let's hope the one who is not to be named takes his spot as RW next season then we're set in that position.
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Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 44
- Goals
- 8
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 8
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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He's been poor, but the more worrying thing is I don't see how he can improve overly much. Not a great dribbler, can't use his right foot, doesn't have great physical attributes. Would be happy to be proven wrong of course. very underwhelmed so far though. He works hard, which is something I guess.
I am not writing him off just stating that I doubt he will ever reach the heights of the best RWs in the league. He will improve but his lack of pace is his Achilles heel.
He’s 22 so can improve in almost every way you can imagine, apart from getting taller.
I am also underwhelmed by him and I have to wonder what it is about him that made us pay so much money for him. He would probably get the same criticisms if he only cost £50m but the expectation is higher because of his fee.
I’m in no rush to judge him.
He can improve in every way but he won't improve in every way that would be required to make him a top attacker. This is just unrealistic to expect to improve on speed, weak foot, strength, passing/crossing.
It's not common to improve significantly on some basic aspects like those mentioned. IMO in three years time we will still have posters commenting that he just needs to improve on his weak foot and speed. But like I said, this is just unrealistic.
Just to be clear this is what we paid 85m for so whatever happens with him (good or bad) is totally on whoever brought him to the club, I will never blame Antony for it.
You might be right. I don’t think he’s going to turn into Messi, for example. He could end up as a top attacker though. He’s already capable of very decent performances and can be a match winner.
He often disappoints, it’s true, but he is more likely to improve than not. Then the question becomes “how much does he need to improve in order to become a top attacker” and the answer to that might be “not a huge amount”. It is fine margins at top level. He can learn to get more out of himself and doesn’t need to be great at everything. He just needs to be effective more of the time. It’s too early to say whether that will happen but the odds are favourable imo.
As for where we are in three years, I think you might be mistaken. If he isn’t substantially better by then, he’ll get the same comments McT gets about not being young any more and never going to deliver.
Arsenal paid peanuts for Martinelli. Why do we keep overpaying for players who haven't done anything in the game? I don't get it.
£70m and upwards should be reserved for the sure thing. For proven world class players. And obviously even that doesn't always work out but at least you know what you're getting.
Paying 85m for a player who had a decent 18 month in a very poor standard league is absolutely criminal.
£70m and upwards should be reserved for the sure thing. For proven world class players. And obviously even that doesn't always work out but at least you know what you're getting.
Paying 85m for a player who had a decent 18 month in a very poor standard league is absolutely criminal.
And how exactly do you know his limits or any other footballer's maximum ceiling? There is a massive list of players who exceeded their so-called max potential or got rid of their deficiencies. Mahrez, for instance, doesn't use his right foot but the experience has allowed him to use his body to manipulate the ball and trick players to easily bypass and dribble them. You can dribble players by barely touching the ball, you know.
When he arrived at Leicester, he wasn't particularly strong (as few 22-23 year olds are) but strength can be built, and now he's not easy to push over.
Regarding speed, Mahrez is even slower than Antony so I wouldn't say that's a huge issue.
Let's just wait and see next season before you experts come out and give up on him after 1200 minutes in the PL.
I must say I don’t see why we were so keen to spend quite so much money on him but I still have some patience left.
We also got Rashford for free, and Arsenal paid £72m for Nicolas Pepe, a worse signing than Antony and not the sure thing. That's the football world these days. Clubs have more money, want to compete and don't have to sell so when they need to they demand a ridiculous amount of money.
It's the buying clubs' that ensure this trend isn't stopping anytime soon.
We see a player that has potential - better pay up. I mean Enzo Fernandez went for €120m because of a good World Cup and a few months in Portugal. Insane, really.
Who should have we bought for the right wing?
They also paid over £70m for Pepe..
United paid nothing for Greenwood.
The situations are near identical however United had no idea what was going to happen to Greenwood.
Antony is the only player in our squad that I made such a definite statement about. It's usually difficult to tell but for him I just see too many limitations in different areas. I might be totally wrong here and that would be great for United, but this is where I am at the moment.
The rest of your post is all about overcoming deficiencies, and that is possible, but very difficult if you're lacking in many important areas - and AT THE MOMENT that is the case with Antony.
If he was fast, lack of abilility on his weak foot wouldn't be that much of a problem (Di Maria is the closest one I think as he also runs a lot).
If he had a great passing ability on the left foot, his lack of pace (for a winger) wouldn't be a an issue (see prime Mata).
BTW after first 3 games we were talking about his great shooting, and now we're back to "if he improves his shooting..."
I don't expect him to improve significantly on those aspects because that rarely (if ever?) happens. He can get stronger, not sure if this is going to change a lot for his game really.
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The manager wanted him. It's literally the cause of our stupid spending every single time.
Happened with Maguire as well. Club didn't want him (hence they told Mourinho to feck off) but had to indulge Solskjaer when he wanted the same guy, because the fans/media threw their toys out the pram for not getting the year before.
If he can fix and become an accurate shooter, he will become a top player.
He just takes too many chances right now in an obvious way.
He just takes too many chances right now in an obvious way.
If anyone convinces him to not systematically target the top left corner than he should be okay. In almost every games goalkeepers have left the bottom right corner vulnerable at some point but he goes for the more difficult attempt.
Yup.
I think his dribbling is slowly improving. It’s very slow but I see some improvement still. Think he is finding the defensive tempo much harder in the PL so his skills and flicks are much harder to do than at Ajax.
First he needs to fix his shooting - he needs to target both corners and even the obvious left corner he takes better. If he can sort that out then he can focus on stuff like trying to beat his man.
He should have scored against Everton - made good runs but his finishing again wasn’t good enough.
I think you guys should in general be a bit more patient with new players. Antony was a very exciting player for Ajax and just came into a new and better league in a until recently pretty dysfunctional team that is still in the process of finding itself under a new manager. Not exactly ideal circumstances to shine. Especially not when you are used to playing in a team in whic everybody knew his role and what he was supposed to do.
The issue is not that he tries to go for the far corner as a lot of his shots imo are actually taken in good positions i.e where the far corner is an achievable target to beat the keeper. The problem is that he has an inconsistent shooting technique and approach to taking to the shot. When he's dribbling and running with the ball at pace to generate the angle/momentum, he needs to shoot it flatter/laces of the boot but he's trying to side foot it, which means he either needs to hit it perfectly or it's always going to be too weak or directionally off. When he's close to the keeper and he opens his body up, he needs to take a more full bodied shot but again he tries to side foot it with a flatter angle, which ends up like a pass.
Reminds me of Martial sometimes. Too much emphasis on side-footing and placement but not enough on trajectory but yes it would nice if he tried going for a more powerful shot at the near post too.
Going for the top corner is absolutely an issue especially when you do it almost systematically, it's the most difficult shot most of the time. And the fact that he has an inconsistent shooting technique should see you realize that it's an ever bigger issue because you need a flawless technique to target that corner all the time.
Martial is a totally different player and has generally been an excellent finisher with excellent technique, he may lack diversity but he is actually able to do what he wants at a decent rate, Antony isn't.
Would I prefer Antony to take less shots right now because he isn't capable of it (especially outside the box far corner ones)? Yes. Do I think his choice of shots are bad? No.
I know that is contradictory because a bad shot is a bad shot regardless of where it's taken but I like the outside the box threat and I think he's generally going at it in with the right places. It's just the approach and technique, which hopefully he can improve on.
As for Martial, of course he's in a different league when it comes to goals but I wouldn't call him excellent, period, with regards to finishing or his technique to it. He's shown many instances of excellence but has not shown enough consistency or has a large enough output imo; of course I'll take into account injuries and his inconsistent time in the team due to managers etc but that's another discussion. When I said Antony was similar to Marital, I should have worded it better but I'm talking very specifically about one small thing, in that he tends to emphasis on side-footing a shot after he's already created the space, which leads to a weaker or worse shot.
Again it's similar but in the opposite vein of someone like Rashford, who after the space is created, tends to go for power over placement and ends up being a snatched shot, which is more easily saved as it's in the keeper's central vicinity. Yesterday's game had a good few examples of that iirc.
We spent as much as Ajax were willing to let him go for. They weren't inclined to sell so we had to make them an offer they couldn't refuse. Also we were desperate and had the means to meet their valuation.
No disrespect to Antony though. I still think his game can be fine tuned massively. Like a young bonsai he can be pruned under the correct guidance and support.
Well, yes, but why were we so desperate to get him? That is the question.
I agree he can be nurtured and will bloom in time.
I’m no expert, but I feel like in a year’s time, many of you lot will be eating crow re: Antony. He will put it all together and be a nightmare for the oppositions to deal with. Just a hunch.
It's possible. If he was to sort his crossing out and switch it up from that far post shot when he comes inside he could be a very good player. My worry is that whilst he's new here, this is Ten Hag's third season with him.
MG often surprised the keeper with his low shots at the near post, I don't think I've ever seen Antony try a shot like that. Mix it up, pretty please.
Was he really a worse signing than Antony? Pepe got 11 Goals and Assists in the PL, Antony has 3 with 9 games left. In total Pepe ended his debut season with 25 Goals and Assists, and Antony is on 8. Even in his second season, Pepe got 10 goals in the league.
Assists and goals don't always tell the whole story. Antony helps a lot defensively and is great at holding up the play up until the other attckers are ready to get involved
I'm sorry but 3 goals and 0 assists tell a very clear story to me. Antony is not giving us the sort of performances that for example Firmino was giving Liverpool at their/his best.
That would be Amad
Btw you guys are hyperbolic as always in player potential. Last season the caf had convinced itself that Rashford wasn't even a PL level player.
Antony's game has two major issues: (1) lack of acceleration to get some space behind defenders (2) lack of variation, either in using different foot or shots etc. Both can be resolved in the next 2 years to some extent and his effectiveness can increase significantly.
Antony's game has two major issues: (1) lack of acceleration to get some space behind defenders (2) lack of variation, either in using different foot or shots etc. Both can be resolved in the next 2 years to some extent and his effectiveness can increase significantly.
! remind me in 2 years
We'll see how this goes. I think the belief that those two fundamental aspects can be significantly improved is very, very, very optimistic.
He's not an Academy player. He's been playing on senior level for 4 years, 2 years under Ten Hag. I don't understand why people think this will magically change now.
If you know Dutch you can probably find the exact same comment as yours made by Ajax fan 2 years ago.
EtH:
I don't hope for that at all - in fact, I'd be seriously disappointed if that happened.
Well I would leave the last para for a Ajax fan to comment on. But this myth that players only improve at academy level and not after is most persistent here.
If last season, someone told us that Rashford would run rings around defence of Spanish leaders and all top opposition, this place would have laughed them away! He was seen as a speed merchant with poor technical qualities. What changed? In my view rashford just became 100% fit physically and mentally. In the top end competitive sports, even 5% loss matters a lot.
Now if Antony is able to become fitter and thereby improves his acceleration even by 5% he would definitely be able to get past defenders. Right now he always loses the physical battle and never tries it.
On variation in the game, a key factor can be confidence. If he is not confident now, he will of course try things he is most comfortable in.
I am not saying that these improvements WILL happen for sure but to rule them out because he is outside a magical age for growth is not something I agree with.
I'm sure every player in the world would like to be faster and more two footed.
If it was relatively easy to achieve just through more training they'd all be doing it.
To learn how to carry the ball faster at his age is something I don't think can be achieved. It's too late. That has to be sorted as a kid. Even then its a natural thing. You can't really teach it.
The comparison with Rashford isn't really valid because before his dip he'd already proven himself at the top level. Antony hasn't.
What Antony can do is improve his decision making and composure. That alone would help a lot.
Rashford had 12 goals contribution (G+A) at the age of 19. 24 G+A at the age of 21, 20 G+A at 22. You are only mentioning this because last season was a disaster and frankly speaking I thought he wanted a change.
Rashford "top level" was never in doubt, it was more of "can he put this all together and be consistent".
With Antony the question is "what is his top level" and it's all about how much you think he can really improve on his limitations. It's a completely different story.
Like I said before, IMO it is VERY unlikely that a (not academy) player will improve significantly on weak foot and speed, therefore I just think it's a bit unfair to expect that from Antony.
Maybe the difference is I don't see Antony has talentless player but a frustrating player in that he clearly gets into good positons, has good movements and has strong technical ball skills, but a couple of big flaws affect his game. And some improvement in those would help him massively.
Your post makes it seem we have never had situations where a new player struggles in the PL in the first season and then is physically more adept in coming ones!
Rashford example is on point because while he had performed well earlier, he had never shown this level of performance earlier. And most people didn't belive he had it in him until last season. Hindsight bias?
Even when rashford was scoring we all didn't think he was all that technically and a poor dribbler. In hindsight one can always say we all thought he was a top player but just in a poor phase. More popular was the opinion that his 2019 form was a one-off and in reality he is an average player technically.
Course he has. Probably even better.
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