UK and US standards are quite different to be fair. We may be quite a right wing country but we're nowhere near the US.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Yeah, but I don't think no-deal is even really thought of as a solution. It's just the new, undefined fantasy position that people can attach whatever they want to. As soon as Brexit becomes defined in any way people don't want that Brexit.
Absolutely, as I say it's literally the absence of a solution that's somehow come to be considered as a viable option.
I don't even know what I am anymore, somewhere in the middle I guess. I'm pro abortion, same sex marriage, and generally legalizing whatever the Dutch have already legalized, but I'm against welfare states and wasting (imo) tax payer money on people who can't be arsed to work. I'm very much a believer that people should work to get what they want in life (unless they genuinely can't, obviously), so I dunno, I'm like half leftie half righty, or something, somewhere in the middle I guess.
I don't like the idea that you need to be a leftie to be pro EU, or that being pro EU is a leftie thing, because I don't think it's true. The EU is inherently beneficial for my country, and for me, and that's why I'm pro EU, for purely selfish reasons, not some ideology I have.
Anyway, wildly off topic.
I know but the bipartism in the UK doesn't allow nuances either. France is also a right wing country but the political landscape is larger.
"i'm alright jack"
Who has claimed victory? This thread is a discussion of what will and won't work with some moaning about parliament thrown in. The solutions discussed are nearly all brexit solutions so i don't know why you'd be portraying it as a remainer/leaver thing.
If your opinion is incorrect what response do you expect? You have a right to hold your opinion, you have a right to state your opinion but you don't have a right not to be politely told why its wrong
P.s fecking snowflake
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We can all agree it's been a disaster from day one. A small margin victory should never have been allowed to stand which has created this mess. Of the people who voted at the time is was 50/50. The whole country was divided, and probably still is to a degree. And as with any government decision they end up doing a half washed attempt at appeasing everyone. I voted leave, I am bothered if we remained now? Honestly no. Do I think we should still leave? Yes, provided key issues such as trade are sorted out properly. Once they have a deal in place should this go back to a second referendum? Yes.
I have already stated what I think would be a common sense approach but clearly that is never going to happen. Governments and unions can change laws and legislation as they want if they truly want something to change. Should the EU bend over backward for us? Obviously no, they need to protect their interests first. But I am sure they could be a bit more accommodating than they are.
@Massive Spanner Being pro EU most definitely isnt a leftie thing, there might be a large correlation but they are not the same thing at all. Corbyn is anti EU, McDonnell is anti EU, I daresay they are both to the left of most people in here.
I'm not sure you can say the UK is actually right wing, even the Tories accept many aspects of the welfare state, albeit through gritted teeth.
To answer @JPRouve though, is it true to say that there is much larger support for the far right in France than there is in the UK? It seems that way to me, but of course I'm viewing it through the British media.
The French are also more right wing than the UK in some regards too.
Ok y'all getting carried away again. I may have missed posts here and there, but to my mind the leave voters that have posted in here haven't been subjected to abuse. It's been more level headed than I'd expect if you were a remainer attempting to challenge leavers on a forum/community with a leave majority for example.
Where are the examples of Brexiters getting hounded off of here by anything more than a good question? I must have missed it...
Where are the examples of Brexiters getting hounded off of here by anything more than a good question? I must have missed it...
I think a lot of people reside in the middle. The left right extreme position is something that gets thrown around in internet battles. But I'm pretty sure it's more complex than that, people have varying positions on various things.
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Oh you have misunderstood. I completely understand that your goal is to have an open border between NI and ROI.
That is the goal though. So how are you going to go about achieving it? Are you going to insist on a border in the Irish Sea? Or are you going to keep Britain part of the Single Market? If it's neither of those two things, what is your proposed solution?
I can understand it being daunting because they're often asked to square the circle that is Mays red lines and none of us remainers can do that but the leavers rather than admitting that refuse to even engage the question.
If you have an open border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland wouldn't you need to do customs checks on all goods coming from Ireland to the EU? That would be a real kick in the teeth for the Republic of Ireland.
that's what the backstop is for, to prevent regulatory diverge in NI from RoI, don't need customs checks if they have the same standards
You can read some opinions here
https://www.quora.com/Can-a-Brexit-...leaving-the-largest-trading-bloc-in-the-world
Brexit in one sentence. Bravo!
The historical data is that if you don't have a frictionless border, then goods will be delayed, there are many places around the world to prove that. If you rely on WTO rules alone, you have to apply the same rules to everyone, if you don't want a hard border in Ireland both sides of the border have to be in the CU and SM.
But as the Uk want to have it both ways, there is no answer.
I wouldn't know how to compare. The far right is still for a large part a protest vote against other parties mainly PS and LR(our versions of Labour and Tory). When it comes to elections that matter for people, the far right is fairly weak and keep in mind that people elected a guy without a party as their president instead of supporting the far right and they are insignificant in the parliament(8 out of 577).
Sorry, which of these are you claiming is logical?
Good video.
I'm know someone in a similar position, its basically the conflict between wanting cheap workers/poor working conditions and hating immigrates.
My bad idea:
If everyone on the forum (preferably the country) gives me £1, I'd end up being quite rich/ Please could everyone do this? Go Fund Me page to follow.
If everyone on the forum (preferably the country) gives me £1, I'd end up being quite rich/ Please could everyone do this? Go Fund Me page to follow.
I'll post some evidence of the oppressive attitude to non-Remain voters in here later.
No-one is saying that Leave voters are more welcoming to Remainers. What people are saying that both sides are intolerant of the other, demonise the other, and make any conversation very difficult. Which is the explicit objective of some people in here. The fact that the one side might be worse does not make what the other side is doing a good thing.
The entire atmosphere is toxic. And when people on the other side, or on neither side, say that, the response is to dismiss it as illegitimate or make a sarcastic jibe. Always. There is a fundamental intolerance to that notion.
There's a lot of words in that article but it doesn't actually say much apart from subsidizing fishermen that will no longer have an income, is that preparation. "This includes checks and controls for customs", In Holland they tried to find 1000 new people to cope with these checks, they got 500 applicants. Basically is vague, very EU like.
Well let's take those main mentioned answers
Reduced immigration.
All evidence so far points to this not happening
Not having to send money to the EU.
True, but you'll also lose a hell of a lot of money by being out of the EU, a lot more than what you put in, this is based on hard economic facts.
Less EU regulation and standardisation.
The UK has already said they plan to keep EU laws in place post Brexit so.. not true.
Increased trade with the rest of the world.
Unlikely. The EU already has trade deals with the world's biggest economies, better ones than the UK would likely get going it alone, but we all know this
Increased sovereignty.
Highly debatable, what sovereignty has the EU actually taken away?
Increased British exceptionalism and nationalism.
Well yeah, but .. is that really a good thing, going by the last 2 and a half years?
The main problem will all of the above is that if you just talk about them in isolation they all sound great, but when you actually compare them to what the UK has at this moment in time by being in the EU, they all look like much worse options for the UK.
If you do, I'd love to see how much of that evidence is accompanied by initial hostility on the part of the non-Remain voter.
I mean, your posts today came in light of Josep's initial post which can not be described as anything other than bellicose. If that gets peoples backs up is that any surprise?
But you calling everyone ignorant is fine. Congratulations.
Is it really though? Where did the expectation that discourse between people with different ideologies would be friction free come from? Also this sentiment seems to be getting pushed by the same people that are complaining about free speech and outrage culture... To me it just feels artificial and exaggerated at times.
You often hear people complaining about the intolerance/abuse/etc, but then you dig deeper, look over the preceding discussion, and it amounts to nothing more than someone being challenged on their beliefs by someone who is getting fed up by the whole experience.
Anyway I'll await your examples.
I don't think remainers have to justify anything. We were happy with the status quo, we wanted it to continue, we liked being part of Europe with all the benefits that confers. Personally, I see no negatives at all to being a member of the EU.
I was 17 when we had the last referendum, and although I was just too young to vote I was involved in doorstep canvassing on behalf of the "yes" campaign. I've been European for my whole adult life and now I'm at retirement age, it's being taken away from me.
I'm extremely upset about losing my European citizen status, losing my right to vote for MEPs, losing the freedom to easily travel to and live within European countries. I can't think of another domestic political issue that's had such an impact on the way I feel, and I've been voting for 42 years now.
I was 17 when we had the last referendum, and although I was just too young to vote I was involved in doorstep canvassing on behalf of the "yes" campaign. I've been European for my whole adult life and now I'm at retirement age, it's being taken away from me.
I'm extremely upset about losing my European citizen status, losing my right to vote for MEPs, losing the freedom to easily travel to and live within European countries. I can't think of another domestic political issue that's had such an impact on the way I feel, and I've been voting for 42 years now.
Well said.
Problem is Brexiters can't justify anything and get upset when they make themselves look foolish.
Not really thats the level of stupidity we are dealing with
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Well if the old people die then at least Stratchan will get what he wants. Reduced immigration and euthanasia. Win win.
I wonder if calling him a fascist because he espoused fascist beliefs will make it on to Brwned's list of abuse...
Yup. End of discussion really. We didn’t vote to tip the cart over, they did. And they have either poor answers or no answers depending on what the current questions are. And they cry foul when people point this out.
Yeah that I get but it doesn't sound like leavers are too keen on a backstop, in which case I guess the customs would have to be between the RoI and the EU, and why would the EU/RoI agree to that? Admittedly I haven't thought very long about it.