Respect for who?!His average rating above is 5.6 (and I haven’t even voted out of respect) so it probably would be his best so far..........
6
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 22
- Goals
- 1
- Assists
- 4
- Yellow cards
- 2
- Status
Some people might say I’m biased so I haven’t voted so respect for the vote
We did from the highlights I saw but even so what's the difference from when he is playing, we still dont create much as a team in general under Ole for the past 6-7 months
From the highlights? Apart from Matas chance there wasn't much else.
Even on the extended highlights these Pogba chances are not even included from what I can find. Do you have the extended extended highlights that might show these great chances everyone is missing?
They do show the other McT one though, doesn’t surprise me that it rated fairly high because he receives the ball in behind the defenders, he should take a touch but decides to volley and balloons it, it’s poor from him but the chance would be 0.25 or something I’d guess, so a 1 in 4.
Look through my posting history and I’m sure you’ll find an abundance of such posts. His stats were amazing in that brief spell last season and have been good in nearly all seasons he’s been here. He is our key creative force at the moment, that was obvious against Leicester when our none penalty xG was pitiful
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
That was Lindelof, my error. McT’s 2nd was a cross to AWB that he ballooned on the volley.
Last edited:
Indeed hence why his xA was high as it put Rashford in to score
Tbf is that much different than most matches even when pogba starts, we aren't the most creative team in general, he's barely any better than veron or di Maria in terms of consistency and effectiveness on the pitch for the club.
You can find them in BBC MOTD, they showed them when the pundit & Jenas were talking about Vestergaard’s performance & our chances.
It reminds me of the divide over Rooney towards the end of his career - to some it didn't seem to register or matter how bad he was because, well, he was Rooney.
It's a very odd recent phenomenon, some "fans" seem to be fans of certain players first and Utd second. I don't believe anyone who regularly watched Robson, Keane, Scholes etc. can watch Pogba and think he has the consistent quality and strength of character who is worth building a team around. I also don't remember similar outcries over losing "key" players like Ince, Stam, even Becks or Ruud, as we see with the possibility of losing Pogba. It's bizarre.
I guess the problem there on a subjective basis is that Jenas’s section is a withering assessment on how we created no good chances. He supports you a little on a subjective basis but I’d contest his assertion that those Rashford chances were the best. They are played into low probability scoring areas wide of the goal, which is backed up by the xA. The tighter the angle becomes the harder it is for the forward to score and the easier it is for the keeper, it’s geometry. Not only that but there is a defending player that is positioned well enough to block the shot, on one occasion he manages to and on the other he doesn’t but it’s an easy save for the keeper. The Lindelof chance is the biggest statistically because at one point Rashford is through on the keeper. The Wan Bissaka volley is a bigger chance because he too is in front of the last defenders.
That's not the point isn't it? What Jenas said is an opinion for overall in United's game not assessment.
If you are insisting using Jenas's opinion to back up your statement then it's basically weakened your other statement of questioning my "football qualification". Ole has much much higher football qualification than Jenas to have more sense of comment that we created chances but not being clinical.
The tighter the angle becomes the harder it is for the forward to score and the easier it is for the keeper, it’s geometry
It's easy to say that without having a good understanding of the game just like xA incapable to involve the opposition player's into consideration of the event.
What about give some credit to Southampton defenders especially Vestergaard who had one of his best game of the day by not giving Rashford any space & able to read the game & the pass very well. Ironically BBC & others are giving Vestegaard a lot of credits in that game. For similar example, the reason why Leicester not able to create enough good chances against us not because they were poor but because our defense performed very well & force them not creating good chances.
The Lindelof chance is the biggest statistically because at one point Rashford is through on the keeper.
According to Jenas Rashford was in offside position, so that went in, it would be disallowed. So not sure why xA didn't take this into consideration.
The Wan Bissaka volley is a bigger chance because he too is in front of the last defenders.
It was a good chance but he missed because Southampton defenders didn't give enough time to take the touch, Bissaka was forced to take a first time shot. A top players might be able to score from that chance, same goes with other chances, top players utilise Rashford's chance much better.
The flag was not raised so the stat cannot predict that it would have been disallowed. The ref also didn't blow up when Rashford went for goal.
Yes but the end result is the goal won't be counted. Player is up ahead of the opposition defenders and the ball went through easily to Rashford. While other chances, look worse because Southampton being very solid in defense in that game, for very obvious example that Vestegaard didn't give Rashford any space & able to read the game well.
You don't know that is the point. It cannot preempt VAR there was no indication he would be given offside in the game
That's why the point is that stats should be only used to support the assessment not to conclude the assessment. At the end of the day we still need to rely our eyes to make the decision. The tech has limit with lack of understanding of the game's situation.
Fair enough, I'll give credit to Vestegaard but how does that support your assertion that Rashford was making Pogba look bad and should have scored?
The tighter the angle becomes the harder it is for the forward to score and the easier it is for the keeper, it’s geometry
Sorry but this is a fact, the wider the ball goes the harder it is to score. It is what it is. xG does factor in the situational play including where the other players were, hence why Pogba's chances were so low because there were covering defenders. There may be blind spots as the model develops but where the shot is taken from is only one of the factors. It considers many other variables. As I have said before, it bases an average on how other similar chances have played out.
It was a good chance but he missed because Southampton defenders didn't give enough time to take the touch
It wasn't a good chance though, it was a low probability chance like the ones Pogba created. I think the problem here is that you overestimate the quality of chances because your memory remembers goals scored more than the far FAR greater number chances that are missed in games (and by 'top' forwards)
A top players might be able to score from that chance, same goes with other chances, top players utilise Rashford's chance much better.
Have a look at xG stats and you'll see that most 'top' forwards don't actually significantly outperform the average on a consistent basis, apart from Messi. Ronaldo doesn't outperform the average at all. The margins are a lot finer than you appear to think. I will concede that some players are better in certain situations, Aguero is great from tight angles (only relatively, he still misses the majority of attempts like that) Messi is great from distance (only relatively, he still misses the vast majority of shots that he takes). Rashford isn't a top striker no argument but I don't feel your original assertion that he cost Pogba some deserved assists is in any way true. But yes a better player in those situations would have a better chance of scoring but it wouldn't have made the chances 'big'. It's fairer to say that if we had the best player there is in each of those given situations then the chances of scoring would have been higher but not significantly so. Which goes back to my point of the hyping up of Pogba's chances and criticism of Rashford is unwarranted.
That's not the point isn't it?
It kind of is the point, you are trying to champion your subjective opinion in assessing those chances whilst I'm saying that subjective opinion is very badly flawed because of the biases that we watch the game with. Ole is a case in point, of course he has to pretend that we played well to keep spirits up. Less involved observers look at that game and see that we didn't create good chances, more a number of low quality ones. The data backs that up. I think most United fans would agree that we just don't create enough good chances in general.
I shouldn't have questioned your 'football qualifications', the was puerile of me. Apologies.
love this
We saw them sitting at the game together last night too, I really think Evra being here could be a great positive influence for him.
He clearly likes and trusts him, and sees him as a role model. I really do think with Evra being a positive person in his ear and showing how much he still loves the club, it'll help keep Pogba motivated and happy at the club.
With Madrid being pretty poor to start with also, he might just stay
And how does that support your assertion that Pogba's pass was bad if you give credit to Vestegaard? For the situation, Pogba was forced to pass it like that, if the ball went straight to Rashford's feet, he will be under pressure behind his back by Vestegaard and might end up losing the ball.
The ball went in the direction so Vestegaard can't get into the ball before Rashford. It would be up to Rashford to find a way to shake Vestegaard away because the moment Rashford got the ball in the penalty box area, Vestegaard needs to be careful not to give away penalty. Rashford should have take advantage in that situation to make better outcome.
You don't even remember that bold mark is your own quote and your own statement not mine. I never say that it's not true that the wider the ball goes the harder it is to score. You are just ignoring the point is that the pass was forced wider due to Vestegaard's defending.I said it already that it's easy to say such a thing without having a good understanding of the game just like xA incapable to put the opposition player's involvement into consideration. Hence why, you can't use xA to conclude your statement, at the end of the day we still need to rely on our eye to conclude the statement.
I saw the clips multiple times during our discussion so not sure why it has something to do with memory. I have already said this, memory has nothing to do with it. As long as there is clip to see the event then we can make the assessment.
I think I have said this from above that Rashford should be taking advantage of the situation he was given the moment he received the ball inside the penalty box. Of course I believe top player would have done better at least in one or two of the chances he received on that day.
It is not the point. The point I mentioned MOTD & Jenas are to tell you where you can watch the clips again. You asked me where, I gave you direction where you can find them for you to watch the clips. And yet, you used it to add more stuffs in the argument/discussion. Jenas has the same opinion as yours, but Ole has the same opinion as mine. You were questioning "football qualification", and there you know which one out of these two have higher one.
He really rubs some people the wrong way doesn't he? This thread is gold
@UNITED ACADEMY
1. I didn't say that the passes were 'bad' I said they were not good or 'big' chances and an expectation that Rashford should score from them is unreasonable and was being used to hype up Pogba's display.
2. For the love of God man, xG DOES factor in the defenders you absolute madman, that's partly why the chances were rated so low because a defender in that position when the pass is played has a good chance of stopping the attempt!!!!!
3. If you believe a better player should have scored then I can't argue with your beliefs.
4. A manager in a post match press conference is the definition of an unreliable narrator.
You described that AWB chance as a 'good chance', it wasn't, he was very unlikely to score from there. I think this is indicative of how you suffer from confirmation bias when assessing these chances. You remember a player, like Aguero or Kane, scoring from similar chances so in your mind that chance becomes 'good', that good players should score from there. What you don't remember is all the many more chance that these players miss that are much higher in number than the ones that they score. I just think you have a non-appreciation of how bias works.
I have things to do today and I think we can both agree that we will not find common ground here. I believe you are dead wrong and you believe I am dead wrong. Its an impasse. Lets move on with our lives.
1. I didn't say that the passes were 'bad' I said they were not good or 'big' chances and an expectation that Rashford should score from them is unreasonable and was being used to hype up Pogba's display.
2. For the love of God man, xG DOES factor in the defenders you absolute madman, that's partly why the chances were rated so low because a defender in that position when the pass is played has a good chance of stopping the attempt!!!!!
3. If you believe a better player should have scored then I can't argue with your beliefs.
4. A manager in a post match press conference is the definition of an unreliable narrator.
You described that AWB chance as a 'good chance', it wasn't, he was very unlikely to score from there. I think this is indicative of how you suffer from confirmation bias when assessing these chances. You remember a player, like Aguero or Kane, scoring from similar chances so in your mind that chance becomes 'good', that good players should score from there. What you don't remember is all the many more chance that these players miss that are much higher in number than the ones that they score. I just think you have a non-appreciation of how bias works.
I have things to do today and I think we can both agree that we will not find common ground here. I believe you are dead wrong and you believe I am dead wrong. Its an impasse. Lets move on with our lives.
Let me rephrase the sentence then.
And how does that support your assertion that Pogba's pass was "not good" if you give credit to Vestegaard? For the situation, Pogba was forced to pass it like that, if the ball went straight to Rashford's feet, he will be under pressure behind his back by Vestegaard and might end up losing the ball.
But you are missing my point that Pogba was forced to pass it like that because Vestegaard was doing his job to prevent us making easy chances for our attackers. What can Pogba do better in that situation? That's why xA is just stats number to used to support the assessment not to used to conclude the assessment.
It was a good quality cross. Big chance, different executor could be a different outcome.
I've been reading the stats discussion the last couple of pages and just want to say that @Classical Mechanic is basically right about everything.
I've never seen a player be so subjected in all my life.He really rubs some people the wrong way doesn't he? This thread is gold
It really shows the power of negative press.
Last post here. The debate wasn't ever if Pogba could have done better with passes, only if the chances were 'big' and if Rashford had cost Pogba a couple of assists.
The Vestegaard point falls down because you can flip it on Pogba and say he could have done better and not made the pass, retained possession and looked for a better option.
Lastly, sorry but the AWB chance was not 'big', volleying a ball coming across you is one of the most difficult techniques in the game if we accept that he couldn't have taken a touch. Funnily enough Auba had a very similar one last from a cross from Chambers, he actually made a bigger mess of it than AWB.
Sometimes i wonder if Cantona played today, how would the press and fans see him? He had seasons of 11, 9, 14, 15 goals; not exactly a goal scoring machine while Shearer was periodically going in to the 30s. Plus there was the swager and the i'm better then everyone else attitude. I guess the main point here is that we are poor as a team and Pogba is the lightning rod for criticism. Had the team been successful, he would probably be just as universally beloved as he was at Juventus and is in France.
Wonder if he can be bothered this weekend?
He's a cnut mate, can't even be bothered to get fit.
Apparently not
He's a cnut mate, can't even be bothered to get fit.
- Do we even know what this injury is as this is about 5 games now and he seems fine when not having to do his job from what I have seen.Yeah, Just a lazy prick..... pretending to be "injured"....cnut.
What's the matter with you? Get a grip please.Apparently not
Someone should be asking Pogba that
Sorry but the original debate has been whether Pogba should be given the credit he deserves of making those 4 key passes or no.
If you don't think it's a good pass then surely there is a reason that you can explain as alternative to make it better pass. If that pass was the only way to breakthrough the Southampton's defense then Pogba is not in fault of making the pass wider. He was forced to make the pass, and still able to deliver the ball to Rashford & James in the penalty box area. The rest will be up to the executor.
The cross was good, if the executor was Rooney or RVP it might be different outcome. If AWB in a better position, he could be heading the ball towards the goal. It was a big chance with a good cross, just unfortunate that AWB is the one who execute it & not in the right position.
Stays, goes, I honestly couldn't care less after the circus him and his agent initiated this summer. I really like his always happy smiling personality, seems like a good bloke but he isn't a professional in my eyes. He is way too affected by things going around him. Not to be relied upon.
I agree, the quality of chances were not good.
I personally think we should have let Pogba go in the summer and brought in 2 midfielders that will give their all every game. Hope this happens in January and we are able to bring in 2 top players. Negotiations should be going on now.
You think after the shambles of this summer we are going to do mega deals in the January window? Where do people get these ideas from? I know some are desperate but it ain’t t gonna happen. I’d like to be wrong I really would but the Glazers are not suddenly gonna give up the keys to that war chest.
Pogba gives his all. Don't listen to the media bs and youtubers that promote drama for views. From the manager to the people close to him like Evra, everyone has only positive things to say.
He is also here to stay and probably sign a new contract.
Jesus, I was hoping there was more to come.
- Status