I thought he was class the first year in fairness. The number of assists he should have got. If he could return to that Pogba for the last 6 months we might just win a league...what an ending that would be.
Raiola: "I can say that it's over for Pogba at United"
- Thread starter crossy1686
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Barca won't be able to sign him as they're a financial mess, but there's no such thing as a Barca-type player anymore (well, it may still be relevant as a description, but Barca is filled with non Barca-type players nowadays and they've moved away from everything that made them so great in late 00's/early 10's).
They can pay up or shag off. Juventus are notorious money pinchers.
I'm confused. I don't know what you're saying "no" to
Someone asked if anyone can say they're happy we signed him back and I said I am, then explained the reasons as to why I feel this way. You can't contest the way I feel.Respectfully, your second paragraph reads like a bunch of nonsense to me. Bruno is an outlier, and gets commended for being exactly that. "Shopping around" wouldn't guarantee you finding anyone capable of performing similarly. Furthermore, the fact that Bruno gets to play with Pogba already gives Bruno a leg up, Pogba didn't have that kind of support. Our team/squad has been incredibly poor in terms of quality for years. Bruno has a settled Fred, Maguire (some people rate him), and a relatively mature Rashford, as well as break through talent like Greenwood. Pogba had to lead United in the majority of core attacking stats, despite playing from midfield, and not always as advanced as the role Bruno plays. Come on.
This is a much fairer assessment I can agree with.
True. His actual performances are so underrated and people tend to forget and/or ignore his best showings to fit his agenda... that said, he has been declining for a while now and it's understandable that fans are fed up with him & his and Raiola's off-the-field behaviour. And he also is not someone that you can build a team around, even though he can perform brilliant for a team where he's not required to be the main star (see Juve & France) — very similar to Di Maria, although Pogba's media profile suggests that he was actually hoping to prove himself in a main star role (but didn't really bothered enough on the pitch to actually do something about it).
Transfer of Bruno puts him to shame, of course, but, if we're being honest, it does so not only to Pogba, but to pretty much every high-profile transfer that we've had since van Persie.
This. Sick of Italian teams pleading poverty with their hands out for players.
Pay up (like we did) or feck off. They get a fecking easy ride from the players who seemingly want to go there when their contracts are up.
Its the narrative because he's the one agitating for a move. We have Rashford coming out saying he couldn't imagine playing for another club, Bruno saying he is happy the club weren't satisfied with a draw because the players demand better, Maguire has made comments about the team needing to do better. thats what fans want to see, passion and fight, not a shady agent forcing a move.
And I get it, Pogba could be winning trophies and medals at a different club. I don't begrudge him a move and like you I actually quite like the player. But you can't be the record club signing and, by your own admission, be inconsistent, be outplayed by a player (signed for half your fee), say you need a new challenge and not expect some blow back for it.
An absolutely delusional take on it.
I agree with the sentiment of this post. I also think it's time for him to leave. I think after being out injured for nearly a year, understandably, he didn't look the same, then got injured again, came back, caught COVID. His body has been through it, recently. I think he'll regain some of his sharpness with time, but I also think he's declining. I don't see him pulling off those forward bursts he used to, nor does he look as creative as he was when Ibra was here (his position and role in the team are different now, and that plays a part, but still)
I don't subscribe to Bruno's transfer putting him to shame though. I think Bruno came to a more stable United, with less negativity, as well as a few things going our way, mainly Rashford's and Greenwood's development/growth. People attribute last season's recovery to Bruno, and though he played an instrumental role, Martial and Rashford had also been balling, and many of Bruno's goal contributions were due to pens Martial carved out, or simple passes Rashford and Greenwood turned into great goals.
Bruno is also an outlier. I don't recall a new signing having that many match deciding involvements in prem's history let alone at United. I rather commend Bruno for doing that, than using it as a marker against Pogba since 98.9% of transfers don't turn out like Bruno's.
We're not about to pretend that Pogba as a scapegoat is something recent or due to Raiola's latest antics.
Record signings are/can be inconsistent. Especially one coming into a club in the circumstances we were when Pogba came. Our troubles have been recorded and illustrated every year since. From recruitment to managerial appointments, scouting, contractual renewals, etc. Football is not static. The United Bruno came into is a much more positive than the United Pogba has been part of for most of his time here.
Last edited:
Kind of weird how Pogba and Bruno don't even play the same role, and how we buy players to improve the quality of the squad/help others, and when they do just that, fans get on a message board to say "Bruno puts Pogba to shame".
Cavani is putting AWB to shame
I'm out of this thread.
Cavani is putting AWB to shame
It's actually quite a measured and reasonable take. Sorry for not having my pitchfork at hand
I'm out of this thread.
If AWB was a forward, you might have a point. But as usual, the fanboy in you could not resist talking some utter nonsense, in order to find some sort of suitable parallel.Kind of weird how Pogba and Bruno don't even play the same role, and how we buy players to improve the quality of the squad/help others, and when they do just that, fans get on a message board to say "Bruno puts Pogba to shame".
Cavani is putting AWB to shame
It's actually quite a measured and reasonable take. Sorry for not having my pitchfork at hand
I'm out of this thread.
Think his point is Bruno and Pogba don’t play the same position hence the Cavani and AWB comparison aka you can’t compare Pogba and Bruno.If AWB was a forward, you might have a point. But as usual, the fanboy in you could not resist talking some utter nonsense, in order to find some sort of suitable parallel.
I think Pogba doesn't need Bruno to be ashamed of his attitude, performance on the pitch, sulking, moaning and wanting to leave for years , considering the price we've paid for him and the hope of the fans and club to be back to the top. The sad thing is I'm sure he isn't ashamed of his comeback here. So, he can go asap. I've said this 2 years ago.
Simple fact is we paid €90m for him and he’s not come anywhere even remotely close to justifying his place in the team, never mind justifying the fee.
Thank you
I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt and put this down to some sort of language barrier, if an evidently tongue-in-cheek remark, which others understood, got you typing ad hominem. Don't be a weirdo.If AWB was a forward, you might have a point. But as usual, the fanboy in you could not resist talking some utter nonsense, in order to find some sort of suitable parallel.
I'm not saying its right or wrong, just stating that when things are bad, a player sneding out messages that he wants to leave is of course going to result in backlash. Its not the first time its happened with him and Raiola either. Its football, you reap what you sow. United have unsettled plenty of players in the past in order to get them to move so I don't blame Raiola or Pogba. But I also wont say they don't deserve the backlash either. Its all hot air either way.
Are you forgetting how bad United were up to December 2019? By all accounts Bruno was the catalyst that helped us finish in the top 4. We were in poor form and were definitely not a positive team at the time.
My initial statement wasn't questioning why that was the narrative. I said I don't believe him to deserve it, but unfortunately for him, it is what it is.
I did credit Bruno, but I wasn't referring strictly to performances. For better or worse, United got a lift in atmosphere with Ole's appointment. A large part of our fans bought into Ole as manager long term.
Think his transfer might be the death knell for our galactico approach. I'm glad that we seem to be shifting focus towards trying to unearth hidden gems.
Think that's a bit unfair.
We simply wasted his peak by surrounding him in dross for ages.
They obviously sold him a dream of giving him good players to work with and a winning team, instead got stuck in a midfield with Fellaini and players like Pereira and Lingard.
No Pogba hasn't been untouchable himself and the recent injury has definitely taken away his top level - but he was still unfairly treated by the crowd especially with the whole Jose fall out.
People probably expected too much from him, he was never a match winner or Talisman when we paid 90m for him.
I feel like if we signed the younger Pogba now in this current team, he'd be seen very differently.
He's made his own bed now and clearly wants to leave so we just have to accept that and make sure we replace him properly.
When you consider the agent fees and wages and return on investment re: trophies, it’s one of the worst transfers in the club’s history.
The Club’s youth recruitment drive the past few years is a breath of fresh air and a very good sign that our academy and youth teams are garnering respect again. I remember the embarrassment of watching RVP and Phil Neville send their kids to city academy. This is a big picture and long-term approach that some people conveniently ignore because of their hate for the Glazers and Ole.
Absolutely. Pogba was brought in to be a game changer and the star of the team. He didn't consistently show anything close to that throughout his time at the club.
Just imagine how much better off we would be if we spent that money on other players, at a time when £90 million (it was actually around €105 million) was the biggest transfer in football history. I think people tend to forget the fact that we did everything possible to get Pogba and deliver him to Mourinho, we were supposed to be challenging for the PL and CL with these new additions to the squad.
I always struggle with the point that players around him aren’t up to it so it’a dragged pogba down.
Grealish and Kalvin Phillips are 2 players which to me show their quality regardless of what’s around them and have elevated their teams, as has Bruno.
Not really. Firstly, it was not a comparison of their pure contribution in, say, goals or assists — but rather a comparison of their influence and overall role in our squad. Pogba was signed to be our main star around whom the new United would be built. He failed to become such a figure — Bruno did it instantly. Secondly, Pogba was played a lot in a number 10 and the furtherest CM in a three role before Bruno came in, which is pretty much where Bruno shines now.Kind of weird how Pogba and Bruno don't even play the same role, and how we buy players to improve the quality of the squad/help others, and when they do just that, fans get on a message board to say "Bruno puts Pogba to shame".
Cavani is putting AWB to shame
As I've said, the criticism of Pogba is often over the top, but he doesn't help himself with his & Raiola's statements as well as his on the pitch attitude and reluctance to take the charge of the team (something that he was quite literally signed for). I wonder how his transfer would've worked out if we've had a senior figure to guide him and the rest of the team (I'm not talking about Rooney in decline) & push him to perform better — it's not a coincidence that Pogba's best prolonged spell happened when Ibrahimovic took most of the spotlight off him.
Kalvin Phillips doesn't belong in the same breath as Grealish or Fernandes, he's the textbook definition of "flatters to deceive".
That wasn’t really my point and this debate is probably for another thread.
Agreed.
Put simply, your top few highest paid players are supposed to play at a level that justifies them being starters virtually every game. For a top table/top spending team, those top paid players should also be generally ahead of the majority of other players in the league at that position. Whether that player is a DM, AM, CB, Winger or Striker.
Pogba isn't even justifying being a starter, much less being one of the best midfielders in the league. That is always a recipe disappointment.
Pogba isn't even justifying being a starter, much less being one of the best midfielders in the league. That is always a recipe disappointment.
any chance of getting De Ligt from Juve?
Of course you can compare Bruno to Pogba. Both are midfielders who are meant to be creative outlets. Utter nonsense there's nothing comparable between them.
It's easy to forget how close this came to being true... We were second in the league.
I think it's a response to the lack of thought put into posts defending Pogba, such as "he needs better players around him". A very fair response is - Bruno walked in with the same peers and lifted the team with his sheer quality. Pogba might be a box to box role relative to Bruno's 10, but special players lift teams regardless of where they are. Pogba just doesn't have that effect outside of general glimpses.Kind of weird how Pogba and Bruno don't even play the same role, and how we buy players to improve the quality of the squad/help others, and when they do just that, fans get on a message board to say "Bruno puts Pogba to shame".
Cavani is putting AWB to shame
That's not to say he's a bad player, but he's no way an £89m player at the time we bought him. And he hasn't lived up to this valuation either.
If it was the plan of Pogba/Raiola to move in the summer and to Juventus...it makes his recent remarks even more stupid.
Coming out in Nov/Dec and saying Pogba's time at United is over is fine if Paul can move a few weeks later, but when his client still has to play for his employer for another 6 months its a bloody stupid thing to say.
Coming out in Nov/Dec and saying Pogba's time at United is over is fine if Paul can move a few weeks later, but when his client still has to play for his employer for another 6 months its a bloody stupid thing to say.
I agree
And if anything bruno has delivered what pogba was meant to. I would say the squad that pogba came into was probably better than the one bruno came into
Well he certainly is too expansive to keep him as a super sub. Selling at this stage is the only thing that makes sense.
I've never subscribed to the idea of building teams around players, my post history can attest, and I don't feel out current team is built around Bruno neither. Either way, I don't see football as a static thing, the team/quality players and circumstances around the time Bruno joined were different to ones around the time Pogba joined. For example, Bruno had the benefit of being deployed as AM and have a player of Pogba's quality playing in a CM position. Pogba had...Scheneiderlin?
Pogba has also gotten shouts of best player in the league while here and when playing in a more advanced role [source]. He created a lot of chances for Ibra prior to that too. Pogba hasn't been this calamitous transfer people seem eager to turn it into (going back to my initial reply to this thread). I'm happy for him to move on/be moved on.
Ultimately, as I said previously, I agree with the overall sentiment of your posts. I'm just not with the "X doing well, puts A to shame" due to the variables/reasons I've stated.
That's kind of the thing – we didn't even build a team around Bruno and yet he instantly became the most integral piece of it (without whom everything crumbles). Bruno also plays a lot without Pogba — be it last season, when he had missed tons of games due to injury, or this one, where he is often kept on the bench in favour of McT/Fred/Matic/VdB... Yet it doesn't seem to affect him.
Completely agree with both points though.
Did we ever really have a "galactico approach"? I feel like this is a myth that wouldn't hold under inspection. We've always made signings with the intention of improving the players with the odd big money move for a few ready made ones.
I don't think there's ever been an extreme shift either way (aside from the no value in the market years)
Bruno came in while Pogba was still injured and has played brilliantly on multiple occasions, with Pogba being on the bench or not in the squad. Some would even argue that Bruno plays better without Pogba.