Westminster Politics

finneh

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Ekkie Thump said:
That's only even partially true if you believe that Amazon stimulates a greater demand and increases the size of the overall workforce. If Amazon crowds out other companies by paying lower corporation tax it obviously doesn't pay far more in VAT, fuel duties, NI, employent PAYE than those it surplants - it simply replaces them.
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I think unless you're arguing that there exists a perfect system of collecting corporation tax that no country has yet discovered then it's somewhat irrelevant.

In the world we live the companies who're most successful survive and grow and the ones who aren't do not. The ones that grow by definition will pay more tax. The ones that die will inevitably pay less and then none. In the current system we (or anyone else) operate within Amazon are paying huge amounts of tax whilst doing whatever needs to be done to stay competitive and ahead of the curve,

Of course the government would be better of abolishing the taxes that can't be equitably collected (e.g. corporation tax) in favour or taxes that can be equitably collected (luxury goods tax); but we can't blame Amazon for that. If consumers really believed that Amazon needed to pay more tax they would:

a) Not buy from Amazon; or
b) Pass on the savings that Amazon give to the consumer to the treasury via a donation
 

Abizzz

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Don't know he was better than Redwood spreading illusions from 60 years ago ;)
 

Cheesy

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finneh said:
I think unless you're arguing that there exists a perfect system of collecting corporation tax that no country has yet discovered then it's somewhat irrelevant.

In the world we live the companies who're most successful survive and grow and the ones who aren't do not. The ones that grow by definition will pay more tax. The ones that die will inevitably pay less and then none. In the current system we (or anyone else) operate within Amazon are paying huge amounts of tax whilst doing whatever needs to be done to stay competitive and ahead of the curve,

Of course the government would be better of abolishing the taxes that can't be equitably collected (e.g. corporation tax) in favour or taxes that can be equitably collected (luxury goods tax); but we can't blame Amazon for that. If consumers really believed that Amazon needed to pay more tax they would:

a) Not buy from Amazon; or
b) Pass on the savings that Amazon give to the consumer to the treasury via a donation
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They also find ways to dodge tax which could go towards public services etc in a number of countries, and have a CEO who has amassed obscene wealth while low-level employees work in awful conditions for not that much money. Once a corporation reaches the size of Amazon it's less about innovation and skill because they have so much influence and power they can use their money to influence politicians etc, while stifling competition as well.
 

Abizzz

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Drunk old man lecturing us on respect. (Mr. Cash in parliament, not the poster above)
 

finneh

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Cheesy said:
They also find ways to dodge tax which could go towards public services etc in a number of countries, and have a CEO who has amassed obscene wealth while low-level employees work in awful conditions for not that much money. Once a corporation reaches the size of Amazon it's less about innovation and skill because they have so much influence and power they can use their money to influence politicians etc, while stifling competition as well.
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If a business can dodge tax then it's their obligation to do so to stay competitive. If the next government made income tax somewhat optional they shouldn't be surprised when people don't pay it.

I agree regarding lobbyists, again though that's a governmental issue rather than a business one.
 

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Just as an example of how utterly stupid Parliament has become.

The next step, if Johnson doesn't get the go ahead for a GE tonight, is for the Tory Government to call for a Vote of No Confidence in themseleves.

Just let that sink in...

On the other hand, it will be spellbinding to listen to Corbyn's excuse for not voting for it.
 

Cheesy

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finneh said:
If a business can dodge tax then it's their obligation to do so to stay competitive. If the next government made income tax somewhat optional they shouldn't be surprised when people don't pay it.

I agree regarding lobbyists, again though that's a governmental issue rather than a business one.
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Amazon could pay obscene amounts of tax and remain remarkably profitable - it's sheer greed as opposed to competitiveness. It's not their obligation at all - they should be able to recognise the benefits they gain through taxation insofar as it means governments can ensure their workers are educated to a higher level and have good healthcare etc.

The problem with lobbyists is that when a business becomes as big as Amazon they have enough money to influence government and sway public opinion.
 

berbatrick

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Cheesy said:
Amazon could pay obscene amounts of tax and remain remarkably profitable - it's sheer greed as opposed to competitiveness. It's not their obligation at all - they should be able to recognise the benefits they gain through taxation insofar as it means governments can ensure their workers are educated to a higher level and have good healthcare etc.

The problem with lobbyists is that when a business becomes as big as Amazon they have enough money to influence government and sway public opinion.
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I don't think Amazon needs public investment. The bulk of their workforce doesn't need to be literate beyond primary school. For the rest, they will have a sufficient pool to choose from if university was fully private and un-subsidised (and there is always the pool of 3rd world labour). The only thing they need are roads. They have the resources to build their own airline (airports if they wanted, as well) and probably trains.
 

berbatrick

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Also, they have calculated that it is worthwhile to have staff working at such a rate that more than a hoptialisation per day is common. There will always be replacement labour supplied by the market - they don't need employees to be in good shape.
 

RedChip

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Abizzz said:
Aye and all of the sudden they would face the same costs as everyone else.

All taxes are ultimately paid with consumer money but they aren't all paid by the consumer.

Put another way: If it's all paid for by consumers how come Bezos has money? It's all ours, isn't it? :lol:


They are being accused of running a shell game where they push profits to wherever is convenient for them and I am convinced they are guilty of it. (Either that or they make no profits in most large markets they operate in and huge profits in tiny nations. They're magicians).



This is nonsensical. No one wants them to pay 1 billion more in VAT and I have no clue why you go through the trouble of calculating this.
They make 10billion profits on 220billion revenue. So about 4.3%. They have a revenue of 8.6 billion in the UK so one would expect them to make about 370 million in profits in the UK, and pay 70 million taxes on it (Probably more because UK is more lucrative than most Amazon markets).
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Can't believe there are people defending Amazon on here. They have been taking the piss basically forever, even in the US.
 

Cheesy

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berbatrick said:
I don't think Amazon needs public investment. The bulk of their workforce doesn't need to be literate beyond primary school. For the rest, they will have a sufficient pool to choose from if university was fully private and un-subsidised (and there is always the pool of 3rd world labour). The only thing they need are roads. They have the resources to build their own airline (airports if they wanted, as well) and probably trains.
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That's largely true - but on a basic level even huge companies need governments that have enough public finds to uphold the law, and to have legal systems in place which, say, ensures Amazon have a right to land they own for warehouses etc. They're obviously not arsed about that, because they rely on other companies who don't dodge taxes doing it for them, but even businesses which don't depend on a lot of public investment still need governments to have enough to be able to stay afloat and keep the state stable.
 

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berbatrick

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youtube discourse is the apex of human communication and is the only indicator of What The Ordinary Voter Feels
 

ThierryHenry

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Ekkie Thump said:
That's only even partially true if you believe that Amazon stimulates a greater demand and increases the size of the overall workforce. If Amazon crowds out other companies by paying lower corporation tax it obviously doesn't pay far more in VAT, fuel duties, NI, employent PAYE than those it surplants - it simply replaces them.
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Good post. No idea why people are trying to argue against the idea that Amazon doesn’t pay it’s fair share... surely that’s simply an established fact by this point?
 

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finneh

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ThierryHenry said:
Good post. No idea why people are trying to argue against the idea that Amazon doesn’t pay it’s fair share... surely that’s simply an established fact by this point?
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The original statement was in relation to RLB's inaccurate statement that they paid "£5m in tax". This is obviously nonsense as they pay billions in NI, fuel duties, VAT, PAYE of their employees, business rates, corporation tax etc.

If the argument is solely in relation to corporation tax then it's an argument against governmental policy over the last few decades. Amazon simply pay the minimum legal amount that they have to pay and pass those tax savings to their customers (who judging by Amazon sales are delighted with this strategy), this means they grow and pay more tax. If any of their customers don't feel they pay their fair share they can either buy from another supplier or donate the cost savings Amazon pass on to the treasury.

If a government enacts a policy that is impossible to equitably police, then they'd be stupid to expect anything other than inequitable results. To blame Amazon for wanting to be as successful as possible is a bit strange.
 

VP89

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Labour will back a December election now, according to BBC.

Corbyn confirmed it just now himself.
 
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jderbyshire

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An election just before Christmas?

Turnout will be incredibly low. Plus the fact that a lot of working-class people are suffering from electoral fatigue and are more apathetic due to Brexit dragging on.

Tory landslide.
 

Drifter

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Corbyn:

"We have now heard from the EU that the extension of Article 50 to 31st January has been confirmed, so for the next three months, our condition of taking No Deal off the table has now been met.

"We will now launch the most ambitious and radical campaign for real change our country has ever seen."
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sun_tzu

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berbatrick said:
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Labour had better hope boris runs as bad a campaign as May did last time
Cant see that myself though - and i suspect this time there will be a TV debate and it will be nasty
Farrage, Johnson, Swinson, Sturgon?, Corbyn
Will be key to see what the brexit party does I think (election pact with boris - only standing against remain MPS, or campaigning in every constituency)
 

LARulz

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What difference does 1 day in an election make? Why do Labour want it on the 11th rather than 12th?
 

sun_tzu

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Interesting

Mr Burgon said Labour would be pushing to get votes for 16 and 17-year-olds, as well as EU nationals so they can have their say.

But he added: "Even if we don't get those things we want, when push comes to shove, we are going to support an election."
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50221856

Libs + Labour + SNP + handful of others and that could go through? - gut feel it will fall slightly short but will be close if all three main opposition parties back it
 
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