Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Buster15]

Yes of course. We do share the same views in the main. In my job as well it was not based on emotion, not even this , although it is sad to see. The last thing you do in trade is put up barriers - there are more and more going up still. I am so sick of the lies and the gullibility of people. But hoping that all these problems are going to go away on their own, it's not happening.

Agree with that.

 

[Maticmaker]

Paul used to be the voice of reason in here against the brexiteers. Now the brexiteers are all gone on he looks a bit mad.

Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?

 

[Buster15]

Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?

You are right.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?

I am only talking about the way forward but people don't seem to like it. This thread I see as more of the news of what is happening but maybe the solution is to stick your fingers in your ears and find another reason why the Uk is in so much mess. The Brexiters have cleared off years ago after losing every single argument.

Anyone who thinks that Brexit is done and this is the worst it gets then there's such a shock coming. Which is why the Uk needs someone with some guts to deal with it. Starmer is not that person.

Everyone seems frightened of the big bad Brexiter whom nobody must upset. 7 years of this feebleness and it's still going on.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I am only talking about the way forward but people don't seem to like it. This thread I see as more of the news of what is happening but maybe the solution is to stick your fingers in your ears and find another reason why the Uk is in so much mess. The Brexiters have cleared off years ago after losing every single argument.

Anyone who thinks that Brexit is done and this is the worst it gets then there's such a shock coming. Which is why the Uk needs someone with some guts to deal with it. Starmer is not that person.

Everyone seems frightened of the big bad Brexiter whom nobody must upset. 7 years of this feebleness and it's still going on.

On here, you are largely preaching to the choir. We know Brexit is self-sabotage and we knew that in 2016. But there are no votes to be had in pointing that out as voters in favour of rapprochement with the EU will not vote Tory anyway, while, in some seats, such talk might repel voters. It would certainly give the right-wing press a line of attack on Starmer as a metropolitan elitist EU fanatic. Therefore, in the real world, the best Labour can do on Brexit as an electoral strategy is to neutralise it (who can attack “make Brexit work”?) in order to obtain power with a decent majority and then to try to “limit the damage“ (obviously a less attractive slogan). Beyond that, I don’t know what he can realistically propose in order to achieve power, without which Labour is back to the oppositionist posturing of the Corbyn era. Once in power, it’s a different story and I do take solace from the fact that Starmer is not an idiot and must realise that re-establishing better relations with the giant bloc on our doorstep is an indispensable part of trying to restore the country. Maybe after winning an election and with the authority that comes with being PM, he can at some point start to have a more frank discussion with the electorate. Until then, all that matters is getting the UKiP entryists out of office.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

On here, you are largely preaching to the choir. We know Brexit is self-sabotage and we knew that in 2016. But there are no votes to be had in pointing that out as voters in favour of rapprochement with the EU will not vote Tory anyway, while, in some seats, such talk might repel voters. It would certainly give the right-wing press a line of attack on Starmer as a metropolitan elitist EU fanatic. Therefore, in the real world, the best Labour can do on Brexit as an electoral strategy is to neutralise it (who can attack “make Brexit work”?) in order to obtain power with a decent majority and then to try to “limit the damage“ (obviously a less attractive slogan). Beyond that, I don’t know what he can realistically propose in order to achieve power, without which Labour is back to the oppositionist posturing of the Corbyn era. Once in power, it’s a different story and I do take solace from the fact that Starmer is not an idiot and must realise that re-establishing better relations with the giant bloc on our doorstep is an indispensable part of trying to restore the country. Maybe after winning an election and with the authority that comes with being PM, he can at some point start to have a more frank discussion with the electorate. Until then, all that matters is getting the UKiP entryists out of office.

I don't think I am preaching to the choir. I understand you need to get the current government out of office. But what I would like to know is what Starmer's plans are for the many items I've listed on here because if they're not dealt with very soon it will be too late. I'm not talking about rejoining the CU or SM or the EU. Even better relations are not the priority but if certain laws or bills are passed it's a big problem. He hasn't got five years to sort this out.

 

[MoskvaRed]

I don't think I am preaching to the choir. I understand you need to get the current government out of office. But what I would like to know is what Starmer's plans are for the many items I've listed on here because if they're not dealt with very soon it will be too late. I'm not talking about rejoining the CU or SM or the EU. Even better relations are not the priority but if certain laws or bills are passed it's a big problem. He hasn't got five years to sort this out.

Labour are in opposition and can’t stop the the ERG scorched earth bill on their own - only Sunak and any remaining sane Tories can do that. As for the plans of a future Labour government, I don’t know what they are but, to repeat myself, there is no electoral upside for Starmer in explicitly setting out a position of closer alignment at this stage.

 

[Buster15]

On here, you are largely preaching to the choir. We know Brexit is self-sabotage and we knew that in 2016. But there are no votes to be had in pointing that out as voters in favour of rapprochement with the EU will not vote Tory anyway, while, in some seats, such talk might repel voters. It would certainly give the right-wing press a line of attack on Starmer as a metropolitan elitist EU fanatic. Therefore, in the real world, the best Labour can do on Brexit as an electoral strategy is to neutralise it (who can attack “make Brexit work”?) in order to obtain power with a decent majority and then to try to “limit the damage“ (obviously a less attractive slogan). Beyond that, I don’t know what he can realistically propose in order to achieve power, without which Labour is back to the oppositionist posturing of the Corbyn era. Once in power, it’s a different story and I do take solace from the fact that Starmer is not an idiot and must realise that re-establishing better relations with the giant bloc on our doorstep is an indispensable part of trying to restore the country. Maybe after winning an election and with the authority that comes with being PM, he can at some point start to have a more frank discussion with the electorate. Until then, all that matters is getting the UKiP entryists out of office.

My view as well.

 

[Buster15]

Labour are in opposition and can’t stop the the ERG scorched earth bill on their own - only Sunak and any remaining sane Tories can do that. As for the plans of a future Labour government, I don’t know what they are but, to repeat myself, there is no electoral upside for Starmer in explicitly setting out a position of closer alignment at this stage.

There are 2 conflicting views here.
1. The reality of the situation that is dictating the need for Starmer to have to play the long game - get into power first and then try to limit the damage going forward.
2. Paul telling us that playing the long game is not the right thing to do because by then, the damage will have been done.

To a degree, we on here are primarily spectators with almost no actual influence.
I believe that I understand enough of what Paul has posted recently to know that what he is saying is likely to be correct.
But I also believe that Starmer has little room for manoeuvre because of the toxicity of Brexit and until he is in power, is much like the rest of us. Having to watch and wait.

 

[4bars]

If labour gets in power (will see if dont mess up eveb with the big advantage they have), the tories will destroy them from the opposition saying that they are not implementing brexit right. Tories will be back for more than a decade blaiming labour for a bad brexit

 

[Paul the Wolf]

There are 2 conflicting views here.
1. The reality of the situation that is dictating the need for Starmer to have to play the long game - get into power first and then try to limit the damage going forward.
2. Paul telling us that playing the long game is not the right thing to do because by then, the damage will have been done.

To a degree, we on here are primarily spectators with almost no actual influence.
I believe that I understand enough of what Paul has posted recently to know that what he is saying is likely to be correct.
But I also believe that Starmer has little room for manoeuvre because of the toxicity of Brexit and until he is in power, is much like the rest of us. Having to watch and wait.

I understand both sides of the argument. What bothers me is that since the referendum or at least the GE in 2019 nobody wanted to mention Brexit and seemed to hope it would go away and have no effect. Wasted years - even if you can't do anything about - put the reasoning and explanations in people's minds. The Tories will trash as much as they can before leaving office, as Moskva said, the scorched earth policy.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Extracts from Starmer's speech today:

We need to be frank about the path of decline the Tories have set our country on. The British people are falling behind while our European neighbours get richer. In the East as well as in countries like France and Germany. I’m not comfortable with that. Not comfortable with a trajectory that will soon see Britain overtaken by Poland. Nor am I prepared to accept what the consequences of this failure would mean.

And here is the explanatory note from Labour defending this claim.

World Bank data shows that the UK had a GDP per capita of $44,979 in 2021 (latest available data) compared with $34,915 in Poland, and $33,593 in Hungary, and $30,777 in Romania.
UK GDP (Gross Domestic Product) per capita grew at an average annual rate of 0.5% in real terms from 2010-21, compared to 3.6% for Poland, 3% for Hungary and 3.8% for Romania.
Assuming these trends continue, by 2030, the UK will be around US$600 (PPP adjusted) poorer per person than Poland.
By 2040, the UK will be around US$12,000 and US$8,000 poorer per person than Romania and Hungary respectively.

Ahem, something hasn't registered in Starmer's brain.and then:


Q: How would you change Brexit to promote growth?

Starmer says “we are fooling ourselves” if we say Brexit is the only thing holding back growth. Growth was poor before Brexit, he says.

He says when he talks to businesses, they say stability is their priority.

But he does think there are improvements that can be made on Brexit, he says. They go beyond changes to the protocol.


No faith at all in this person. Seems so out of his depth. Maybe he could manage Chelsea.

 

[Abizzz]

Extracts from Starmer's speech today:

And here is the explanatory note from Labour defending this claim.


Ahem, something hasn't registered in Starmer's brain.and then:


Q: How would you change Brexit to promote growth?

Starmer says “we are fooling ourselves” if we say Brexit is the only thing holding back growth. Growth was poor before Brexit, he says.

He says when he talks to businesses, they say stability is their priority.

But he does think there are improvements that can be made on Brexit, he says. They go beyond changes to the protocol.


No faith at all in this person. Seems so out of his depth. Maybe he could manage Chelsea.

Look if your house is on fire do you want a pyromaniac to handle it or a incompetent fire chief? Yes neither is ideal but I know what I would go for.

Then add that he hopefully might just play incompetent to the crowd to get into the position of fire chief in the first place.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Look if your house is on fire do you want a pyromaniac to handle it or a incompetent fire chief? Yes neither is ideal but I know what I would go for.

Then add that he hopefully might just play incompetent to the crowd to get into the position of fire chief in the first place.

I don't buy the lie to get into power and then change it. If he gets into power, it's too late, what can he do several years down the line. The time to do something was over the last 7 years. his only contribution was 'we'll hold a second referendum and have a new deal within six months' or 'we will accept a deal with the EU if we have the same benefits outside as inside'. Pathetic.

'Businesses need stability' - yeah - that's what you had before Brexit. They also need to sell their products without barriers. Absolutely clueless.

 

[Buster15]

Extracts from Starmer's speech today:

And here is the explanatory note from Labour defending this claim.


Ahem, something hasn't registered in Starmer's brain.and then:


Q: How would you change Brexit to promote growth?

Starmer says “we are fooling ourselves” if we say Brexit is the only thing holding back growth. Growth was poor before Brexit, he says.

He says when he talks to businesses, they say stability is their priority.

But he does think there are improvements that can be made on Brexit, he says. They go beyond changes to the protocol.


No faith at all in this person. Seems so out of his depth. Maybe he could manage Chelsea.

But he was quite right about growth of the economy being poor before Brexit. It was.
Nevertheless, you may be right in your view of Starmer.
But out of the choices of him, Sunak or even Boris, I know who I would go with. Just look at what happened when Truss became leader.

And I doubt very much that Britain is unique in having a terrible batch of politicians. I mean just look at the US. Same for Germany. And is Macron really any better?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But he was quite right about growth of the economy being poor before Brexit. It was.
Nevertheless, you may be right in your view of Starmer.
But out of the choices of him, Sunak or even Boris, I know who I would go with. Just look at what happened when Truss became leader.

And I doubt very much that Britain is unique in having a terrible batch of politicians. I mean just look at the US. Same for Germany. And is Macron really any better?

It's the same argument as the Brexiters used. Growth was low but was improving after the 2008 meltdown; the argument was that the developing countries were growing at a faster rate. Of course they were because they started from a low base and they still will grow at a faster rate. It doesn't mean they can afford European goods at European prices. This led to the belief that the Uk could sell their products more to the developing countries than to the EU. What a mistake to make. And in any case the Uk were already selling to these countries; I did trade between these countries and all countries throughout the world for over 30 years. The Brexiters made out that their only market was the EU.

If you take out Trump, the US don't seem to have done so bad. Germany I don't know the current ones but liked Merkel. Macron may not be popular with everyone but he's streets ahead of anything the UK have produced in recent years. He's not popular with some because he's trying to make the average retirement age at 64 instead of 62. I don't think the men's Uk retirement age has ever been below 65 (apart from special jobs).

On the TV the other day there was an interview with a 39 year old train driver who said he didn't know if he could manage to drive a train until 54 years old (the new age) rather than 52 (the current one). talk about taking the p!ss.

Starmer may be better than the others but it's such a low bar.

 

[Abizzz]

I don't buy the lie to get into power and then change it. If he gets into power, it's too late, what can he do several years down the line. The time to do something was over the last 7 years. his only contribution was 'we'll hold a second referendum and have a new deal within six months' or 'we will accept a deal with the EU if we have the same benefits outside as inside'. Pathetic.

'Businesses need stability' - yeah - that's what you had before Brexit. They also need to sell their products without barriers. Absolutely clueless.

To be honest it's too late any way you look at it now. The time would have been 2014, 2015 and first half 2016. However we all know how that went, the snake oil men won. Their lies went unchecked back then and their promises have shown themselves up to be nothing but the toddler's dreams everyone with half a brain said at the time. The majority of the electorate has shown itself to be gullible and ignorant, or at the very least reckless in pursuing actual goals.

Starmer can't change any of that. And he isn't perfect either. But he could limit the damage. Especially when those in power now just keep adding to the damage and burying their heads in the sand.

 

[africanspur]

We may at last have a protocol deal, but we are no further away from Brexit’s poisonous legacy

Good news overall with the deal (and small wins like readmission into Horizon) , though can’t help but agree with this.

 

[Pexbo]

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[Paul the Wolf]

So a reworded Protocol which basically means the same thing with a little more trust and the suggestions the Eu made two years ago.

Will the DUP and ERG buy it? If not back to square one.

If the UK implement the Protocol and of course stay in the ECHR then they could take part in the Horizon programme which if it hadn't been for the ERG and DUP and Johnson they could have done two years ago.

Anyway the government still treating the electorate as imbeciles:
Sunak says being in single market and UK makes Northern Ireland 'world's most exciting economic zone'

How many will fall for this? Just think - just over two years ago the whole of the UK was in the "world's most exciting economic zone."

 

[golden_blunder]

Exactly this thread has become nothing but an echo chamber.
Brexiteers' believe they won (exactly what, many are not sure), Remainers keep on moaning, about losses which are not always clearly addressed (maybe come more so in future) but if VAR had been around they would be blaming that for the Leave result.
Surely all that matters now is the way forward?

Forward to Turnip!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Amazingly went shopping today, half a kilo of red firm tomatoes, whole pack of mushrooms and a beautiful firm red pepper all for a grand total of €3.63 - and not a trace of frost on any of it.

 

[Jericholyte2]

So Sunak just killed Brexit dead, right?

 

[Buster15]

Amazingly went shopping today, half a kilo of red firm tomatoes, whole pack of mushrooms and a beautiful firm red pepper all for a grand total of €3.63 - and not a trace of frost on any of it.

Same here. But not in a supermarket. The local green grocer. Red pepper was 69p, peck of plumb tomatoes £1.19 and cartoon of chestnut mushrooms £1.49. Ingredients for pasta.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Same here. But not in a supermarket. The local green grocer. Red pepper was 69p, peck of plumb tomatoes £1.19 and cartoon of chestnut mushrooms £1.49. Ingredients for pasta.

See, you've still got supplies.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I actually don't know what the Irish media are rambling on about. Any time I've gone shopping I've had no issues getting veg, loads of stock. It was far worse during early Covid.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So Sunak just killed Brexit dead, right?

Just put his foot in his mouth. Although it's still not quite true as for NI to sell to the EU their products have to comply with EU standards and there's still a border in the Irish Sea, but don't tell the DUP. Anything heading into the EU from NI or GB will also be subject to the checks and necessary paperwork etc.

 

[TheGame]

These people just take the fecking piss. They had an 80 seat majority FFS!

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[horsechoker]

What exactly does get Brexit over the line mean?

Brexit was over the line when we left, what does it mean to Brexiters?

 

[Massive Spanner]

What exactly does get Brexit over the line mean?

Brexit was over the line when we left, what does it mean to Brexiters?

Brexit means brexit.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

These people just take the fecking piss. They had an 80 seat majority FFS!

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The bewildering stupidity of everyone still continues. Does anyone actually understand any of this.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What exactly does get Brexit over the line mean?

Brexit was over the line when we left, what does it mean to Brexiters?

When the first unicorn is spotted overtaking you on the M25.

Try and find a Brexiter who has got even the vaguest idea of what they've actually voted for.

 

[2cents]

I actually don't know what the Irish media are rambling on about. Any time I've gone shopping I've had no issues getting veg, loads of stock. It was far worse during early Covid.

Just tomatoes and peppers seem to be an issue where I am, everything else is a normal.

 

[Gasolin]

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Does that mean that now the UK will / can channel all services, goods in Northern Ireland and make it some sort of EU market heaven? Maybe it's not that straight forward though.

I thought what Rishi Sunak was supporting was basically 2 trade relationships with Northern Ireland so at the end of the day, it changes nothing for Northern Ireland, doesn't it?

 

[TheGame]

Glad someone told this idiot to shut up and then she barks on about humility in politics when her and the man she shags Richard Tice have been stirring up hatred everywhere they go.

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[maniak]

So a reworded Protocol which basically means the same thing with a little more trust and the suggestions the Eu made two years ago.

Will the DUP and ERG buy it? If not back to square one.

If the UK implement the Protocol and of course stay in the ECHR then they could take part in the Horizon programme which if it hadn't been for the ERG and DUP and Johnson they could have done two years ago.

Anyway the government still treating the electorate as imbeciles:
Sunak says being in single market and UK makes Northern Ireland 'world's most exciting economic zone'

How many will fall for this? Just think - just over two years ago the whole of the UK was in the "world's most exciting economic zone."

Wait, is he saying northern ireland can be what the whole uk was before brexit?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Wait, is he saying northern ireland can be what the whole uk was before brexit?

Yes. He thinks so. But it has been since the UK left. Also it's not quite the same. Anyone with an eagle eye will spot the differences. Which is probably why the ERG and DUP will object to it.
The Stormont break I like which means that in order to object to any new EU law the DUP have to be in place in Stormont.

Endless discussions which will probably set the thing back to square one.

 

[Gasolin]

Wait, is he saying northern ireland can be what the whole uk was before brexit?

It can't be the same. He mentioned 2 channels. That's not the same as before. One channel that are for goods going to the EU will still be subject to full inspection, if I'm understanding it correctly.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

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I wouldn't count on it Monsieur Barnier . You should know by experience.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

It can't be the same. He mentioned 2 channels. That's not the same as before. One channel that are for goods going to the EU will still be subject to full inspection, if I'm understanding it correctly.

Goods from Great Britain (England/Scotland/Wales) that are destined for Ireland or the rest of the EU will have to go through the red lane when they arrive in Northern Ireland. Anything destined just for Northern Ireland from GB will pass through the green lane. This is subject to the UK providing the data etc to the EU.

A similar idea was suggested by the EU but turned down before. Anything produced in Northern Ireland that is destined for the EU has to comply with EU standards and have the necessary documentation.

A further complication will happen if the Uk change their standards. If goods are produced in Northern Ireland for the GB market (after the change) they will need to be certified for that market - if they produce goods for Ireland/the EU then they will have to be certified for that market as well. Double certification is costly and not such a blissful paradise.