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Le Red

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Fernandes could score 1000 penalties and that will not change, Paul is our only elite player and hopefully he stays and starts scoring regularly again.

Fernandes has done better in his position than Parreira or Lingard but he has been no catalyst. The team was already playing much better from around November and was just screaming for someone who had some ability in that area of the field.

Fernandes has done well since he came in there is no need to overrate him, there is a reason no one else wanted him and you will see more of why next season when every team is back in full flow. Funny people always commented on penalties forming a large part of Paul's goal tally but it is never mentioned for Fernandes.
It's hard to write this much dross in just a few paragraphs but you've done it.
First of all, it's Mister Bruno for you.
Second, it's an unanimous opinion, exception made for yours, that he's been massive for us, acting indeed as the catalyst of our fantastic recovery, being the best player in the league for as long as he's been in it.
 

Yagami

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Its slightly different when we are in control of the match and he doesn't have to be as disciplined, and for France he played in a less offensive team surrounded by players like Kante and Matuidi who can run and cover him till the cows come home, something he doesn't have at United.
In the KO games at the World Cup Pogba was 8th in total tackles for central midfielders. Only two behind Kanté.

In the World Cup final, he made 4 tackles - more than any other French player, and only one behind Brozovic who had the most - and made 2 interceptions which, again, was more than anyone else on the pitch bar Croatia's RB who made the same amount.

Since returning to the team post lockdown, I dont think there's much between him and Matic in terms of tackles and interceptions either.
 

Quinzaine

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I would say it’s the other way around.
In the sense that Bruno is the scorer and gets the higher numbers I can see your point yes. But I guess I should have clarified that I was making the comparison more on a symbolic level. To me Bruno is Pippen as he's the player that has come in and given Pogba (Jordan) the platform to play his natural game. Without the need to force his creativity, overthink, or perform multiple roles - Pogba can focus on a role which allows him to dictate attacks from deep whilst making the occasional burst forward yet maintaining defensive discipline. He's been brilliant since the restart and the scary thing is he's in cruise control and has barely had to get out of third gear. As he grows in to his role and builds fitness and match sharpness he will quite easily be the best CM in the league and potentially the world, and that side of Pogba is a game-changer, the kind that takes you from a team that's 4th or 5th to being a title challenger. Thus our Jordan :D (I do admit however that I know very little about basketball in general).
 

Quinzaine

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It's a ridiculous comparison either way.

Jordan was far superior to Pippen.

Pogba and Bruno are arguably on the same tier as players.
I did admit in my following post that I know very little about Basketball. I (probably lazily) made the comparison to highlight that Bruno is that world-class player in his own right who has come in and created the perfect environment for Pogba who I believe is our best player and we've never been able to get the maximum out of. However, their playing styles and the extent to which Jordan carried Pippen and the rest of the team doesn't apply in the same way.
 

Clermontois

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You've seen my nonsense, and raised it!
Facts are facts, accept them.

It's a ridiculous comparison either way.

Jordan was far superior to Pippen.

Pogba and Bruno are arguably on the same tier as players.
Not even close and it was a fair comparison.


It's hard to write this much dross in just a few paragraphs but you've done it.
First of all, it's Mister Bruno for you.
Second, it's an unanimous opinion, exception made for yours, that he's been massive for us, acting indeed as the catalyst of our fantastic recovery, being the best player in the league for as long as he's been in it.
If you consider facts as dross what does that say about your life...

Fernandes has not been the best player in the epl, it is that simple. He has to do a lot more than score penalties and hog freekicks to be the best player in the league. Unless Paul and De Bruyne leave he would never be considered as that either he is simply not on the same level.

I appreciate his impact but won't overrate it, he has been no catalyst and the team was already on the up. Once Rashford demands more of those set pieces next season let's see what the stats show.
 

Gasolin

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Facts are facts, accept them.



Not even close and it was a fair comparison.




If you consider facts as dross what does that say about your life...

Fernandes has not been the best player in the epl, it is that simple. He has to do a lot more than score penalties and hog freekicks to be the best player in the league. Unless Paul and De Bruyne leave he would never be considered as that either he is simply not on the same level.

I appreciate his impact but won't overrate it, he has been no catalyst and the team was already on the up. Once Rashford demands more of those set pieces next season let's see what the stats show.
There is clearly a pre-Bruno and post-Bruno Manchester United. Yes, Ole has prepared that team to slot him in, but still, the difference in mental strength and conviction in the play is too big to just be ignored. Win rate of 45% before, 75% after. Goal rate up by 50%. Could it be hype? Maybe, but so far, it's a crazy interesting hype that's been going for 15, 16 games I think?

Wouldn't you say that similar to Cantona, Fernandes is forcing United to change pattern during offensive phases, becoming a bit more unpredictable? Wouldn't you say the attack goes faster when it goes through him?
 

roonster09

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Fernandes has not been the best player in the epl, it is that simple. He has to do a lot more than score penalties and hog freekicks to be the best player in the league. Unless Paul and De Bruyne leave he would never be considered as that either he is simply not on the same level.

I appreciate his impact but won't overrate it, he has been no catalyst and the team was already on the up. Once Rashford demands more of those set pieces next season let's see what the stats show.
Since he joined ManUtd he won 2/2 ManUtd player of the month and PL player of the month. Pogba is obviously more talented player but Bruno had awesome 2 months.

Whether you agree or not, most see him as a catalyst for this good run.

Pogba is class player and better technically but Bruno is very strong in other areas.

This forum is sometimes full of shit like the bold parts. You don't have to shit on Bruno to worship Pogba. Bruno is much more than just penalty and set piece merchant.
 
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sammsky1

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The fanboys are at it again. People saying Pogba has been one of our best players still makes them angry.
No, you gotta say he's the best, the best that ever was or ever has been. Bruno who?
It’s like a zealots self help group and quite insane to observe.
 

Clermontois

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Since he joined ManUtd he won 2/2 ManUtd player of the month and PL player of the month. Pogba is obviously more talented player but Bruno is had awesome 2 months.

Whether you agree or not, most see him as a catalyst for this good run.

Pogba is class player and better technically but Bruno is very strong in other areas.

This forum is sometimes full of shit like the bold parts. You don't have to shit on Bruno to worship Pogba. Bruno is much more than just penalty and set piece merchant.
I agree, take your first bolded sentence for instance.

Funny I am doing neither, Ferandes is at one level Paul is up another level or two.

Outside of set pieces Fernandes is impressive tracking down the ball and that is about it.
 

roonster09

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I agree, take your first bolded sentence for instance.

Funny I am doing neither, Ferandes is at one level Paul is up another level or two.

Outside of set pieces Fernandes is impressive tracking down the ball and that is about it.
We haven't lost a game since Bruno joined, scoring lot of goals and here we are, someone who thinks he is just a set piece merchant.

13 goals and assists in 10 PL games but somehow he is miles behind Pogba.

They both are excellent players with different strengths. Pogba is better technical player but that alone won't put him levels above Bruno. If Bruno carries on like he is playing now, he will win one more player of the month, which would mean no PL player is better than him since he signed.
 
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Clermontois

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We haven't lost a game since Bruni joined, scoring lot of goals and here we are, someone who thinks he is just a set piece merchant.

13 goals and assists in 10 PL games but somehow he is miles behind Pogba.

They both are excellent players with different strengths. Pogba is better technical player but that alone won't put him levels above Bruno. If Bruno carries on like he is playing now, he will win one more player of the month, which would mean no PL player is better than him since he signed.
If not for Paul we would have lost against Tottenham and no telling what that would have done to our form.

Mentioning Fernandes's goal tally without mentioning how many were penalties is a counterintuitive.

He is levels above Fernandes, what I have seen him do even since he came back means there is no other player like him. If player of the month awards were a guage of ability then Paul would have won two in Ole's first two months in charge where he was utterly devastating playing further forward.
 

roonster09

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Yeah people are confusing Bruno being our most important player in being the catalist in our current resurgence to him being our best player. Pogba is still our best player.

You watch United play and Pogba in our midfield and he pops out as the best player in the team. He's got everything in that midfield. Skill, power, technique, passing range etc.

He's the reason why we're controlling all these games. He's assured on the ball and help us build from the back. Pre lockdown while we were on a decent form we were still nowhere our current level where we're just blowing teams.

Pre lockdown, in our run we still had games like Everton and Wolves draws where we couldn't control those games. Even the Tottenham game post lockdown showed that, and as soon as Pogba came in we became settled and completely controlled that game and started knocking on their door.

People shouldn't let his new withdrawn role from the spotlight(goals and assists all the time and even in this case I'm expecting him to pick up the pace since he still makes many key passes every game) fool them, the guy is still our best player.
Pogba is our most talented player and without doubt at the very top when it comes to most talented players in the league, but I wouldn't call him as our best player without doubt. He was last season and before that too but this season since Bruni joined it's different. Bruno isn't as talented as Pogba, he isn't refined also like Pogba but we can't ignore his impact. I don't think we have outright best player, we had Rashford who was best for couple of months, Martial for same time period, since Bruno signed he looks like our best player, Pogba came back and both looked better in different games.

Pogba is definitely our most talented player. It's great to watch them play together though, they compliment other's game well and both are good enough to play risky passes or hurt the defense out of nowhere.

Pogba is playing very good role now, making Bruno's job very easy. His passes from deep is just brilliant and you can always rely on him to get out of tight spaces. Bruno is someone who will take lot of risks and even on bad days he will come up with game changing moments. That's why as a pair they are excellent.

Pogba makes Bruno job easier so that Bruno doesn't have to worry about carrying the ball to final third, Bruno made life easier for Pogba as Pogba is not under pressure like before where he was our only creative player.
 

roonster09

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If not for Paul we would have lost against Tottenham and no telling what that would have done to our form.

Mentioning Fernandes's goal tally without mentioning how many were penalties is a counterintuitive.

He is levels above Fernandes, what I have seen him do even since he came back means there is no other player like him. If player of the month awards were a guage of ability then Paul would have won two in Ole's first two months in charge where he was utterly devastating playing further forward.
If buts would have could have.
 

kouroux

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Here we go, full madness is on now. We had to pit them against each other now :lol: Let's enjoy both and what they each bring to the team.
They love playing together but it takes certain crazy fans to wanna justify why one is better or more important than the other.
 

roonster09

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Here we go, full madness is on now. We had to pit them against each other now :lol: Let's enjoy both and what they each bring to the team.
They love playing together but it takes certain crazy fans to wanna justify why one is better or more important than the other.
Exactly. For some reasons fans just can't enjoy 2 players playing well and complimenting each other. We had this with Rashford vs Martial, now Pogba vs Bruno.

Can Pogba play like Bruno in AM position? I don't think so
Can Bruno play like Pogba in CM position? No way.

They are 2 players in completely different positions who loves playing together and enjoy each other's presence on the pitch.
 

Fridge chutney

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Here we go, full madness is on now. We had to pit them against each other now :lol: Let's enjoy both and what they each bring to the team.
They love playing together but it takes certain crazy fans to wanna justify why one is better or more important than the other.
Yes, those "fans" need to have a word with themselves. The prerequisite of shitting on one of our excellent and influential players to put their favourite in a better light is beyond pathetic.

Regardless I'm enjoying seeing Pogba thriving and happy, and I hope he signs a new contract with us!
 

dabeast

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Please look at this collection of Pogba highlights vs Villa. Right foot / left foot pinpoint short/long passes at different speeds, disguise, vision to spot any attacking situation before it develops, worldie goals from inside and outside the box, surges with speed and power past other players while dribbling past them, dribbling out of tight spots with 3 markers, holding off people with strength, defensively winning tackles and headers, engine for days.

I can't think of another player in history, who could do all these things. Amongst midfielders, Charlton, Hoddle, Yaya Toure, Gascoigne, Socrates, Platini, Matthaus, Scholes, Iniesta/Xavi, Gerrard/Lampard, even Maradona had some of these qualities, but no one had all of them. And this is Pogba's main problem, that he can do everything so well that when you play him at one position, there are always other positions where he could clearly be better utilized. The only position I can't imagine him being the best is goalkeeper but he would be the best centre-half at our club, the best striker, if he cared to play there.

Pundits like Keane and Gary Neville, who didn't have an iota of Pogba's capabilities but were vocal, hard-working and lucky to play surrounded by much better players, go on incessantly about Pogba's attitude. However, think about it - would you want to try if all the great work you did and passes that you played were squandered by the likes of Pereira/Lingard/Lukaku/Fellaini/even young Rashford, the team you played in shipped goals because of the likes of Smalling/Jones/Rojo and the coaching was done by overestimated individualists who wanted their own stamp on the team like Mourinho (and LvG but Pogba never played with him). Keane and Neville were useful lieutenants for SAF to deploy who say Pogba isn't a leader, but true leadership requires people to stand up and speak out even when it hurts. Who else would have the gumption to say Utd should "attack, attack, attack" when having to play in a soul-destroying (it was certainly horrendous to watch) Mourinho 1-1 draw against Southampton in 2018?

Football is a team sport and Pogba, like all supremely talented players, needs a team for him to be interested. For France in the WC he had that with Mbappe, Griezmann, Dembele, Kante, Varane and a good defence. He could see that Mbappe (even Dembele then) was the kind of talent that could match his, and could learn from. He hasn't had that at Utd for years but now Martial and Rashford are starting to look like they are absolutely top-drawer, Bruno is the Modric to his Kroos, the defence is not terrible and Greenwood (and Sancho if he joins) may possess a talent on the level of his own and Utd are looking like a team he can grace.

Messi would have been a wasted player, a Matt Le Tissier or a Hatem Ben Arfa or a Dmitri Payet, if he had been in a team like Man Utd has been for the past 7 years. Now, Pogba now sees a team that could be worthy of his supreme talents. He has wasted some of the best years of his footballing life in this dross - he won't get those back - but this maybe a chink of light at the end of what has been a very long tunnel.
 
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tenpoless

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Now that he finally gets what he wants, a very good midfield partner in Bruno, his fanboys shit on Bruno.
What is it with French players and their die hard fans? same thing happened with Martial fanboys who shat on Lukaku everytime he scored a goal.
It's as if their favourite have to be the best in doing what they do. When it's the team that gets you trophies, not a single player.
 

Sayros

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Pogba is our most talented player and without doubt at the very top when it comes to most talented players in the league, but I wouldn't call him as our best player without doubt. He was last season and before that too but this season since Bruni joined it's different. Bruno isn't as talented as Pogba, he isn't refined also like Pogba but we can't ignore his impact. I don't think we have outright best player, we had Rashford who was best for couple of months, Martial for same time period, since Bruno signed he looks like our best player, Pogba came back and both looked better in different games.

Pogba is definitely our most talented player. It's great to watch them play together though, they compliment other's game well and both are good enough to play risky passes or hurt the defense out of nowhere.

Pogba is playing very good role now, making Bruno's job very easy. His passes from deep is just brilliant and you can always rely on him to get out of tight spaces. Bruno is someone who will take lot of risks and even on bad days he will come up with game changing moments. That's why as a pair they are excellent.

Pogba makes Bruno job easier so that Bruno doesn't have to worry about carrying the ball to final third, Bruno made life easier for Pogba as Pogba is not under pressure like before where he was our only creative player.
If only more people could just appreciate both without needing to compare or put a hierarchy on them, I'm guilty of it myself at times as well but it's really pointless. They're both bringing the best out of one another, and we have yet to see the best of them.
 

Revan

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Pogba might be our most talented player (or well, next to Greenwood), but there is no doubt that Bruno is currently the better player and is playing better than Pogba.

To be fair, it seems that Pogba is ok with it, and he seems fine to be a supporting player. Which actually is the place where he seems to perform best (Juve, France). Probably does not have the necessary skills to be the main player, but as long as he is fine with it, then it is good. I would take the Pogba of the last few weeks (or the one in World Cup) for the next few years.
 

Lj82

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Keane made a good point after the Villa game.

We've always assumed Pogba wants to be the leader, the captain, the guy who pulls the team out of trouble. Maybe that isn't the case.

At the moment Maguire is taking care of captain duties, Bruno is adding the zest we need to open defences, Rashford/Martial are scoring so all the pressure is off Pogba. He can do his own thing now without all the expectations and that's what he wanted.

He can be the top man in his own position and know that when he isn't always 100% there's others to take some of the weight.
Oh.
That was what Keane said? Saw some misleading click bait headline and didn't read the content
 

He'sRaldo

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Here we go, full madness is on now. We had to pit them against each other now :lol: Let's enjoy both and what they each bring to the team.
They love playing together but it takes certain crazy fans to wanna justify why one is better or more important than the other.
Comparing them is normal, every fanbase does that. The weird part is reducing one to big up the other.
 

kafta

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Bruno and pogba compliment each other very well and that's all that matters.
 

My only Eric

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If I were Paul Pogba and I had to play along side Lingard and Pereira with Lukaku in front coupled with Jose on the touchline, I would also want away.
Hell, if I were Lingard and I had to play alongside Lingard, I would want away so bad.

The punchline being Lingard's absence from even our extended bench is enough to make Pogba sign a new contract.

Imagine how good he'll play with no Lingard @ united. :drool:

It's a joke
 

Canagel

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I don’t think there is much between Pogba and Bruno. Pogba is more talented so I get people saying he’s the best player but you simply can’t look past Bruno’s statistics in that number 10 role. He’s an absolute beast and just churns our goals and assists.
I find it funny how he is referred to as "talent" as if Pogba hasn't been putting up concrete numbers on the board for the last 2/3 years. Bagged 15 goals and 10 assists all comps in the worst United squad of recent history and topped every offensive stat last year. 10/11 assists without taking any set pieces before that with 2 months injured.. and consistently rated as a top 3 to 5 midfielder in the Prem statistically while in a shambles of the team but we're acting like we've never seen a productive midfielder before.
Put up these stats mostly from the double pivot btw.
But Pogba is just talent right ?
Pogba is our most talented player and without doubt at the very top when it comes to most talented players in the league, but I wouldn't call him as our best player without doubt. He was last season and before that too but this season since Bruni joined it's different. Bruno isn't as talented as Pogba, he isn't refined also like Pogba but we can't ignore his impact. I don't think we have outright best player, we had Rashford who was best for couple of months, Martial for same time period, since Bruno signed he looks like our best player, Pogba came back and both looked better in different games.

Pogba is definitely our most talented player. It's great to watch them play together though, they compliment other's game well and both are good enough to play risky passes or hurt the defense out of nowhere.

Pogba is playing very good role now, making Bruno's job very easy. His passes from deep is just brilliant and you can always rely on him to get out of tight spaces. Bruno is someone who will take lot of risks and even on bad days he will come up with game changing moments. That's why as a pair they are excellent.

Pogba makes Bruno job easier so that Bruno doesn't have to worry about carrying the ball to final third, Bruno made life easier for Pogba as Pogba is not under pressure like before where he was our only creative player.
Again this talent thing. If Bruno is as good as Pogba then he would be held to the same standard. You can even look here posters talking about Pogba losing the ball once in a game he had 85% pass completion and was arguably MOTM yet Bruno has a whole game losing the ball but its justifed under "trying stuff" and "taking risks". Strangely this has never been afforded for Pogba (even though he loses the ball less on average) and that isnt even supposed to be a dig at Bruno. It's the different expextation when one player is held to a higher level than another one.
When people say Bruno is better they mean by their own modest expectations, otherwise its not really in question and its the same for Rashford, Martial and the others not only Bruno
 

Nickelodeon

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I’m happy if there’s a clear debate on who’s better between Bruno and Pogba. That means both are creating enough reasons for compelling arguments.
 

roonster09

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Again this talent thing. If Bruno is as good as Pogba then he would be held to the same standard. You can even look here posters talking about Pogba losing the ball once in a game he had 85% pass completion and was arguably MOTM yet Bruno has a whole game losing the ball but its justifed under "trying stuff" and "taking risks". Strangely this has never been afforded for Pogba (even though he loses the ball less on average) and that isnt even supposed to be a dig at Bruno. It's the different expextation when one player is held to a higher level than another one.
When people say Bruno is better they mean by their own modest expectations, otherwise its not really in question and its the same for Rashford, Martial and the others not only Bruno
Well you are free to argue your points with them then. I always said losing possession stat is meaningless and shouldn't be considered without context, I will say the same thing for Bruno too. Attacking midfielders or creative midfielders always top that stat.

Looks like you are arguing all these points with wrong poster, I always defended Pogba and will continue to do so as he had unrealistic expectation on him where he was expected to defend, control the game, create chances and score.

Since Bruno was signed, we look completely different team. That doesn't mean Bruno is outright better player than Pogba, it means he had better impact in the last 2 months. Now that they play in same team, they don't even play same role.
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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I find it funny how he is referred to as "talent" as if Pogba hasn't been putting up concrete numbers on the board for the last 2/3 years. Bagged 15 goals and 10 assists all comps in the worst United squad of recent history and topped every offensive stat last year. 10/11 assists without taking any set pieces before that with 2 months injured.. and consistently rated as a top 3 to 5 midfielder in the Prem statistically while in a shambles of the team but we're acting like we've never seen a productive midfielder before.
Put up these stats mostly from the double pivot btw.
But Pogba is just talent right ?
Again this talent thing. If Bruno is as good as Pogba then he would be held to the same standard. You can even look here posters talking about Pogba losing the ball once in a game he had 85% pass completion and was arguably MOTM yet Bruno has a whole game losing the ball but its justifed under "trying stuff" and "taking risks". Strangely this has never been afforded for Pogba (even though he loses the ball less on average) and that isnt even supposed to be a dig at Bruno. It's the different expextation when one player is held to a higher level than another one.
When people say Bruno is better they mean by their own modest expectations, otherwise its not really in question and its the same for Rashford, Martial and the others not only Bruno
Bruno is capable of getting 20 goals and 20 assists next season if this current form keeps up, that’s just far more deadly than Pogba has ever managed. I absolutely love Pogba btw, he’s easily my favourite player and has to defend him from all sorts of abuse but Bruno is just a machine. He’s got far more of an eye for goal than Pogba I think and will end up scoring a greater variety and diversity of goals. His passing range is weaker than Pogba but his brain is quick and when playing in the hole he’s capable of doing things in a split second to open the game up.

As I say, I’m a big fan of both players but I think it’s a little silly to say Pogba is miles ahead when Bruno has proven that he’s more effective in that role. Just because Pogba is easier on the eye that doesn’t make him better per se.
 

Strelok

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I agree, take your first bolded sentence for instance.

Funny I am doing neither, Ferandes is at one level Paul is up another level or two.

Outside of set pieces Fernandes is impressive tracking down the ball and that is about it.
Nah, I guess you didn't watch him enough.
What is the most impressive about Bruno is him being always 1-2 second ahead of the general play. You'd have a feeling he knowns exactly what everyone around him are doing and will do in the next 1-2 second.

Next time you watch him pay close attention to him before he receives the ball and after he passes the ball and you'd see I think.
 
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Here we go, full madness is on now. We had to pit them against each other now :lol: Let's enjoy both and what they each bring to the team.
They love playing together but it takes certain crazy fans to wanna justify why one is better or more important than the other.
Exactly. For some reasons fans just can't enjoy 2 players playing well and complimenting each other. We had this with Rashford vs Martial, now Pogba vs Bruno.
It's madness indeed. First we had people who were arguing that we don't need Pogba anymore since we have Bruno. Now we have people pitting them against each other.
 

Skeezix

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What a player
Pirloesque!!

I hope he signs a new contract and develop his game even more to be a Regista. We need one who can do that role for the next 3-5 years to challenge all fronts and dominate the league.
 

Skills

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Pirloesque!!

I hope he signs a new contract and develop his game even more to be a Regista. We need one who can do that role for the next 3-5 years to challenge all fronts and dominate the league.
It's still kind of a waste of his talent.

With David Silva now confirmed to be leaving City, I wonder if Pogba will be tempted to just move across Manchester and take that spot? He'd fit in perfectly with De Bruyne and Guardiola's system will get a lot more out of him.

With a year left, we won't be in any position to do anything about it.
 

kouroux

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Yes, those "fans" need to have a word with themselves. The prerequisite of shitting on one of our excellent and influential players to put their favourite in a better light is beyond pathetic.

Regardless I'm enjoying seeing Pogba thriving and happy, and I hope he signs a new contract with us!
I love the fact that we have both and that it's working out well so far. I get personal preference for one over the other, it's natural. We just need to be fair in general
 

TrustInOle

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It's still kind of a waste of his talent.

With David Silva now confirmed to be leaving City, I wonder if Pogba will be tempted to just move across Manchester and take that spot? He'd fit in perfectly with De Bruyne and Guardiola's system will get a lot more out of him.

With a year left, we won't be in any position to do anything about it.
Could you imagine! :lol: :lol:
 

kouroux

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It's still kind of a waste of his talent.

With David Silva now confirmed to be leaving City, I wonder if Pogba will be tempted to just move across Manchester and take that spot? He'd fit in perfectly with De Bruyne and Guardiola's system will get a lot more out of him.

With a year left, we won't be in any position to do anything about it.
We knew that ages ago
 
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