytes wanted the likes of him and Martial sold is bloody hilarious

 

[VanGaalEra]

Build the squad, the team and the entire club around him.

Virus my ass.

 

[T00lsh3d]

Let’s sell him because he said we should attack more or something

Just remembered that. Wow....that whole episode looks so bizarre now

 

[Mick321]

Great to see him enjoying himself again, must have felt like he was in prison or something under the previous cnut. Bigger tests and hopefully bigger performances to come.