Matip himself used to miss entire seasons and looked dodgy, I think they are around the same level, with matip having slightly better form. When I looked at the lineups yesterday I genuinely thought they were missing one, maybe two key players at best. Harvey being the most obvious, and maybe firmino no longer at his best, but we were without martial too (to start anyways).
How much trouble are Liverpool in?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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They're not in any major trouble. They could do with some squad depth but last night they were without Matip, Konate, Thiago, Keita, Jota and Nunez. 3 of which are certain starters likely 4 this season with Henderson making way for Keita. Fabinho also didn't start for some weird reason. You'd say 1 cb, the entire midfield and 1 forward last night were not from their best XI.
Thats taking nothing away from United.
When all the first team are back and the witches leave the building Liverpool will be fine, they're still top 4 certs, though can't afford to give anymore ground in the title race.
Thats taking nothing away from United.
When all the first team are back and the witches leave the building Liverpool will be fine, they're still top 4 certs, though can't afford to give anymore ground in the title race.
They aren't in trouble, they just won't be as dominant and relentless as they have been in recent years. Their squad is aging and after giving absolutely everything last season and falling short at the very end that's gotta have an impact mentally and physically. They'll finish 2nd or 3rd
I'm sorry but isn't Keita, Thiago, Matip injury prone? is anyone surprised they are injured?
Also, weren't Liverpool fans the ones crying out that they have 2 players in each position and bigging up their squad?
From the starting 11, only 2 players injured would have started. Matip and Thiago.
Klopp still goes with Fabinho, Thiago, Elliot in midfield.
He started community shield with Diaz, Bobby, Salah.
Our midfield is a major concern - all a year older and all injury prone.
Having to start a midfield of Milner, aging Henderson and Elliot at Old Trafford is telling. And sure, we have a lot of injuries, but it’s not like no one could have predicted them.
Counting on Bellingham next summer is big gamble, imo.
Having to start a midfield of Milner, aging Henderson and Elliot at Old Trafford is telling. And sure, we have a lot of injuries, but it’s not like no one could have predicted them.
Counting on Bellingham next summer is big gamble, imo.
Apparently, Fabinho wasn't fully fit.
It will be a very tricky season for them though, as Fabinho, VVD, Salah, Thiago are 31.
The midfield is primarily their issue, all 3 quality midfielders are injury prone. As you said, they would do with a bit of squad depth, but they'll be just fine if they can stay fit.
Yeah but this thread is about how much trouble Liverpool are in not how much trouble United are in.
With Thiago, Jota, Keita, Matip and Konate etc to come back in (as well as the suspended Nunez) I don't think they are in that much trouble at all.
What the feck can we then say.. They have the best players in the world in all positions.
Will survive the drop this season.
Dont think they are in trouble, at least if the expectations is top 4. They will be top 2 team this season.
Didn´t they spend all their budget on Darwin Darwin Nunez, that came to the Big Reds.
No? Well I'm not anyway?
I don't really know what Liverpool fans were saying to be honest but just cause Liverpool fans say something doesn't make it reality (for me) or worth thinking about seriously.
There are plenty of delusional fans in every fan base so I don't tend to get worked up about what they say.
But if they do say that they have 2 players for the RCB position (Matip andd Konate) and they are both injured it's going to have an effect , same in LCM (Thiago and Keita) or at CF etc etc.
I've already said they need Midfield investment (and have done since Gini Wijnaldum left) , if you go back to this time last year the exact same discussion was happening because their injury prone midfielders happened to get injured around the same time after they let their only consistently fit one (Wijnaldum) leave.
They need a new midfield.
I do think it's quite possible they've come to the end of their cycle, in which case Klopp may also leave within 1-2 seasons. The squad needs quite a lot of refreshment though obviously they still have some great players
If United manage to make top 4 and we don’t get de Jong, then we’ll be providing stiff competition for Bellingham. I wouldn’t underestimate the Sancho and Rashford factors as well, if they manage to have good seasons. All of this may make United an attractive prospect for Bellingham next season.
FSG's lack of spending is finally catching up to them. They've always had a really low net spend compared to most of other top 6.
That said their transfer activity this window has been especially crap:
- The biggest regression is losing Mane, who for me is easily the most talented player in that Liverpool team. They could've won the league last year if they got Diaz in earlier as they badly needed rotation for the front 3 - Mane, Jota and Salah played most games, 3 games a week. What do they do once they get Diaz in? They sell Mane, losing the depth and more importantly losing a far better player than Diaz.
- Spent £80m on a striker who will get goals but is the complete antithesis to Firmino who was also a crucial part of how they play and their CL/PL winning teams. Which means they'll struggle to create even more now, as both Mane and Firmino were very good creators and have been replaced by lesser players.
- No midfield signings despite most of their midfielders being 30+ or injury prone.
I don't think it's a surprise they're struggling, they'll be in a top four scrap this season. For all the good squad building Klopp has done, often it's the rebuild that's the undoing of great teams.
That said their transfer activity this window has been especially crap:
- The biggest regression is losing Mane, who for me is easily the most talented player in that Liverpool team. They could've won the league last year if they got Diaz in earlier as they badly needed rotation for the front 3 - Mane, Jota and Salah played most games, 3 games a week. What do they do once they get Diaz in? They sell Mane, losing the depth and more importantly losing a far better player than Diaz.
- Spent £80m on a striker who will get goals but is the complete antithesis to Firmino who was also a crucial part of how they play and their CL/PL winning teams. Which means they'll struggle to create even more now, as both Mane and Firmino were very good creators and have been replaced by lesser players.
- No midfield signings despite most of their midfielders being 30+ or injury prone.
I don't think it's a surprise they're struggling, they'll be in a top four scrap this season. For all the good squad building Klopp has done, often it's the rebuild that's the undoing of great teams.
We are not really in a lot of trouble, unless you define that as "not competing for the title this season" or something like that.
I remember when people were arguing that City were coming to the "end of a cycle" with aging players like Kompany, Zabaleta, Demichelis, Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero and what else. They've basically always stayed competitive bar Liverpool's title season and have now all successfully replaced those aging players with players young enough to be competitive for the foreseeable future. Of course they can splash more cash so it doesn't matter to them if some of their transfers are misses.
I think it's entirely reasonable to argue that we also have reached the end of our "cycle", but there are signs that we are looking at the long term, e.g. signing Fabio Carvalho who's nowhere near the finished product, giving Harvey Elliott (still only 19 years old) game time, and signing a raw player with Nunez. If they get more comfortable and develop properly, we could have a new quality core to compete for a few years. That's of course not without risk because other players will have aged even further by the time they would potentially be good enough to be deciding players for a title-winning squad.
If you don't look at the big picture but let's say yesterday's game, it's easy to see where our struggles this season will come from: Elliott (not yet) and Henderson, Milner and Firmino (not anymore) are barely material for a top-4 contender, let alone a title contender imo. We miss direct play from midfield, we miss someone creating opportunities in dangerous areas of the pitch for Diaz and Salah, we miss a proper DM, we miss a striker running in behind when we have to play with those guys. Couple that with the fact that VVD (and by extension our entire defense) has started the season poorly, we were bound to have a poor start to the season, although I think no one predicted it would be this bad.
Either we continue to struggle for a little while and the title will firmly be out of sight in a couple of weeks, or we turn things around right now and we'll be somewhere in the top 4 by the end of September. Five of our next six games are winnable ones and four of them are at home, of course no game is easy if you're struggling but we'll see how it goes. But anyone suggesting we are suddenly in major trouble after losing our first PL game of the calendar year is just a tad reactionary.
I remember when people were arguing that City were coming to the "end of a cycle" with aging players like Kompany, Zabaleta, Demichelis, Fernandinho, Silva, Aguero and what else. They've basically always stayed competitive bar Liverpool's title season and have now all successfully replaced those aging players with players young enough to be competitive for the foreseeable future. Of course they can splash more cash so it doesn't matter to them if some of their transfers are misses.
I think it's entirely reasonable to argue that we also have reached the end of our "cycle", but there are signs that we are looking at the long term, e.g. signing Fabio Carvalho who's nowhere near the finished product, giving Harvey Elliott (still only 19 years old) game time, and signing a raw player with Nunez. If they get more comfortable and develop properly, we could have a new quality core to compete for a few years. That's of course not without risk because other players will have aged even further by the time they would potentially be good enough to be deciding players for a title-winning squad.
If you don't look at the big picture but let's say yesterday's game, it's easy to see where our struggles this season will come from: Elliott (not yet) and Henderson, Milner and Firmino (not anymore) are barely material for a top-4 contender, let alone a title contender imo. We miss direct play from midfield, we miss someone creating opportunities in dangerous areas of the pitch for Diaz and Salah, we miss a proper DM, we miss a striker running in behind when we have to play with those guys. Couple that with the fact that VVD (and by extension our entire defense) has started the season poorly, we were bound to have a poor start to the season, although I think no one predicted it would be this bad.
Either we continue to struggle for a little while and the title will firmly be out of sight in a couple of weeks, or we turn things around right now and we'll be somewhere in the top 4 by the end of September. Five of our next six games are winnable ones and four of them are at home, of course no game is easy if you're struggling but we'll see how it goes. But anyone suggesting we are suddenly in major trouble after losing our first PL game of the calendar year is just a tad reactionary.
They'll be fine but the Mane / Salah / Firmino / VVD cycle has ended.
They are trying to reinvent it with new guys like Diaz, Nunez etc. Let's see if they can manage it.
Only need to replace Mane, Salah, Firmino, VVD, Thiago, Henderson, Milner in the next year or two. No stress.
They are trying to reinvent it with new guys like Diaz, Nunez etc. Let's see if they can manage it.
Only need to replace Mane, Salah, Firmino, VVD, Thiago, Henderson, Milner in the next year or two. No stress.
The issue is Bellingham will pretty much blow your transfer budget and you have a number of areas you need to strengthen
Still no idea why you spent £85m on Nunez.
Should have got someone cheaper and used the rest in a midfielder
Replacing great players is one thing, replacing the mentality of those players is very close to impossible.
Diaz, Nunez, Carvaleho are great talents, but to get to the level of peak Mane, Salah, Firmino is not going to happen.
He was a total panic buy because they felt they had to respond to us signing Haaland. It felt obvious at the time
Without Thiago their midfield looks very, very average. Milner is old and Jordan Horrenderson is not all that.
This could be similar to their 20/21 season, when they ended up with 69 points.
This could be similar to their 20/21 season, when they ended up with 69 points.
I still think They will make top 4.
The World Cup break is interesting though, and could end up throwing egg on their face considering how exhausted they already look.
The World Cup break is interesting though, and could end up throwing egg on their face considering how exhausted they already look.
New RBSo where we. Casemiro,De Jong,Anthony and our new RB whoever he is.
I'd add Konate to the injury prone list too. He is a very good defender but even back in the Leipzig days he missed a lot of games and even when he is fit Klopp seems to only use him in selected bigger games to preserve his fitness.
I’d hope and expect we’ll be in for Bellingham as well as loads of others. Need CL football first I imagine. Especially if we don’t get FDJ.
It’s interesting to think of the heavy metal football analogy - pressing etc. like if United played every game like last night we’d be banjaxed in no time. Is ‘heavy metal’ football sustainable? Maybe for a few years, then people age, motivation wanes, injuries accumulate….
You guys were always signing players who was about to hit their peak - Mane, Salah , Firminho , VVD,Robertson etc. Now the players you have mentioned is small kids who will need many more years to develop. The same mistake which United has been doing (still doing btw) . To me, it's even more riskier . Could go either ways but can't expect an immediate result either.
I think it may actually work in their favor due to the fact some of their players aren't going (Salah, Diaz, Robertson, Matip, etc), aren't guaranteed starters (TAA, Henderson , Konate, Thiago, Jota Nunez) or probably won't be selected (Elliot, Carvalho, Gomez etc).
United used to play like that under SAF and nobody mentioned heavy metal football. It's just stupid new buzz words.
This is why I was in two minds about how the break would fare for them at the same time, very good post and points made.
I see no serious problems. Right now Van dijk being off the boil, Darwin's idiotic suspension, a long injury list and poor tactics from klopp are biting.
I expect Van dijk too soon be back to normal. I also expect Klopp to stop setting up to maximise the team weaknesses whilst his injury list is large. Yesterday he offered no protection to TAA his most important supply line to his attack. Whilst weakening that side of the team further by playing an old Milner and a rusty Gomez on that side. He cuts that out, even with players missing Pool will be alright
I expect Van dijk too soon be back to normal. I also expect Klopp to stop setting up to maximise the team weaknesses whilst his injury list is large. Yesterday he offered no protection to TAA his most important supply line to his attack. Whilst weakening that side of the team further by playing an old Milner and a rusty Gomez on that side. He cuts that out, even with players missing Pool will be alright
Yes, I think they're in huge trouble, if the measure is top 2.
The front cannot buy a goal like they used to with movement, Nunez isn't the type of player that can operate in tight spaces. Unless poor first touch counts as deliberate. They're reliant on Salah, if he's marked out of the game they're struggling.
Who was it in commentary yesterday that said their midfield looks like old men. That is part of the issue, they're capable of quality but, they're pretty much done. When was the last time Henderson played a full game? They seem aways injured.
The defence is a big problem, TAA is weak, Robbo they keep taking off like he cannot last a full game, VVD seems to have lost something. They don't have a consistent sidekick for VVD.
They have a quality keeper.
They don't have the money to replace 3/4 players, and they can only dream of Bellingham
The front cannot buy a goal like they used to with movement, Nunez isn't the type of player that can operate in tight spaces. Unless poor first touch counts as deliberate. They're reliant on Salah, if he's marked out of the game they're struggling.
Who was it in commentary yesterday that said their midfield looks like old men. That is part of the issue, they're capable of quality but, they're pretty much done. When was the last time Henderson played a full game? They seem aways injured.
The defence is a big problem, TAA is weak, Robbo they keep taking off like he cannot last a full game, VVD seems to have lost something. They don't have a consistent sidekick for VVD.
They have a quality keeper.
They don't have the money to replace 3/4 players, and they can only dream of Bellingham
Like most things in life it's all about cycles.
The weather, the stock market etc etc.
Liverpool have an ageing squad and it looks like their period of domination is coming to an end. Of course they can mitigate this, but it's very unlikely they can replace their best players who would go on to perform at a similar level/functioning unit.
Time will tell, but I think Liverpool will drop off and become part of the "top 6" whilst City is the only outlier for the time being.
The weather, the stock market etc etc.
Liverpool have an ageing squad and it looks like their period of domination is coming to an end. Of course they can mitigate this, but it's very unlikely they can replace their best players who would go on to perform at a similar level/functioning unit.
Time will tell, but I think Liverpool will drop off and become part of the "top 6" whilst City is the only outlier for the time being.
I'm not sure it's fair to say SAF was as into pressing as a Klopp team.
Well they didn’t do that. Dude cost £64m.
You could well be right. In any case, putting all our eggs in that basket is risky.
Midfield is our number one concern. Defense is sorted and if Nunez finds his feet, so is the attack (although I’d like an additional wide forward).
But there’s no guarantee we’ll even get Bellingham next summer.
They're finished tbh. Sad
Don't think they in mas trouble.
But I reckon they be off the pace a fair bit this season. Maybe a season like the one they had a few years ago where they got into the top 4 at the end of the season
But I reckon they be off the pace a fair bit this season. Maybe a season like the one they had a few years ago where they got into the top 4 at the end of the season
Liverpool midfield has always been quite poor. People just havent realized it because their defence and attack were world class. In Klopps reign, they've never had a dominant midfield, its always been dogged and workman like but never creative, which was fine when their front 3 were the best in the world and their full backs were running the game. Now those same midfielders dont have the legs anymore, their full backs look knackered and their attack has been completely changed and weakened in my view. They should have just paid Mane what he deserved rather than most of the team being on more than him. Their attack look average without him. VVD has also been total garbage never the same player since the injury. Now he just sticks his butt out. The trouble with dropping too many points right at the start of the season is that players can be psychologically affected, and suddenly the relentless winning attitude goes. In recent seasons this Liverpool side have gone above and beyond with so many tight, late victories.
Make no mistake if they keep the team as it stands now, they wont be getting top 4 thats for sure. Liverpool right down the table next to their neighbors.
Make no mistake if they keep the team as it stands now, they wont be getting top 4 thats for sure. Liverpool right down the table next to their neighbors.