Well they wouldn't, and I think it would cause so much offence to even ask that even May and her band of fools have been smart enough not to seriously propose it.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
the whole point of the backstop is that there's nothing in NI that would need to be checked, it would effectively stay in the CU/SM by copying all their minimum standards
Hypocrisy at its finest.
Hypocrisy isn't involved here. He basically said that he has the right to tell you something politely, he didn't say that he doesn't have the right to not be polite.
Fair enough, the British press go on about le Pen a lot, maybe they make her out to be more significant than she is. The British far right is pitifully small. Some might say UKIP are far right, they're certainly moving that way, but I suspect once Brexit's sorted they'll fade away.
So we have to put up with them for another twenty years?
Perfectly true but leave was more about emotions; taking back control. Great idea. But taking back control for what purpose.
The leave campaign was a classic. It resonated with peoples emotions. None of it had to be true or correct. That was not the point. The point was to offer some kind of utopian place where Great Britain was again the centre of the world.
All about emotions, with plenty of lies thrown in to make it even more seductive.
And of course over 17million trusting souls fell for it. It was all far too easy.
Now go and make it reality.
I have done my bit. I have voted leave (not me by the way).
Don't bother me with facts. Just make it happen and make it happen NOW.
The Spanish have done stuff to protect their tourist industry and to try and manage the British expats living in Spain.
A lot of it's very mundane stuff designed to get them through the holiday season, like not insisting that UK tourists have an international driving permit as well as their current UK/EU version photo licence. They've also promised to maintain the current EHIC - emergency medical cover scheme for tourists. Basically a bunch of things done to get us through a few months of no-deal without killing their tourist industry or turning their hospitals into financial gatekeepers.
For residents it's to give the changeover time longer - easier to convert UK driving licence to Spanish, continuation of current health cover whether that's cover because you're working or paying into the social security or because the UK government has transferred your (pensioner) health cover to Spain. Continuation of current tax arrangements for pensions and other income. Transitional stuff with a time limit set (3 to 12 months on most of it) to give people a chance to regularise their status - or to leave if they realise that they can't.
All with the proviso that the UK must make the same emergency reciprocal agreements to protect Spanish nationals in the UK.
It's not obvious what they'll do if they can't get Spanish strawberries etc into the UK in a timely manner or how they'll handle Gibraltar etc - basically they're just delaying the cliff edge and hoping that we'll do the same.
"Well lets post the bits I like in the redcafe"
What did you think of the wine sellers opinion? You know, an actual businessman
May insisted it was UK wide. If and when the backstop ends, off the cliff it is unless the magical solution has been invented by then. So it's permanent.
The funny thing is everyone of those arguments in this very thread have already been proved to be wrong or unattainable even without being in the EU
You haven't read the forum posts I linked to, the guy you quoted has made his own interpretations which is not a true reflection of peoples posts on that site. Who'd have thunk, a remainer not listening to anyone but himself
I've no doubt thats true in some cases, and untrue in others. Every Leave voter in here that I've seen has said things that can only ever be antagonistic. Sometimes that was in response to people belittling them, sometimes it wasn't. I don't think either fault is solely to blame for this specific issue. I think both are unwilling to take responsibility for it, on the whole, and many people on both sides don't give a feck. The demonisation of the other has been very effective so tolerating the other side is now thought to be a dangerous thing, by a significant portion of people on both extremes of the political spectrum, and quite a few people on either side of the centre.
I think the vast majority of people in here are not ignorant. Many are more tolerant than my average friend or family member. Care to apologise for misrepresenting my view?
I don't think it should be friction free but I think it would be more constructive if the condescension was less prevalent, and the personal attacks were much less frequent.
I'm not part of that bubble that complains about free speech and engages in outrage culture. I think many of those things are as ridiculous as you do. This is just my opinion based on my very limited experience of political discussion in here. It's up to you whether you want to perceive that as part of a wider agenda, fuelled by outrage culture, or whether you just take it at face value as my opinion.
Maybe some of the things that I think are oppressive to the other side, and unconstructive, you think are just people acting fed up by illogical arguments. To be the two are not mutually exclusive. The fact one causes the other, neither justifies the other nor makes it constructive. I don't think my opinion is right, it's just a perception of a complicated issue.
To me it's problematic that people are so confident that their opinion is the right one, on issues that don't have an obvious solution. Going into an argument trying to prove you're right makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion.
For example, the post above from Paul is obviously him being fed up of people like me having a different opinion to people like him. I can live with that. However how he chooses to deal with that causes people who hold a different opinion to be less vocal, simply because it's not a discussion that seems worth getting involved in. It is not oppressive - I will give actual examples of that - but it's not constructive either. And it's not designed to be.
People recognise that and understand the message it communicates. It doesn't bother people on Paul's side but it does bother people who aren't on his side. That's the stuff that barely enters your radar because you sympathise with the sentiment, even if you wouldn't express the point in that way.
Another 61 votes on May's deal is a distinct possibility.What are you on about? Those are literally the bullet points at the top, not Caf related.
You mean this guy?
That's all utter bollox.
It isn't oppressive, it is just a really hard environment for leavers as they have no compelling counter arguments. Reckon there is a bunch of them lurking, just hiding in the closet.
Yep, it was. Problem is a lot of leave voters are in complete denial of this and are instead trying to use other forms of argument, which always fall flat. We've seen it on here time and time again.
What a fecking idiot!
"I am going to go out of business if I don't get seasonal workers from Europe. I voted not to be able to get seasonal workers from Europe."
And brexiters wonder why they look like idiots when having a conversation about brexit
You haven't called me ignorant yet, this is true , but criticising other people is equally as toxic and condescending as anyone else - according to search 87 times on the site but I'm not going to list them.
People are entitled to different views.
It would be better that they justify their arguments when questioned. Some people are more aggressive than others and ruder but this is life, which is why I have never put anyone on ignore nor have I ever reported anyone. Although several people have been banned for being insulting or aggressive to me.
People sometimes lose their temper because having asked on numerous occasions but they never get a straight answer.
Has anything actually happened today?
Exactly. It's hard to keep track and not conflate brexit issue and people call each other out in here all the time mostly between us remainers. It's only leavers who take issue with it.
I don't see how it makes one bit of difference if you're a leaver or remainer when discussing things like the irish border, CU, Norway +.
This is it though, all the arguments given by leavers can be swotted away quite easily, even those based on pure economic factors rather than xenophobic ones.
My brother was going on about European legislation and Europe telling the UK what it can and cannot do. It was simply countered by the fact that if the UK still wants to sell into Europe, which it will need to, then we will have to follow European regulations anyway. If we are in Europe, we in a position to shape the legislation, so we actually have more control, not less, inside the EU.
Same here, though, unlike you, I didn't even realise how much I loved being part of Europe until Brexit. It is a bit more than losing the opportunities to be part of the EU. I feel like Brexit has destroyed the perception I had of British people and the UK in general. My area voted leave by a significant margin. Now I look at my neighbours and wonder what sort of people they really are.
This should make captain euthanasia happy. Reduced immigration and reduced old people in one neat package.
I think both are true. It takes particularly thick skin to argue that leaving the EU will reduce immigration, without the evidence to support it. So people who do not have thick skin but have that as one of their primary reasons for leaving will choose not to get involved. I think there are some people who have more substantive reasons for leaving but just do not get involved because, from my perspective at least, it is an oppressive atmosphere to people with their viewpoint. That is in part generated by people.on the Leave side putting forward arguments that do not fit the facts, but that doesn't change the fact that it now exists, IMO.
I don't know you very well but my instinct is you are not ignorant. I don't think criticising other people for how they communicate their views is toxic, perfectly. That's too extreme. But yes I can understand why criticism fuels wider frustration and I'm happy to accept that I have done nothing to solve that problem.
You not being able to read and understand things properly doesn't make something else vague.
Countries within the EU have written new legislation, created new positions in potentially affected areas, published information packs and created websites to assist their people and businesses in the event of a no deal Brexit. Since the very beginning they have been consistent and coherent in their stance and preparations.
You call it "a lot of words" which leads me to suspect you don't understand what plans are? Why would EU members make concrete changes while they're still totally in the dark over what it is Britain actually want or will end up doing? Until Britain has sorted out its own shit show, plans will obviously only be words.
There is one party to Brexit which has been vague, incoherent, muddled and inconsistent and it isn't any EU member.
Said it already on here but post Brexit (and the accompanying arguements) I've been suspicious and on edge too... Wondering what a person is really thinking and what their motives may really be.
Which obviously manifests itself in here in my interactions with posters and in real life in my day to day. Bit of a wake up call tbh.... So... Thanks I guess.
Agreed - it's just so convenient when you're on your travels within Europe - will be such a shame to lose it.
Obviously more than just that, the economic reasons too, but for that reason alone, I will miss it.
That's just how I feel, to the extent that we don't want to live in the UK anymore. We had no intention of becoming Italian residents before Brexit, but now we have Italian ID cards and we're at the point of going back to England in a month or so and getting our house ready for sale. I don't really want to go back at all, I feel completely estranged from my own country.
We're lucky to be able to escape.
What a fecking plank.
I at least have a shred of respect that as a farmer he probably knows a bit about the EU, which is something more than most people. Like many though he's shot himself in the foot. Muppet.
Well said and entirely true.
Not to be rude but as foreigner living over here for the past 15 years, it was pretty clear that once the UK had a referendum people were going to vote to leave.
To me anyway it was far more shocking that people thought it couldn't happened.
Although I do think the Brexit divide stuff is completely overdone. Hardly anyone I know or talked to since the referendum result cares about brexit, I remember a whole group of us (leave voters and remain voters) were talking about Brexit and within a couple of minutes we all got very bored and talked about the snooker on the telly.
It's hardly mad max over here.
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Well I guess we differ in what we consider oppressive. I would consider it oppressive if leavers were not allowed to put forward their arguments. But they can put forward any argument they wish; it is just that their arguments do not stand up to scrutiny very well. So the majority of them just moan about being insulted; or don't bother posting having seen similar arguments to their own taken down.
Redcafe is left-leaning, but I think pretty good at giving good arguments a fair hearing. I think if there are some, even marginally, meritorious arguments for Brexit, the forum will give them due respect. I just haven't come across many, yet.
Just to update, the well educated and firmly middle class colleague with mildly racist tendencies I know, who told me he didn't know why he voted Brexit at the time of the referendum, but when pushed as to why anyone would do that came out with a story about a fisherman having to repackage his fish because of EU regulations, still stands firmly by his decision and believes "we should just get fecking out and be done with it".
If that ain't idiocy I dunno what is.
If that ain't idiocy I dunno what is.
I accept his comments regarding his own self-interest - which I understand, though actually multiple grape varieties and naming systems are in place across Europe and the only reason he can't get his voice heard is that grape-growing in the UK is too small a business area to get UK agricultural officials to argue for further local provisions.
However his 4% tariff worry is neither here nor there when faced with actual "WTO terms" reality. Lamb, for example, going to the EU on WTO attracts tariffs starting at 40%, unless (like Iceland, Australia, New Zealand etc) you have a trade agreement with the EU that brings that it down to zero for most of the trade.
Cars entering the EU attract a tariff of 10%, so let's convert that to a (free trade with the US - that we pay for in some other way) model that gives us cheaper Teslas. That's nice but is that actually an advantage for the people working in a Japanese company building cars in the UK for export to Europe and using components from all over Europe. The idea that we trade more with the countries outside the EU is based largely on services and on goods that use the UK as a gateway to Europe.
Very few people will get economic benefits from Brexit and most of them are people with the majority of their financial and business interests based overseas.
Oh dear...
That's really fecking bad. If they'd stick to their guns or not given the situation we might all find ourselves in is another matter but the idea of get out and sort it later looks even more foolishBarnier said:
There is a lack of tolerance but, at the end of the day, if one side is proposing hugely disruptive changes, the onus is on that side to justify the decision rather than the side in favour of the status quo. Unfortunately, aside from that tiny percentage of Leavers who are extreme free market ideologues and want to have a bonfire of regulations, in the last three years I have yet to hear any logically compelling argument for Brexit. It’s a mixture of people with genuine grievances lashing out at the wrong target combined with old folk bemoaning the fact that life used to be much simpler.