big rons sovereign
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His no look tap ins from 6 inches out make me wanna smash his face in.
Firmino is probably playing at the level Klopp hoped and expected he would when he bought him. It is Mané and Salah who have been exceeding expectations I suspect.He’s doing exactly what Liverpool need of him in fairness. Take him out of there and put him in a team that plays with a traditional 9 and he would probably get a fair bit of criticism.
It’s interesting, because Klopp always had a 10 at Dortmund, behind a more traditional 9 (Lewandowski). I don’t know whether Klopp has adapted to the players Liverpool have, or he signed players for the system he wanted.
What if Firmino just wasn’t so wasteful, and as a result, he too scored 30 goals? How will that be explained ‘tactically’?Has there been any top team that played with three out and out forwards who played beyond the last man? Surely one has to come deep?
Don't Liverpool play a sort of inverted 433? Most of the time I watch, bothAne and Salad are closer to.goal that Firmino. Even though they are better players, there are tactical reasons they score more goals.
Klopp didn't buy him.Firmino is probably playing at the level Klopp hoped and expected he would when he bought him. It is Mané and Salah who have been exceeding expectations I suspect.
If all had played well, to a level reasonably expected of them - it is undoubtedly Firmino who would be seen as not good enough I think. The others would be 15-18 goal wingers, and Liverpool would be third at best, and people would not say that they need to ship out their 18 goal wingers to improve. It’s the 12 goal striker who would be the obvious target. The other two who have exceeded expectations, massively, are making Bobby look good.
Rodgers then. He’s playing to a level reasonably expected when he was signed.Klopp didn't buy him.
Is Firmino really as wasteful as you make him seem to be?What if Firmino just wasn’t so wasteful, and as a result, he too scored 30 goals? How will that be explained ‘tactically’?
As I said, the less goals he scores, the more of a positive it is becoming!
Also, Mané and especially Salah have to do way too much work themselves for the majority of their goals, so I think the system thing is overplayed. A large portion of their goals they have to make for themselves from nothing.
Yes, the guy who broke the PL goalscoring record is a fraud.Can't help but cringe at the level of football understanding on display. Firmino is fairly rated, after being seriously underrated for years... He's incredible.
Salah is the one that's overrated to hell and back. He's an absolute fraud.
He has to be in the top 10 surely? Who would you have ahead of him?Does anyone outside of Liverpool actually rate him?
He’s not in the top 10 strikers in the PL, and as many have said Salah and Mane are far superior players.
hes not a bad player obviously, but he’s not top quality and I would doubt any top European club would want him as their starting striker. He works well for Liverpool and their system.
Irony abounds in this post.Can't help but cringe at the level of football understanding on display. Firmino is fairly rated, after being seriously underrated for years... He's incredible.
Salah is the one that's overrated to hell and back. He's an absolute fraud.
It depends on if you start to class inside forwards like Mane, Rashford, Salah, and Sterling as strikers. If you do he surely drops down the list.He has to be in the top 10 surely? Who would you have ahead of him?
There are some pretty bitter people on here, as well as some pretty one-eyed ones!Yes, the guy who broke the PL goalscoring record is a fraud.
I wasnt because they play different roles, but if you did yea he would drop down.It depends on if you start to class inside forwards like Mane, Rashford, Salah, and Sterling as strikers. If you do he surely drops down the list considerably.
I’m not generally one of these Opta fans, however, I believe statistically he misses the most big chances in the PL.Is Firmino really as wasteful as you make him seem to be?
Well that's a totally different debate. You used stats to try & prove a point, I simply replied in kind seeing as Bergkamp played a similar sort of role & is considered - quite rightly - as one of the best ever PL players. If you actually look at both players goals per game ratio you'll find there's not much in it. So considering the Dutchman played a slightly more advanced role than Bobby, who's more of an attacking midfielder, his goalscoring record doesn't exactly shout 'superior'. Firmino is a perfect example of the modern-day footballer playing at the highest level. LFC are where they are because of him, not in spite of him. Our players being overrated on a Manchester United forum is to be expected. But opinions & reality are never really good bedfellows on here when it comes to discussing the team that won the Champions League last year & look set to win their first league title in 30 years with a huge points advantage.Dennis Bergkamp was also a much better player in every facet.
I agree. I think having a goal machine on one side and currently one of the best wingers in world football on the other covers his flaws, if either of those two were to leave a more prolific striker than Firmino would probably be needed to make up for them. He does his job well within their system, but their system just happens to be bless with two players exceding all expectations.Firmino is probably playing at the level Klopp hoped and expected he would when he bought him. It is Mané and Salah who have been exceeding expectations I suspect.
If all had played well, to a level reasonably expected of them - it is undoubtedly Firmino who would be seen as not good enough I think. The others would be 15-18 goal wingers, and Liverpool would be third at best, and people would not say that they need to ship out their 18 goal wingers to improve. It’s the 12 goal striker who would be the obvious target. The other two who have exceeded expectations, massively, are making Bobby look good.
There is a reason that Bergkamp is considered as World Class and Firmino is not and it comes down to their overall gameset. I don't think Firmino is poor/average by any stretch but the point I was trying to make with his goal tally is that he clearly is capable of scoring more and since his overall game is great but not at the very top, more goals can help his 'cause' so to speak.Well that's a totally different debate. You used stats to try & prove a point, I simply replied in kind seeing as Bergkamp played a similar sort of role & is considered - quite rightly - as one of the best ever PL players. If you actually look at both players goals per game ratio you'll find there's not much in it. So considering the Dutchman played a slightly more advanced role than Bobby, who's more of an attacking midfielder, his goalscoring record doesn't exactly shout 'superior'. Firmino is a perfect example of the modern-day footballer playing at the highest level. LFC are where they are because of him, not in spite of him. Our players being overrated on a Manchester United forum is to be expected. But opinions & reality are never really good bedfellows on here when it comes to discussing the team that won the Champions League last year & look set to win their first league title in 30 years with a huge points advantage.
Regarding Ole as a club legend and as a top player are two very different things. I couldn’t care less if the Scouse want to refer to Bobby as a legend. My argument is simply that he’s not that good.United fans (including me) regard Ole as a club legend and yet he could barely get in the side most seasons.
Firmino has roughly the same goal output. But he’s somehow massively overrated and gets called Bobby No Goals? Abject stupidity.
People will chirp back in with daftness, but it’s clear as day that Klopp sets up Liverpool with Firmino as a key player. Their attacking 5 of Robertson, Salah, Firmino, Mane, and TAA is ridiculously effective.
It would not be better with van Persie, Ibra or Vardy in place of him. His ‘replacement’ would almost certainly score more goals, but would require a complete change of tactical approach.
He’s great. No he’s not a number 9, or number 10. But he is really great in that side.
Yeah you’re right. If everything that’s actually happening, for real... wasn’t... then yes, other things might be true.Firmino is probably playing at the level Klopp hoped and expected he would when he bought him. It is Mané and Salah who have been exceeding expectations I suspect.
If all had played well, to a level reasonably expected of them - it is undoubtedly Firmino who would be seen as not good enough I think. The others would be 15-18 goal wingers, and Liverpool would be third at best, and people would not say that they need to ship out their 18 goal wingers to improve. It’s the 12 goal striker who would be the obvious target. The other two who have exceeded expectations, massively, are making Bobby look good.
Nice attempt.Yeah you’re right. If everything that’s actually happening, for real... wasn’t... then yes, other things might be true.
As it is, he plays for a team that’s romping the league, was runners up last year and won the Champions League.
That's not necessarily a negative. Coutinho was a key player for them and when he left, they changed approach for the better. Lallana was once a key part of Klopp's pressing tactic, he got injured and they changed it up for the better. When Ox was in form he was a key midfield player for them but once he got injured they changed approach, again being no worse off.United fans (including me) regard Ole as a club legend and yet he could barely get in the side most seasons.
Firmino has roughly the same goal output. But he’s somehow massively overrated and gets called Bobby No Goals? Abject stupidity.
People will chirp back in with daftness, but it’s clear as day that Klopp sets up Liverpool with Firmino as a key player. Their attacking 5 of Robertson, Salah, Firmino, Mane, and TAA is ridiculously effective.
It would not be better with van Persie, Ibra or Vardy in place of him. His ‘replacement’ would almost certainly score more goals, but would require a complete change of tactical approach.
He’s great. No he’s not a number 9, or number 10. But he is really great in that side.
Kenny Dalglish - Liverpool's greatest ever player - once went nearly 12 months without scoring a goal. (November 1980 to October 1981)Nice attempt.
In both scenarios I have proposed, the one thing that happens in both of them is how Roberto Firmino is playing. The rest is the interpretation of such form based on the different fortunes of the team.
Yes, he plays for a team that is the best in the league, yet scores no goals for a year at home. That is still a fact. The only reason nobody would care about that is because the team is winning. You can’t possibly ignore a forward with such a record in a team that is not. It’s common sense, and a scenario based analysis to isolate the specific contribution of Firmino.
Not every player that plays for Liverpool is a top player by default.
So you'd stand by that comment even if he was doing this sort of stuff for you ?Regarding Ole as a club legend and as a top player are two very different things. I couldn’t care less if the Scouse want to refer to Bobby as a legend. My argument is simply that he’s not that good.
And Ole played considerably less football than him too, so if they have a similar goal record, that doesn’t say much in his favour.
I agree with everything you said but you are wasting your time presenting a nuanced position on the Caf
There are more..
He is absolutely vital to this setup.
He did play for Hoffenheim..
Why the duck am I going in about this twat? Sorry he is a absolute mess of a player...
Eh, I thought Salah was more wasteful in that game (although he was beating his marker/fullback for fun)Tevez was better than him at what he does 12 years ago in the PL. As an individual, Firmino also can't look half as good unless he's playing with explosive wide players, because their ability to not only score goals, but to score great goals often come via a run of play involving Firmino.
Go back to 07/08, Tevez was exactly the same with Rooney and Ronaldo but IMO, better.
Unlike Tevez, I don't think you can put him in any other team and get the same level of success (as much as it hurt to see Tevez go on and win trophies with City and Mancini)- and by all accounts if Liverpool want to win a treble and mark themselves as an elite force, Firmino will be one of the casualties because of his proven unreliability in front of goal in crucial games (Atletico is a clear example). They need a true 3-pronged attack and not 2 great wide-men and a side show.
Great player for Liverpool. One of the best foreign imports brought to the PL. His defensive style is unique and suits the smart defensive way Liverpool play now that they can manage games. Liverpool have morphed away from the all attack all the time play into a smart winning team and he is a huge part of it with his relentless style of play.One of the oddest looking feckers in the league. He's a good player but not a great one and is no where near the conversation when it comes to the PL's best foreign imports. He defensive style is rather unique though and he suits the boring style Liverpool have morphed into following the free flowing football they played the previous.
Not the type of player Sir Alex would have had at United.
Our best teams under Sir Alex have had more conventional strikers leading the front due to our wingers being providers more than they were wide forwards. Maybe if we didn't have Rooney from 06-09, who played that link man role perfectly (while banging in the goals of course)? Although I think that version of Rooney was better than this Firmino.Great player for Liverpool. One of the best foreign imports brought to the PL. His defensive style is unique and suits the smart defensive way Liverpool play now that they can manage games. Liverpool have morphed away from the all attack all the time play into a smart winning team and he is a huge part of it with his relentless style of play.
The type of player Sir Alex would have brought into united
It wasn’t an attempt. All you countered with is more made up nonsense involving alternate realities rather than this one.Nice attempt.
In both scenarios I have proposed, the one thing that happens in both of them is how Roberto Firmino is playing. The rest is the interpretation of such form based on the different fortunes of the team.
Yes, he plays for a team that is the best in the league, yet scores no goals for a year at home. That is still a fact. The only reason nobody would care about that is because the team is winning. You can’t possibly ignore a forward with such a record in a team that is not. It’s common sense, and a scenario based analysis to isolate the specific contribution of Firmino.
Not every player that plays for Liverpool is a top player by default.
You’re right. Setting fire to a tactical system that’s taken years to recruit and train for, may give better results.That's not necessarily a negative. Coutinho was a key player for them and when he left, they changed approach for the better. Lallana was once a key part of Klopp's pressing tactic, he got injured and they changed it up for the better. When Ox was in form he was a key midfield player for them but once he got injured they changed approach, again being no worse off.
Klopp has proven to be flexible, at least more so than most thought, and is most likely carrying Firmino as opposed to the other way around. No doubt should Firmino leave he'll simply change approach again and carry on. The ones I think will have a bigger impact are the wingers and maybe Van Dijk.
It is extremely simple. Firmino is not failing to score at Anfield due to tactics, choice or style. He is failing to score because he continually misses the chances presented to him. There is no way that can be dressed up as all part of the plan. He has several opportunities to score goals. He just isn’t taking them. That isn’t made up. The plan, I imagine, is for him to take some of these chances he fails to.It wasn’t an attempt. All you countered with is more made up nonsense involving alternate realities rather than this one.
If he doesn’t score any at home, that means they ALL come away from home. To wrap that up as bad news is ridiculous. All players (bar a few token exceptions) score more at home. I think almost all of his goals have been winners too.
The idea that a centre forward must score the most goals in a team is archaic. If you don’t like how that Liverpool front line plays and shares its goals, fine. But it’s clearly working.
nowhere near one of the top foreign imports. He’s a good player, nothing special, and particularly if we start looking back at the entire PL.Great player for Liverpool. One of the best foreign imports brought to the PL. His defensive style is unique and suits the smart defensive way Liverpool play now that they can manage games. Liverpool have morphed away from the all attack all the time play into a smart winning team and he is a huge part of it with his relentless style of play.
The type of player Sir Alex would have brought into united
People keep saying this. His ‘value to the system’ or the unit and how good he is as a player are two very different things.His value is relative to the benefit he brings to the system. It's a gross oversimplification to determine quality based on some statistic alone. Liverpool benefit tremendously with him playing because his role in the team is vital to their functioning the way they do. Overrated? definitely not.