I can’t believe this thread already reached 6 pages while Varane‘s thread is only 2 pages.
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We won't know till we see Varane but I don't think it's hard at all to improve on Lindelof's passing efforts. Apart from a good long ball and looking comfortable, Lindelof doesn't have an effective passing game at all for the standard we require. It's not about technique or ability, it's about his personality and willingness to actually use it. By default, if Varane is willing and doesn't defer first, he will instantly be an 'upgrade'. Of course I'm not expecting Pirlo at the back. I just think the standard set by Lindelof is a fairly low bar and again people will be surprised at how fluid we may become in terms of 'playing out the back' (providing all the other factors exist e.g first team players available, up to speed in terms of fitness, tactics etc).You get a better defender. I don't think Varane will necessarily be better at playing out from the back though. His defending style is also more on the passive side (like Lindelof's):
As for the passive argument, that's fine. I think Varane's awareness and defensive mentality is still miles ahead in terms of shutting down chances. I hope/don't expect Varane back tracking attacking players 15-30 yards into his own half.
Really? Maybe you should spend less time posting in this thread then, given that you're the 2nd biggest contributor by a relatively big margin.
Pique wanted to leave and go to Barca so that was never going to happen.
This thread is ready to blow up the moment Varane makes a mistake.
May be you should stop to react people post then it will stop.
With a World Cup coming up next year I don't see him sticking around much longer after this season. Will be an okay third choice centre-back but should not be played against any of the more physical sides.
He will do well in Italy or Spain.
They’ve got 18 posts in Lindelof’s thread, while only 1 in Varane’s, and they’re still asking that question
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I’m a big fan of Lindelöf. Not in the sense that I think he is the best CB or the best we can get, nor at this point even one of our two best CBs.
I am a fan of his mentality of fighting back from difficulty, like when he had a horrid first six months and clawed back to be one of our most consistent players under both Mourinho and Solskjær.
I am a fan of his ability to read his coplayers, which has lead him to be a lynchpin of the Swedish defence which has played consistently above their individual talents for two championships/qualifications, and which has seen him play better than Maguire when teamed up with Bailley or Tuanzebe for instance.
I am a fan of his consistency. He has, like every defender, the capacity to make a mistake now and then, but almost any CB makes more costly mistakes than him. His ‘weakness’ for us is his top level, which is below the top level of Maguire and Varane. But he has been our most consistent defender for the last four seasons.
I am a fan of his no frills attitude,it’s always the team first, wether he is a key player for Sweden or is benched for a couple of games for Bailly. There is no difference. He is completely dedicated to the team’s best every single second.
Based on this, I think he is going to be the worlds best third choice CB for us the coming seasons.
I am a fan of his mentality of fighting back from difficulty, like when he had a horrid first six months and clawed back to be one of our most consistent players under both Mourinho and Solskjær.
I am a fan of his ability to read his coplayers, which has lead him to be a lynchpin of the Swedish defence which has played consistently above their individual talents for two championships/qualifications, and which has seen him play better than Maguire when teamed up with Bailley or Tuanzebe for instance.
I am a fan of his consistency. He has, like every defender, the capacity to make a mistake now and then, but almost any CB makes more costly mistakes than him. His ‘weakness’ for us is his top level, which is below the top level of Maguire and Varane. But he has been our most consistent defender for the last four seasons.
I am a fan of his no frills attitude,it’s always the team first, wether he is a key player for Sweden or is benched for a couple of games for Bailly. There is no difference. He is completely dedicated to the team’s best every single second.
Based on this, I think he is going to be the worlds best third choice CB for us the coming seasons.
No he hasn’t, this is pure nonsense. He wasn’t even our most consistent this season.
Him and Declan Rice's dad, not really posters wishing Lindelöf to step up to the challenge...
He'll probably still end up with 25-30 starts, so no need to start thinking about binning him off just yet.
As a fairly reliable guy injury wise, we can actually rest Maguire a bit this season.
And I dare say we'll play 3 at the back at times too.
As a fairly reliable guy injury wise, we can actually rest Maguire a bit this season.
And I dare say we'll play 3 at the back at times too.
Agree with some of this. People seem to think he's the only problem the defence has had but I suspect Varane will find out that his full back partners are prone to switching off every so often and being done at the back post with a cross.
I personally think Varane and Maguire looks the best partnership on paper but I doubt Lindelof will want to stick around playing second fiddle in his prime. He'll play for another Champions league club when he leaves which is more than Bailly or Tuanzebe (at this stage of his career) or Jones will do.
Would you mind be more specific as to wether all I wrote was nonsense, or if you think it’s nonsense that Lindelöf has been consistent, or if it’s just the one sentence you disagree with? I’m not sure who in out defence you think has been more consistent the last four seasons.
You may be right, but I imagine that with 50-70 games, and with bedding in periods, injuries, bad form, law suits, pregnancies, space travels and whatnot down the line, I think he’s going to get to play quite a lot as a third choice CB for us, in addition to the internationals for Sweden, so I can see him stick around.
Luke Shaw and Harry maguire have both been more consistent, I don’t think that’s even debatable
So that was your only beef? So you agree with the rest?
Shaws had bigger down periods during these last four seasons IMO, particularily during Mourinho, but even during Ole people where fat shaming him and calling for him to be sold (I know, says more about them, but still). Maguire only been here for two seasons, but his first half season here was below Lindelöf for me, then he came more and more into it, but then he was significantly worse for most of last autumn (after the Greece incident), before he grew more and more steady towards the end of the season. I think his best level is a level above Victor’s, but I think the Swede has been more consistent in the period Harry’s been here. Sure it’s debatable. Saying it’s pure nonsense, well, I guess you haven’t read Alice in Wonderland.
Lindelof Is the mistake that’s just been upgraded.
That's never really been the main gripe with him. We all know he's not aerially dominant and the weak side between him and AWB was a liability.
It was more the issue of us being counter attacked. We couldn't safe box teams in because he couldn't be dominant enough. He isn't tall enough to win headers, he isn't strong enough to fight the attackers off without fouling them, and he's not fast enough to beat them into the channels. Combine that with his non aggressive approach where he prefers to move backwards and contain - teams would break on us far too easily.
Varane will hopefully be able to fix the majority of that. His size alone means he will be a lot better in the air and strength department, he's definitely quicker than Lindelof which will allow him to be more aggressive higher up the pitch.
The only potential downside is he might not be as good in the box when defending in terms of positioning, but hopefully we won't allow ourselves to get pinned back so often.
First of all, I respect the reasons you like the player. I hope you extend that support to the likes of Fred, McT and in the past did with Fellani and Herrera because other than the parts I've quoted above, what you've said pretty much covers them as well.
As for bolded bits, he's been our most consistently available/fit defender, nothing more, nothing less and in that time he's never once been our consistently best centre back. Without needing to mention Maguire for obvious reasons, Smalling, Bailly, Rojo and Jones have all shown much more dominant defensive performances; the fact that there are all injury prone or have moved on is a separate matter. Lindelof's consistency to be available makes him a 'great' foil and that shouldn't be underestimated but as you've acknowledged, his top level or performances just hasn't been good enough. He's an available body just like Lingard has been an available body as an attacking midfield player for Utd; in my opinion it's a very low bar, which we really shouldn't be praising players for.
The costly mistakes shouldn't be a positive point for him because the ratio of other centre backs taking charge of duels/proactively impacting the game far outweighs what Lindelof brings; @Adam-Utd has very succintly pointed out his issues above.
As for your last sentence, we can all hope but again I think many people will be surprised by the gulf of quality once Varane comes in and I hope (!) the growth and consistency of players like Axel and Bailly as squad players will help people will reduce our reliance on this average player.
I respect you for recognizing some of my opinion even if you don’t agree with it all, and for having a different opinion as well. I do like Fred, Scott, Ander and Marouane, none of them stars, all of them made themselves useful often in spite of their leaders at the club and while spited by many of the fans. Ironically, if Ferguson were to ascend over our post-apocalyptic era and raise us from the ashes like a messiah at some point or other these last few years, I believe these would be players he’d have found a place for in his squads, like a Blomquist, a Park, an O’Shea or a Berg.
I do think, though, that Lindelöf has different qualities to them, and so isn’t covered by their example entirely.
My opinion is that you underestimate Lindelöfs playing intelligence, concentration and decision making if you think Rojo, Bailly, Jones or Smalling would displace him barring injuries. Solskjær and Mourinho have supported that claim by their actions I think, but anyway it’s my opinion. And of course, opinons are cheap, but it’s an honest one, at least.
I think you're overstating something, which is largely theoretical. For me it's similar to when I read people saying Mata 'has got the best touch in the club', 'our best passer', 'very good at interplay' etc when the reality is that whilst that may be true in a vacuum, for the last 4 years he hasn't been able to apply any of that because his legs have gone and he can't do those things at will. Lindelof can have all the intelligence and concentration he wants but it's of little use when he can't physically impose himself and affect the game. Nobody is expecting beast mode lock down defence but there's a very large gap between that and Lindelof's 'containment defending', which is simply backing off and the covering of space. Of course I'm oversimplifying it but the way it's being elevated as 'high IQ' or something else is bizzare. It's a low level stuff imo. The fact we seemingly have 3-4 other centre backs, who struggle with it, is not an endorsement on Lindelof; the failure is more on the club's recruitment and coaching/development.
Solsjkaer and Mourinho's hands were dealt by them because they didn't have anyone else available and the first chance they get, one wanted Maguire, one got him and then subsequently decided to upgrade on Lindelof. It's no shame to be replaced by Maguire/Varane but I'm not buying he's some high level underrated/misunderstood player. We've seen 4 years of that to know for sure.
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Never thought I'd read these magical words.
@Grande
This goal below sums up everything I dislike about Lindelof, and is exactly why he has been upgraded.
He would rather look good statistically and not be dribbled passed, instead allowing Lewandowski all the time in the world to cut in to his right foot and get a shot away. He's being covered by another CB, he should be getting MUCH tighter and showing Lewandowski down the line onto his left.
Essentially what I mean is he allows the striker to dictate to him, he's the lady in a dance partnership.
This goal below sums up everything I dislike about Lindelof, and is exactly why he has been upgraded.
He would rather look good statistically and not be dribbled passed, instead allowing Lewandowski all the time in the world to cut in to his right foot and get a shot away. He's being covered by another CB, he should be getting MUCH tighter and showing Lewandowski down the line onto his left.
Essentially what I mean is he allows the striker to dictate to him, he's the lady in a dance partnership.
Lewandowski has never fooled a good CB. Point well taken.
Seriously, the energy some of you spend trying to convince the rest of us how bad he is could fire up Chernobyl.
Love the guy. He will be a great rotation alternative for years to come.
Seriously, the energy some of you spend trying to convince the rest of us how bad he is could fire up Chernobyl.
Love the guy. He will be a great rotation alternative for years to come.
It's not who it is, it's Lindelof's actions.
How can you honestly say that is good defending? He lets Lewandowski do exactly what he wants.
Anybody with half a brain knows he's going to cut inside and get a shot away on his right foot, so what does Lindelof do? stand off him 5 metres and let him get a shot away
We've seen this stuff so many times at United, and clearly the coaching staff aren't happy with it either. You guys spend even more energy defending him which is frankly bonkers.
With a nick like yours,you’re probably well aware that oversimplifying is a theoretical move, while critical analysis is about seeing the concrete nuances. I prefer the latter, particularily in a chat forum, where analysis is almost all there is to be done.
After four years, we’re probably not gonna agree on the nuances of Lindelöf’s play, particularily as you don’t seem to see any of the qualities that I have recognized on a concrete level. Fair enough.
I wonder what you will think about Varane when he comes, if you’re in general sceptical about positional and containment defending.
Again @Adam-Utd above has given the best answer/example to what this so called Lindelof containment/'high IQ' defending is. People saying it's Lewandowski is missing the point because he has many previous of these situations before i.e non commital 2 metre away defending. Seville last year, Crystal Palace, Burnley etc are all just recent examples.
As for Varane, I will call it as I see it. I don't care what the label is, I want practical effective football. If Varane starts shepherding attacking players 15-30 yards into his own half and I don't see any improvements, I will be as critical if not more as the expectation will be higher.
Lots of complaints about Lindelof’s style that he’s following the attacker rather than “attacking” him, protecting space, etc. All in all it seems rather effective though, as the CB pair Lindelof and Maguire together conceded as little as 0.46 goals per game in open play (PL last season). At the same time we scored 2.25 goals per game so it wasn’t entirely down to a defensive setup.
Plenty of the people around here who complain about Lindelof’s way of defending don’t seem to have a clue how Varane plays.
Sorry, what?
That's even betterThey’ve got 18 posts in Lindelof’s thread, while only 1 in in Varane’s, and they’re still asking that question
Well, since we agree Maguire on form and Varane is better centrebacks than Lindelöf, let’s not fall into black and white arguments. I don’t like the Lewa goal, and get frustrated by that kind of goals against us. But let’s get real - those are not the kind of goals we often let in. That’s part of the risk game of positional defending - and please, let no one say they think this is only ‘theoretical’ or something, cause then I give up altogether - and it’s the same for Rio Ferdinand and Ricardo Carvalho as it is for Johnny Evans and Axel Tuanzebe. You’re not Vidic or Terry, nor Bailly or Jones. Good or bad, you’ll let some feign-and-shots past you; the question is how many. With Lindelöf in Bemfica, Sweden and United, it’s generally been few - that’s not his weakness. His weaknesses to me, compared to a player like Varane, is a little bit of speed, a little bit of strength, a little bit of jump and a little bit of sniffing the danger. Not much in each, considering the level we’re talking and the age difference, but enough to make a difference particularily on crosses/setpieces (our weakness) and against counterattacks (why we could press higher). He’s not weak in these respects, just not world class. Varane is. Apart from that, you’ll see Lewa do similar things to Varane, because of playing style.
Why are you still replying?
That example is typical of Lindelof's approach to defending though; it doesn't matter if it's Lewandowski because he will and has done the same against Seville, Crystal Palace, Burnley, Milan and Villa. It's not neccessarily about how many goals he 'directly' concedes, it's about how many chances/territory and momentum we lose because of his lack of presence to affect those situations.
I can 'accept' a player like Rio or Vidic letting in those type of goals because they 'make up' for that by dominating other opponents higher up the pitch, shutting down threats down the channels or having other really strong attributes. Can you say that about Lindelof? No. The constant defence of 'look at our goals conceded stat' or 'it's risk adverse smart positional' completely forgets the fact he's doing a very average all around job, the context of his team mate's performances and our tactics/formations i.e two hard working centre midfielders. He has Maguire and AWB either side of him taking command, tackling, intercepting and taking responsibility on the ball. Him not making an obvious mistake and falling back 10-30 yards waiting for cover is not a high bar to praise. Again I credit his ability to have that 'chemistry' within the backline and availability for us this past 4 years but I won't give him a pass on his performances.
As for Varane let's wait and see. Their style may be similar but as I have said before, it's about practicality and execution. Also I think you're being generous by saying Lindelof is only a 'little bit' weaker those aspects because if that was the case, he would be a very good player and that's simply not true.
Anyways I'm done in this thread until he plays a game. Happy to be proven wrong if he starts the season all cylinders firing.
Because you replied to me, but your post seems to be missing a word or two and was hard to parse as a result, so I replied with "what?". That's how this "forums" thing works, you know.
Unless you point is that you've been flooding this thread with posts because people are replying to you, in which case I'm 100% on board with no one replying to you ever again.
not a little bit though, its a lot more than "little bit".
but we are yet to see Varane perform for us to i am still reserving judgement.
I still think he’s a good player but people always prefer defenders with an aggressive style. Bailly has always had a **** for that exact reason.,
Defenders have different styles. An aggressive defender will sometimes concede goals because he didn’t protect the space behind or because he got dribbled. He might look stupid at times but never passive.
A defender who protects space, contains the sitauation or stalls it for the rest of the defence to catch up, will sometimes concede goals because he should have attacked the player /ball instead. He will not look stupid but passive.
In the end it’s a question about how many goals you concede, not the style. Personally I would also want one of each style in a CB pair. Personally, I also like the last man to contain the situation rather than attack to win back the ball/give free kick/throw-in. Sometimes it makes you lose momentum, but it is safer unless you’re VVD who is a master at both.
All in all we conceded so few goals in open play that this is a non-existing problem. 0.46 goals per game with Victor and Harry in open play is good. The problem was the setpieces where they conceded 6 or if it was 7 in their 26 games together. That’s too much. However that’s not entirely a CB problem.
This is a problem otherwise we wouldn’t have bought Varane. Let’s wake up. It’s not just about goals conceded. It’s about braking up play, your teammates having full trust in you, etc.
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