[Stacks]

You have used per game stats when Martial played many games as a sub. Use per 90 mins stats and th results will be lot closer.

You'll have to explain to me if per 90 minutes who games completed start to finish or what? I don't know their criteria. If you are in a competitive squad e.g. a striker playing for United in 99, chances are you will make good contribution then get subbed off for rotation purposes. The per 90 minutes completed, would that not exclude all the goals you scored before you were subbed? And surely super subs appear as the best players in the world by per 90 metrics? Per game is fair IMO because you are sub for a reason (you haven't done enough to hold down a place).

An impact sub who has a smaller sample size of having completed an entire 90 minutes in one slot, can also have skewed stats no, making them appear more productive?

 

[roonster09]

You'll have to explain to me if per 90 minutes who games completed start to finish or what? I don't know their criteria. If you are in a competitive squad e.g. a striker playing for United in 99, chances are you will make good contribution then get subbed off for rotation purposes. The per 90 minutes completed, would that not exclude all the goals you scored before you were subbed? And surely super subs appear as the best players in the world by per 90 metrics? Per game is fair IMO because you are sub for a reason (you haven't done enough to hold down a place)

How is per game fair when Martial played 66% mins. He played 27 games which is equivalent to 2400 mins but he played only 1600 mins. Now you are calculating his stats based on 2400 mins.

And no it's not the only reason, you can lose your position for many number of reasons, when Lukaku was stinking up the place, he was still a regular starter, doesn't mean he did well to hold down his place. Rashford who wasn't regular under Jose was first name of team sheet kind of player under Ole.

If you want to calculate based who completed games then you will have dig in and do bit of manual work to see the stats for the game he started and excluding the games where he came on as a sub.

 

[Stacks]

How is per game fair when Martial played 66% mins. He played 27 games which is equivalent to 2400 mins but he played only 1600 mins. Now you are calculating his stats based on 2400 mins.

And no it's not the only reason, you can lose your position for many number of reasons, when Lukaku was stinking up the place, he was still a regular starter, doesn't mean he did well to hold down his place. Rashford who wasn't regular under Jose was first name of team sheet kind of player under Ole.

If you want to calculate based who completed games then you will have dig in and do bit of manual work to see the stats for the game he started and excluding the games where he came on as a sub.

Some of the stats were an average per game. As in your average contribution not your total number, which of course would favour those with more minutes. The most fair comparison would be based off of your contribution when you start games.

 

[VP89]

Don't really need stats to know how sub par Martials general play has been.

 

[roonster09]

Some of the stats were an average per game. As in your average contribution not your total number, which of course would favour those with more minutes. The most fair comparison would be based off of your contribution when you start games.

Yes and we don't have stats for that. The one you posted was average per game which is unfair for player who played many games as a sub.

Hopefully he will improve his game off the ball work (including work rate, making runs), in which case he will be a big threat with his on the ball ability.

 

[JPRouve]

You'll have to explain to me if per 90 minutes who games completed start to finish or what? I don't know their criteria. If you are in a competitive squad e.g. a striker playing for United in 99, chances are you will make good contribution then get subbed off for rotation purposes. The per 90 minutes completed, would that not exclude all the goals you scored before you were subbed? And surely super subs appear as the best players in the world by per 90 metrics? Per game is fair IMO because you are sub for a reason (you haven't done enough to hold down a place).

An impact sub who has a smaller sample size of having completed an entire 90 minutes in one slot, can also have skewed stats no, making them appear more productive?

Your point isn't unfair but in that case you can't use stats as comparative tools at the exception of minutes played. Every other stats become useless.

 

[haram]

You don't have a proper response because you know its true.

 

[roonster09]

You don't have a proper response because you know its true.

Somehow I'm having discussion with other posters, with good points being made from either side.

What I know for sure is, your posts on Martial are hilariously bad and lacks content.

 

[haram]

Genuinely though, why are you so obsessed with him? It’s a bit weird, the season hasn’t even started and you already have the most posts in this thread, especially because you’re always in the Lingard and Rashford threads defending them, yet you jump at any opportunity to criticise Martial.
And who’s everyone? Read through this thread, it’s mostly criticism, I genuinely don’t think you’d be happy until he’s hounded out of the club.

I make posts and people reply. If people are going to make shit up and make more excuses for him, I’m going to call it out. Only now are people starting to really criticise him on here, and in general people still defend him as if he is performing like he did in his debut season.

 

[haram]

Somehow I'm having discussion with other posters, with good points being made from either side.

What I know for sure is, your posts on Martial are hilariously bad and lacks content.

Hilariously bad and lacks content but what I have been saying for ages is what people are starting to realise now. What’s hilarious is that people are still finding new excuses for him.

Again though, you know what I said was true and you dodged it again.

 

[R'hllor]

I hate him appropriately. He has not improved since joining and he isn’t as good as everyone says he is. If people cant handle that, that’s their problem.

 

[roonster09]

Hilariously bad and lacks content but what I have been saying for ages is what people are starting to realise now. What’s hilarious is that people are still finding new excuses for him.

Again though, you know what I said was true and you dodged it again.

Dodged what?

 

[haram]

Dodged what?

He is not as good as everyone says he is and has not improved since his debut season. It’s not even a controversial statement at this point.

 

[roonster09]

He is not as good as everyone says he is and has not improved since his debut season. It’s not even a controversial statement at this point.

He is lot better than how you rate him, that's for sure.

 

[haram]

He is lot better than how you rate him, that's for sure.

So you agree with what I said, cool.

 

[roonster09]

So you agree with what I said, cool.

No, I don't. I don't even know what your point is anymore. I never denied he should improve his work rate, off the ball movement but at least I can see what he brings to the team. I made so many posts on him saying the same.

On the other hand, you are exact opposite of Martial FC. They can't see any problem in his game and you can't see any positives in his game.

 

[haram]

No, I don't. I don't even know what your point is anymore. I never denied he should improve his work rate, off the ball movement but at least I can see what he brings to the team. I made so many posts on him saying the same.

On the other hand, you are exact opposite of Martial FC. They can't see any problem in his game and you can't see any positives in his game.

I can see positives in his game and have mentioned them before. His ball control and dribbling 1v1 is very good for example.

If you don't agree that he hasn’t improved since his debut season and isn’t as good as everyone made out, at this point you just might be deluded.

 

[R'hllor]

No, I don't. I don't even know what your point is anymore. I never denied he should improve his work rate, off the ball movement but at least I can see what he brings to the team. I made so many posts on him saying the same.

On the other hand, you are exact opposite of Martial FC. They can't see any problem in his game and you can't see any positives in his game.

You wasting your time, root of his hate for Martial has nothing to do with player himself.

 

[haram]

You wasting your time, root of his hate for Martial has nothing to do with player himself.

It’s not hate it’s criticism. I have no idea what you’re even talking about but ok.

 

[roonster09]

I can see positives in his game and have mentioned them before. His ball control and dribbling 1v1 is very good for example.

If you don't agree that he hasn’t improved since his debut season and isn’t as good as everyone made out, at this point you just might be deluded.

I rate him appropriately. He has not improved since joining and he isn’t as good as everyone says he is. If people cant handle that, that’s their problem.

I laughed at this post and you are deluded if you believe what you wrote.

 

[roonster09]

You wasting your time, root of his hate for Martial has nothing to do with player himself.

It's obvious and there is a good pattern too.

 

[R'hllor]

It’s not hate it’s criticism. I have no idea what you’re even talking about but ok.

Sure thing. You and your comrades will never forgive him for what he was. Funny how in the same time you blindly defend a guy who cant trap a ball to save his life to the hilt, guess " you are grown ass man, deal with it " line makes a huge difference. He is also on his way out, so that might be 2 out of 2 for you.

 

[haram]

I laughed at this post and you are deluded if you believe what you wrote.

He isn’t as good as everyone made out. Not even controversial to say this in 2019.

 

[haram]

Sure thing. You and your comrades will never forgive him for what he was. Funny how in the same time you blindly defend a guy who cant trap a ball to save his life to the hilt, guess " you are grown ass man, deal with it " line makes a huge difference. He is also on his way out, so that might be 2 out of 2 for you.

Yeah I still don't get what you mean but ok.

 

[Andersons Dietician]

No, I don't. I don't even know what your point is anymore. I never denied he should improve his work rate, off the ball movement but at least I can see what he brings to the team. I made so many posts on him saying the same.

On the other hand, you are exact opposite of Martial FC. They can't see any problem in his game and you can't see any positives in his game.

Trust me Roonster the best thing to do is put him on Ignore. I did it last year and have found that it makes this thread so much better as you can at least have semi decent conversations with people that can be objective and see faults and positives in his game.

However I think even His most ardent supporters will agree more workrate or intensity would be better and i’d Personally like to see him be more selfish and also make more runs to the posts.

 

[R'hllor]

Yeah I still don't get what you mean but ok.

Aha

 

[Adisa]

Great that Ole says he's come back in good condition and his attitude is spot on. We just have to accept that he will always be a player that plays in bursts.

 

[haram]

Trust me Roonster the best thing to do is put him on Ignore. I did it last year and have found that it makes this thread so much better as you can at least have semi decent conversations with people that can be objective and see faults and positives in his game.

However I think even His most ardent supporters will agree more workrate or intensity would be better and i’d Personally like to see him be more selfish and also make more runs to the posts.

Supports: Supports good football

 

[roonster09]

He isn’t as good as everyone made out. Not even controversial to say this in 2019.

And you rate him appropriately

 

[haram]

And you rate him appropriately

Well he isn’t as good as everyone made out so yeah.

 

[roonster09]

Trust me Roonster the best thing to do is put him on Ignore. I did it last year and have found that it makes this thread so much better as you can at least have semi decent conversations with people that can be objective and see faults and positives in his game.

However I think even His most ardent supporters will agree more workrate or intensity would be better and i’d Personally like to see him be more selfish and also make more runs to the posts.

I usually ignore his posts on Martial but sometimes its hard to ignore when the posts screams"me, me, me looks how awesome I'm".

Yeah, he should be more selfish and also shoot more. He has all the attributes needed and the points where he needs improvement is something that can be improved upon. I remember posts by @JPRouve saying Martial played as striker (or centrally) when he was at Monaco, including his youth days. So can understand why the movement from wings is not natural for him. He needs time and hopefully something Ole can help him in that.

Work rate is something that should be improved. Also Ole's PC sounded good on Martial. Hopefully he really meant it.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[R'hllor]

Well he isn’t as good as everyone made out so yeah.

Everyone? Yea, nah. No where to hide, people can see right through you.

 

[haram]

Everyone? Yea, nah. No where to hide, people can see right through you.

What?

 

[Andersons Dietician]

I usually ignore his posts on Martial but sometimes its hard to ignore when the posts screas "me, me, me looks how awesome I'm".

Yeah, he should be more selfish and also shoot more. He has all the attributes needed and the points where he needs improve is something that can be improved upon. I remember posts by @JPRouve saying Martial played as striker (or centrally) when he was at Monaco, including his youth days. So can understand why the movement from wings is not natural for him. He needs time and hopefully something Ole can help him in that.

Work rate is something that should be improved. Also Ole's PC sounded good on Martial. Hopefully he really meant it.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

I haven’t seen the press conference yet but I’ll go have a listen.

I think it was maybe the previous year or last year where he had only taken something like 14 shots at goal. Whatever the number it was stupidly low and for me sometimes he passes when he should be taking a shot on. I mean his two goals from the 18 yarder against Everton show he can finish and for me one of his best goals was I think against Forest where he has to shift the ball twice and lifts it in to the top of the net. That goal showed he has awareness under pressure and knows how to finish for me.

Hoping with Ole teaching he and Rashford they can both push on and Martial mixes his runs up a lot more as personally I think it’s between he and Pogba for probably the most gifted of players we have but it’s what he does with that that needs to improve.

I think it’s worth noting that when Martial was coming through at Monaco wouldn’t Berba have been his main example of a striker. Maybe goes someway to explain the lackadaisical way in which he plays

(before someone takes that comment serious and adds it to their list of manufactured list of Martial FC excuses it’s a joke)

On that user, I get what you mean. I’m pretty sure he used to be on TalkingReds under the name of 7isthemagicnumber.

 

[Raven]

Like I said in previous post, you used per game which skews the stats as Martial was sub in many games.

Per 90 mins stats (Shots per game)
Salah - 4.8
Sterling - 2.5
Martial 2.2



Dribbles per 90 mins
Martial - 1.8 (50% success rate)
Salah - 1.5 (45% success rate)
Sterling - 2.7 (55% success rate)



Goals from open play
Salah - 19 - 171 mins per goal
Martial - 9 - 180 mins per goal
Sterling - 17 - 163 mins per goal
Hazard - 12 - 243 mins per goal

Chances created per 90 mins
Martial - 2
Salah - 1.9
Sterling - 2.1
Hazard - 3

Martial played 50% of the mins Salah played, so you can calculate crosses/through balls/big changes by multiplying by 2 and around 1.7.



What is looks like is, you have just misused stats without taking mins player into consideration, strength of the teams they played in and most importantly you have compared Martial to the best players (arguable best 3 players) in the league and trying to draw some conclusions based on that. If you compare any player to the best players, their stats won't look good.



He takes as many shots as Sterling per 90 mins and 1 less than Hazard. Problem is not Martial's ability on the ball, it's what he does off the ball and that's where he should improve big time.

He won't score 25 goals and then
Hazard never scored more than 22 in a season and he takes shit loads of penalties
Salah didn't score 25 goals from open play, he scored 25+ goals once in his career
Sterling scored 25 goals for the first time in his career
Sane never scored 25 goals in his career
Gareth Bale scored once in his career.
Robben never scored 25 goals in his career
Ribery never scored
Mane scored once last season and he scored couple of penalties, otherwise even he would have been in 'never scored' category
Son never scored


How many wingers even score 25 goals except Messi and Ronaldo (who don't even have fix position)

Problem is his off the ball work and your expectations. Comparing him to the best players and saying he is falling short or saying he won't score 25 goals when most wingers don't score as many goals.

He has weakness, there is no argument on that from myside. He isn't aggressive and his work rate is not good enough but on the ball he is good and his numbers are very good.

Excellent post, I knew something was amiss with the other lost.

 

[roonster09]

I haven’t seen the press conference yet but I’ll go have a listen.

I think it was maybe the previous year or last year where he had only taken something like 14 shots at goal. Whatever the number it was stupidly low and for me sometimes he passes when he should be taking a shot on. I mean his two goals from the 18 yarder against Everton show he can finish and for me one of his best goals was I think against Forest where he has to shift the ball twice and lifts it in to the top of the net. That goal showed he has awareness under pressure and knows how to finish for me.

Hoping with Ole teaching he and Rashford they can both push on and Martial mixes his runs up a lot more as personally I think it’s between he and Pogba for probably the most gifted of players we have but it’s what he does with that that needs to improve.

I think it’s worth noting that when Martial was coming through at Monaco wouldn’t Berba have been his main example of a striker. Maybe goes someway to explain the lackadaisical way in which he plays

(before someone takes that comment serious and adds it to their list of manufactured list of Martial FC excuses it’s a joke)

On that user, I get what you mean. I’m pretty sure he used to be on TalkingReds under the name of 7isthemagicnumber.

I have added his quotes on Martial in other post.

He is gifted player for sure, just needs to have that intensity to take his game to next level. This season our attack completely depends on him and Rashford. It's a huge show of trust and confidence on these 2 players by the club. Huge contracts and looks very likely first choice players in the team. Hopefully they both will step up this season.

 

[haram]

On that user, I get what you mean. I’m pretty sure he used to be on TalkingReds under the name of 7isthemagicnumber.

If you’re referring to me, this is the only Manchester United forum I have been a part of.

 

[Raven]

He isn’t as good as everyone made out. Not even controversial to say this in 2019.

People in this thread are trying to have a reasonable debate, and you're literally ruining it with you childish approach.

Give it a rest, your fecking boring.

 

[haram]

People in this thread are trying to have a reasonable debate, and you're literally ruining it with you childish approach.

Give it a rest, your fecking boring.

Don't see what’s childish about what I said but ok.

 

[JPRouve]

By the way, I want it on record that I criticized Martial's lack of improvement before Haram even joined the board. People were mean to me when I did.