Christ, I'm not saying he would. I was replying to your reason about him having too much muscle if he did.
The RedCafe Boxing Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Futy vs Whyte and assuming fury comes through that we should in theory then get a unification fight with the winner of Uysk vs aj
After that I think fury might retire as unified champion... (presumably all the belts would get split again)... fury will probabky pop up in the wwe or go on a massive bender for a couple of years before popping up on YouTube to smash jake paul
After that I think fury might retire as unified champion... (presumably all the belts would get split again)... fury will probabky pop up in the wwe or go on a massive bender for a couple of years before popping up on YouTube to smash jake paul
That sounds quite feasible in all honesty.
Fury didn’t even know how to adjust to Wilder until the last round of his first fight. It’s a cliche now but maybe nobody could do It is because he was fighting nobodies up until Ortiz who out boxed Wilder every bit as good as Tyson did until she caught up with him in the home stretch?
Let’s not forget that this isn’t Fury’s style. I’ll bet any money he won’t swarm opponents like this in the future since other top HWs can box from the back foot.
He also got beaten up by Ortiz, and would've lost, if Ortiz didn't have the stamina of a 90- year-old heavy smoker.
By any definition he is exactly that. Does he have one punch power though? Yes, but after Fury taking a few even that might be slightly overrated.
Who’s he fought that’s even in the top 10? Yup, one fighter and got absolutely battered each time, knocked out twice by pillow hands.
This isn’t new information on Wilder, many have called it for years, the second he steps in with real quality he has a puncher’s chance and nothing more, he’ll be utterly schooled. Now we’ve been proven correct three times against the only top boxer he’s faced, and plenty are confident the same will happen if he steps in vs. AJ, Usyk, Whyte.
Which boxers are these? Despite having 45 fights on his record he's only ever fought 3 boxers in the top 10. Prior to fighting Fury he could barely got 5k people to turn up to his fights. Most Americans wouldn't have even been able to tell you who he was. There was a reason for that. He was considered a bit of a joke before he fought Fury.
AJ punches almost as hard as Wilder and is a markedly better boxer. Wilder will always have that knockout power, but he's never going to be favoured against AJ.
Yeah that seems very plausible. He seems the type, great talker, loves a costume and a bit of pantomime
We’ve called it way before the Fury fights pal, it’s always been obvious he’s an utterly shite boxer with a big punch. Here’s me in 2017…
I also said this before he ever fought Fury and some dafties were tipping him to beat Tyson:
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I presume the next round of fights will be Usyk vs Joshua and Fury vs Whyte, provide Whyte beats Wallin.
If the champs retain, then you’ll never get a better chance of unifying the heavyweight division than in Autumn 2022.
If the champs retain, then you’ll never get a better chance of unifying the heavyweight division than in Autumn 2022.
It’s still hard to know what he is. He’s had 45 fights, yet who has he actually beaten? Fury’s the best boxer he’s ever fought and he has failed to beat him three times (and the consensus is he lost all three). Ortiz is the de facto second best, then who is there even for third place? Breazeale, Stiverne, Arreola? He’s been a world champ for five years booking himself in complete isolation from the rest of the division.
I’m with you. Wilder has only fought one serious fighter in his prime, Fury, and he lost all three. We saw his true level in that second fight. Last night was skewed by one right hand in the fourth. Otherwise he got absolutely battered. Dangerously battered. The amount of blows he took to the head were genuinely frightening. I’ve never seen a so called “elite” boxer as east to hit as Wilder.
Fury is clearly the king of the division and Usyk is clearly the best technician. AJ is a bit of a conundrum but remains the third best HW out there for now. So much rides on his performance in the Usyk rematch, for which I think going in as an underdog will suit him better. The hype around him has been far too much because he clearly has significant deficiencies, but he’s now being massively underrated after a loss to an all time great, and possibly the best pound for pound fighter in the world.
Wilder by contrast is suddenly being overrated after landing one good right and then being a piñata for 7 rounds. Like having the ability to repeatedly take massive blows to the head is suddenly an elite skill that carries him to victory over Usyk or AJ. Yes, he’ll always have the power to knock down his opponent, but he’s also ridiculously easy to hit, and against someone with more power than Fury, is in just as much - if not more - danger of being knocked out. After the pummelling he took last night, I would also question his future ability, or even desire, to absorb any meaningful punishment.
I think it also has to be remembered that Fury’s optimal skill set is to use his size and to outbox his opponent with slippery defence and unparalleled head movement for a man his size. Traditional Fury would’ve outboxed Wilder to three unanimous decisions, and Wilder wouldn’t have laid a glove on him. But Fury fought the last two fights on Wilder’s terms, changed his style and made it a slug fest - all to Wilder’s advantage, leaving him with opportunities to hit Fury that he never would normally have had. The result - brutally knocked out in both fights. Battered to shit. By a man famously dubbed “pillow hands”, fighting out of his element, and away from home. Fury would never fight Usyk or even Joshua like that. He’d lean on Usyk all fight and exhaust him, and he’d simply outfox Joshua behind his jab.
The only way up for Wilder from here, is if he fights his way through the top ten, and I don’t think he emerges from that with a career intact. His best chance of a big pay day is Usyk successfully defending the titles against Joshua and he and AJ having a showpiece “best of the rest”, slugger fest. By that time though, he’s 37 and more beaten up. Furthermore, unless he changes his training and conditioning, he’s going to get consistently beaten by every top fighter. His right hand is ridiculously telegraphed, and he spent all pre fight talking up his bench press. Like adding upper body muscle was going to help him. He should’ve stacked muscle on his chicken legs, to withstand Fury leaning on him, and kept the rest of him light. Rubbish boxer, rubbish trainer.
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As a casual fan, I’d much rather see Fury vs Usyk as the next fight and unify the belts while the sport is still riding the wave. Maybe have Joshua vs Wilder as a rehab opportunity for both.
He's certainly nowhere near what you'd call elite at the skills of boxing. Apart from his knock-out power, what has he got?
Deontay Wilder: “I did my best,but it wasn't good enough tonight.I'm not sure what happened.I knew that he didn't come in at 277lbs to be a ballet dancer.He came to lean on me, try to rough me up & he succeeded." It’s not a fu*king tickling contest.
You can win a tournament with one elite skill, like Goran Ivanisevic at Wimbledon or save your granny house like Happy Gilmour.
How is that relevant?
He’s a good fighter and has freakish power which took him to the top, but as far a boxing skill he was always extremely suspect.
Fury really went beyond his own limitations to stay up and beat the s*it out of Wilder. Admirable.
That would be ideal, although I don't think Fury v Usyk would be much of a contest.
Wilder is one of the most charmless and deplorable characters in boxing and that's saying something. Fury has stains on his shirt too but at least there's some sort of self awareness and charisma there. I hope AJ can win his rematch against Usyk to really ignite the scene a bit but I doubt he will. Fury - Usyk will be a poor spectacle that Fury will win.
Yep. Dunno why anybody could think any different. Fury is all wrong for Usyk
As I stated twice already, I don't watch enough boxing beyond the marquee fights so I couldn't tell you the backstory of the fighters Wilder fought but my point is; I'm sure he didn't fight Richard and Mikey from the streets. He fought actual professional boxers that would beat the shit out of you or me if we got in their face outside a wetherspoons on a Friday night.
So if Wilder is as one dimensional and awful as people say, surely he would be like these fighters he has 40+ fights against and surely some of them would beat him?
Or maybe I'm wrong and these fighters are random blokes off the street, which would make boxing a bit of a joke sport.
But let's not get this twisted. I'm no Wilder fan at all and was rooting for Fury to beat the brakes off of him.
I just feel Wilders durability, plus his punching power would make the fight against AJ more than a formality for the Brit.
I find it bizarre that people still think Joshua can mix it with either of these. He cannot take a punch, doesn’t like taking hits and he folds when in a war.
it makes no sense to think Joshua can go into a contest with Wilder exchanging 1:1 punches, Fury has far more punch resistance and still got rocked and knocked down, his powers of recovery are in a different stratosphere to anyone in the division, which is something he, and only he, can factor into a fight like yesterday’s. Joshua is not getting up from the same shots, and even if he did, he’d be wobbly and ready to topple.
Wilder doesn’t need to outbox Joshua, he just needs to get exchanges going and with his greater endurance, chin and heart, there’s only going to be one winner there. Joshua was wary of a cruiserweight’s power in his last contest and backed off after feeling what Usyk had to offer… what do you honestly think happens when a heavyweight does the same thing?
Grouping Joshua with Whyte also makes no sense, as one’s a bulldog who will gladly take a hit to give one and fights almost exclusively on the inside - Whyte would give Wilder more trouble than Joshua, for me. Styles make fights, and that’s a worse contest for Wilder than Joshua who is the more static target and the more gunshy in outright exchanges.
The reason thoughts have changed after yesterday are pretty obvious, surely? Wilder showed the chin he has and the power still in his hands in a full-on melee; he can make the fight with Joshua ugly and scrappy and it’s questionable if Joshua even has the confidence in his arsenal anymore. His uppercut was right there for him last fight and was nowhere to be seen, and if he ain’t going to offer the detterents to keep control of Wilder, his less than stellar defence will be breached and he will be in a war he doesn’t have the heart or punch resistance for. There’s also Wilder’s punches round the back of the head and into the ear/temple area, we’ve seen how badly they affect Joshua, it wouldn’t take many of them to ring his bell. Wilder is worse off against the little, dumpier men who hit short and sharp and walk straight into their preferred range: Ortiz, Ruiz, Whyte where his big looping shots are not there for him, thats’s not Joshua.
I thought it was a 50:50 contest previously; if Wilder hasn’t fecked his own punch resistance off the back of this last fight with Fury, I don’t think it’s that anymore. Joshua would have to beat him clean and tidily I.e. not be involved in exchanges or a war, and I just don’t believe he has the tools to make that so - he has very sloppy moments in bouts and offers chances to fighters to hit him that he could not afford to happen with Wilder. Wilder isn’t a better boxer than Joshua, but he absolutely doesn’t have to be to beat him.
it makes no sense to think Joshua can go into a contest with Wilder exchanging 1:1 punches, Fury has far more punch resistance and still got rocked and knocked down, his powers of recovery are in a different stratosphere to anyone in the division, which is something he, and only he, can factor into a fight like yesterday’s. Joshua is not getting up from the same shots, and even if he did, he’d be wobbly and ready to topple.
Wilder doesn’t need to outbox Joshua, he just needs to get exchanges going and with his greater endurance, chin and heart, there’s only going to be one winner there. Joshua was wary of a cruiserweight’s power in his last contest and backed off after feeling what Usyk had to offer… what do you honestly think happens when a heavyweight does the same thing?
Grouping Joshua with Whyte also makes no sense, as one’s a bulldog who will gladly take a hit to give one and fights almost exclusively on the inside - Whyte would give Wilder more trouble than Joshua, for me. Styles make fights, and that’s a worse contest for Wilder than Joshua who is the more static target and the more gunshy in outright exchanges.
The reason thoughts have changed after yesterday are pretty obvious, surely? Wilder showed the chin he has and the power still in his hands in a full-on melee; he can make the fight with Joshua ugly and scrappy and it’s questionable if Joshua even has the confidence in his arsenal anymore. His uppercut was right there for him last fight and was nowhere to be seen, and if he ain’t going to offer the detterents to keep control of Wilder, his less than stellar defence will be breached and he will be in a war he doesn’t have the heart or punch resistance for. There’s also Wilder’s punches round the back of the head and into the ear/temple area, we’ve seen how badly they affect Joshua, it wouldn’t take many of them to ring his bell. Wilder is worse off against the little, dumpier men who hit short and sharp and walk straight into their preferred range: Ortiz, Ruiz, Whyte where his big looping shots are not there for him, thats’s not Joshua.
I thought it was a 50:50 contest previously; if Wilder hasn’t fecked his own punch resistance off the back of this last fight with Fury, I don’t think it’s that anymore. Joshua would have to beat him clean and tidily I.e. not be involved in exchanges or a war, and I just don’t believe he has the tools to make that so - he has very sloppy moments in bouts and offers chances to fighters to hit him that he could not afford to happen with Wilder. Wilder isn’t a better boxer than Joshua, but he absolutely doesn’t have to be to beat him.
Aside from the puncher’s chance, it would be a formality, you’re making the mistake of thinking surviving rounds with “pillow hands” Fury is some kind of big tick in his resume.
If AJ or Whyte for that matter hit him as clean as Fury did, and they will, because he’s that easy to hit and has been given wobbly legs by some complete bums, he’s not lasting anything, he’ll be fast asleep.
He stayed in that ring not because he’s got a great chin, but because it was pillow hands hitting him. He gets hit by Whyte or AJ like that (and he will because he’s a human punching bag) and it’s lights out.
As much as people slate Wilders record. AJ's best wins are against two 40+ year olds who he went to war with in Wlad and Povetkin. Wilder is a dog in any fight, not sure how much more he has to prove that.
He’s beaten Povetkin, Wlad and Whyte. Wilder has beaten no-one in that class, old or young. The only fighter of any real note he’s faced with famous pillow hands beat him when he hadn’t boxed in years, then bullied the shit of him and used him as a human punching bag twice.
I don’t buy the pillow hands at all - Fury is 20st. and been shown how to use the full torque of his body on his punches via Cronk, so much so, he’s gotten over reliant on his newfound punching power and forgotten he’s a fleet-footed boxer better on the outside.
Joshua has to stay in what is essentially the pocket to land on Wilder - his jab is the same range as all of Wilder’s most dangerous swings - where Whyte does not, and will not, as he’ll immediately close the distance unafraid of being hit on the way in, and tuck right in and make the fight what he wants it to be - the two of them aren’t comparable in this bout; Joshua, just by way of his fighting style, is in harm’s way for the majority of that fight where Whyte wouldn’t be.
Fury relied on his punch resistance to do what he did, Joshua doesn’t have that option. I could see Joshua doing [very] well in that contest until losing concentration and getting caught in a straight exchange, and from there, I’d expect Wilder to take control of the fight the moment it came down to endurance, resistance and heart basically the moment they started trading bombs.
Go and look up the story of Trevor Bryan. He’s the current WBA World Heavyweight Champion, but considered a joke. BoxRec rank him #30 in the division. You can go a long way in modern boxing being an OK fighter beating nobodies, as long as you, your manager and your promoter know and pay the right people. Now Wilder probably isn’t quite Trevor Bryan, but he’s another boxer whose credibility largely stemmed from a big number preceding a zero. Once that zero goes, people are going to start to question things if you haven’t really beaten anyone top tier.
AJ would have to make some serious adjustments to live with Wilder. Honestly AJ is getting hurt in that fight and I don't think he can take the power like Fury. There's no point measuring other fights based on the Fury trilogy as there's no other boxer, certainly not AJ, that can do what Fury does.
I think AJ would have been finished early by Wilder last night and it would be very interesting to see if Usyk could withstand proper heavyweight power, which AJ forgot to bring to the table.
I think AJ would have been finished early by Wilder last night and it would be very interesting to see if Usyk could withstand proper heavyweight power, which AJ forgot to bring to the table.
Agreed. Fury knew he'd have to take some damage to get him out of there again in style. He could have fought as he did in the first and probably won, but he knows he can blast Wilder, so why not do it. That should be applauded really. When he says he's a fighting man, he isn't joking. He literally could have took a points win and not got touched but opted to trade.
AJ is broken, the first Ruiz fight changed him for the worse. I think a fight with Wilder would be a borefest with AJ being afraid of getting hit and Wilder gassing out from wild swings.
Heavyweight boxing must be at an all time low if Fury is the best around. The greats of the past would eat him for breakfast.
Not necessarily. Fury's size. Jab. Chin. Heart. Mindset. Footwork. Head movement and ring IQ are all top notch. He could hang in any era and he would still be competitive.
Klitschko‘s era was probably the low point to be fair after a great late 80s and 90s. This era is far from the best but 10x better than the 2000s.
You really think so? He looks like a lumbering target to me.
Hard to think of a top not heavyweight since Lewis or Holyfield in the 90's.
if Fury wasn’t at the Kronk, it would be a place where AJ could make a real comeback, his current gym doesn’t look like it’s challenging him enough to be an offensive fighter and using his physical gifts, he also looks like he could do with a sports psychologist his confidence looks shot.