The only gripe I have with ETH is his rapid abandonment of the Casemiro Fred pivot as soon as Eriksen got back, especially when the former partnership was showing signs of dominating high intensity games when the midfield was genuinely contested, which is most of our top half fixtures especially away. I was hoping he would start rotating Eriksen and Bruno in the #10/attacking 8 position and continue with the Case-Fred partnership at the base. It seems he doesn't want to create a real challenge for Bruno's position in the team, which might be a sign of some weakness in the dressing room just to speculate, or perhaps something else he's seen in training.
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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Manchester United are reportedly keeping tabs on Wolves defender Nathan Collins.
After joining Wolves for around £20.5 million last summer, a report from Tribal Football claims that Manchester United technical director and former player Darren Fletcher is a fan of the defender and urged Erik ten Hag to consider signing the 22-year-old last summer.
United fans won’t complain about Ten Hag’s decision to overlook Collins because we ended up signing Lisandro Martinez instead. The Argentine became an instant fans’ favourite after quickly settling in the Premier League.
It is worth noting that Collins came joined the Stoke City academy in 2019 — the same year Fletcher hung up his boots after spending three years at the Bet365 Stadium.
After joining Wolves for around £20.5 million last summer, a report from Tribal Football claims that Manchester United technical director and former player Darren Fletcher is a fan of the defender and urged Erik ten Hag to consider signing the 22-year-old last summer.
United fans won’t complain about Ten Hag’s decision to overlook Collins because we ended up signing Lisandro Martinez instead. The Argentine became an instant fans’ favourite after quickly settling in the Premier League.
It is worth noting that Collins came joined the Stoke City academy in 2019 — the same year Fletcher hung up his boots after spending three years at the Bet365 Stadium.
“The horror. The horror”
[INT. DARKENED ROOM - NIGHT]
The room is dimly lit, casting long shadows on the walls. A ceiling fan whirs lazily overhead, its rhythmic creaking filling the heavy air. ERIK TEN HAG, a seasoned football manager with a haunted expression, sits alone at a worn-out desk, surrounded by maps and tactical diagrams. He flicks through reports, his brow furrowed with concern.
ERIK TEN HAG
(whispering, almost to himself)
The horror, the horror...
Suddenly, the door creaks open, and a silhouette emerges. It's a MYSTERIOUS AGENT, wearing a fedora that obscures his face. He steps into the room, revealing only his gleaming eyes in the shadowed face.
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(smirking)
Erik... we've been waiting for you.
Erik Ten Hag looks up, his eyes meeting the Agent's piercing gaze. He stands up, his voice strained but determined.
ERIK TEN HAG
(tense)
Who are you? What do you want from me?
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(chuckling darkly)
You're on a mission, Erik. A mission to restore greatness to a fallen empire. But the road is treacherous, and the forces against you are formidable. The time has come to embrace the darkness within.
The Mysterious Agent slowly walks toward Erik, revealing a dossier filled with classified documents. He slams it down on the desk, the sound echoing through the room.
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(slowly)
Study these, Erik. Understand the methods of your rivals, their weaknesses, and their deepest fears. Only then will you find the answers you seek.
Erik Ten Hag flips open the dossier, his eyes widening with a mix of shock and determination. The pages contain a wealth of information, strategies, and secrets.
ERIK TEN HAG
(hushed)
The dark side of football... I must go there. I must face it, embrace it, and conquer it. For the glory of the game. Heh
The Mysterious Agent's grin widens, his eyes gleaming with satisfaction.
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(whispering)
Yes, Erik. Embrace the horror. Let it fuel your drive, your ambition. Only then will you become a legend.
Erik Ten Hag nods, his face a mix of resignation and newfound purpose. He gathers the documents and tucks them under his arm.
ERIK TEN HAG
(defiantly)
I will do what must be done. I will lead my team through the darkness and emerge victorious. Heh
The Mysterious Agent fades into the shadows, leaving Erik Ten Hag alone in the room. Erik's gaze lingers on the dossier, the weight of the football world resting upon his shoulders.
FADE OUT.
Note: This scene is a fictional depiction created in the style of "Apocalypse Now" and is not based on any actual events or conversations involving Erik ten Hag.
[INT. DARKENED ROOM - NIGHT]
The room is dimly lit, casting long shadows on the walls. A ceiling fan whirs lazily overhead, its rhythmic creaking filling the heavy air. ERIK TEN HAG, a seasoned football manager with a haunted expression, sits alone at a worn-out desk, surrounded by maps and tactical diagrams. He flicks through reports, his brow furrowed with concern.
ERIK TEN HAG
(whispering, almost to himself)
The horror, the horror...
Suddenly, the door creaks open, and a silhouette emerges. It's a MYSTERIOUS AGENT, wearing a fedora that obscures his face. He steps into the room, revealing only his gleaming eyes in the shadowed face.
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(smirking)
Erik... we've been waiting for you.
Erik Ten Hag looks up, his eyes meeting the Agent's piercing gaze. He stands up, his voice strained but determined.
ERIK TEN HAG
(tense)
Who are you? What do you want from me?
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(chuckling darkly)
You're on a mission, Erik. A mission to restore greatness to a fallen empire. But the road is treacherous, and the forces against you are formidable. The time has come to embrace the darkness within.
The Mysterious Agent slowly walks toward Erik, revealing a dossier filled with classified documents. He slams it down on the desk, the sound echoing through the room.
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(slowly)
Study these, Erik. Understand the methods of your rivals, their weaknesses, and their deepest fears. Only then will you find the answers you seek.
Erik Ten Hag flips open the dossier, his eyes widening with a mix of shock and determination. The pages contain a wealth of information, strategies, and secrets.
ERIK TEN HAG
(hushed)
The dark side of football... I must go there. I must face it, embrace it, and conquer it. For the glory of the game. Heh
The Mysterious Agent's grin widens, his eyes gleaming with satisfaction.
MYSTERIOUS AGENT
(whispering)
Yes, Erik. Embrace the horror. Let it fuel your drive, your ambition. Only then will you become a legend.
Erik Ten Hag nods, his face a mix of resignation and newfound purpose. He gathers the documents and tucks them under his arm.
ERIK TEN HAG
(defiantly)
I will do what must be done. I will lead my team through the darkness and emerge victorious. Heh
The Mysterious Agent fades into the shadows, leaving Erik Ten Hag alone in the room. Erik's gaze lingers on the dossier, the weight of the football world resting upon his shoulders.
FADE OUT.
Note: This scene is a fictional depiction created in the style of "Apocalypse Now" and is not based on any actual events or conversations involving Erik ten Hag.
no offense but feck fred. Dude has one game in like 5 where he looks like a top midfielder, the rest he teeters on absolute nightmare. Not the type we should be using except rare occasions. Hope to see the back of both mcfred this offseason finally.
A few pages ago the discussion here was about how much should he be criticised for months that didn't even happen yet. Obviously it's the enthusiasm that's the problem.
Probably because last season was so freakishly bad it's hardly worth mentioning that our points total is better. A better comparison IMO is with the season before last. If we win all our remaining games we'll be 1 point better off than we were in 20/21. So in terms of league results we're still no better than we were in Ole's best season. He's brought us back to where we were more or less are last seasons shitshow.
I'm not criticizing Ten Hag btw. I'm happy with the job he's doing so far. Next season will tell us if we're actually progressing. We really need to getting more than 80 points every year.
If Ole could maintain his best periods or gave any indication that he could build on those, he would still be here. It's a bit odd using that as a criticism towards different manager.
I amended my post while you were replying. I'm not criticizing Ten Hag, I was just addressing the particular point that the points total compared to last season isn't a great metric for seeing improvement. Like I said, if he can build on it next year we'll know were really going somewhere. I think he can do it.
Points total comparison is a metric, but should be used together with other factors.
Some of our defeats/meltdowns can be attributed to mental and physical fatigue. The amount of games we have had to play is insane.
Take also in account the Ronaldo fiasco, injuries and suspensions of Casemiro, and Ten Hag has done as well as can be expected.
I predicted slightly overachieving this season, 3rd place. If we don‘t make it, I blame it on Ronaldo‘s childish meltdown.
Interesting that he says players now want to join us this summer after improvement. He’s obviously already spoken to some players about coming. He said last year players had doubts..
Fred is a type of player that is affected a lot by the game rhythm and team dynamic, and ours has not been consistent to say the least. He's fundamentally a team player and in the right set up, he would be a engine that is constantly busting a gut for his teammates and creating a lot of good transition moments. Lumping him up with McT as if they're on the same level is so ridiculously unfair in my view, they're no where near on football ability.
ive seen fred be way worse than mctominay. Mctominays problem is he hides way too much and just doesnt understand how to be a proper midfielder in my opinion. Neither are good enough to be here anymore. It has been long enough and he is 30, hes not getting any better. ship his ass out.
Deary me, there was a discussion? A discussion on an internet forum? That is surely unheard of. The keyword is polarization, mate. There will always be outliers who carry extreme positions. But only when the reactions cross a certain line and stuff gets personal then you see bigger division. I've seen people called brainless because they didn't subscribed to a certain level of praise that the majority of fans feels is "correct". Not the enthusiasm alone is the problem, if my words came across like this, I should have choosen better wording, but seeing people outside of "the group" as brainless and unnormal is.
Not only applies to United so probably not a great argument. If you want the schedule to be taken into account on the plus side of things, we probably have to take the draws in the cup runs into account as well. I totally agree though, context is everything.
Might also just be Rabiot.
Fred is great when he can create chaos at the opponent. For him to work at his best, the whole team probably should be set up to press a lot and provide a structure that is capable of handling the chaos Fred produces. United isn't great at those things which is why Fred usually doesn't really fit in (and hasn't most of the time he's here). Thing is, that he and his energy show something that the rest of the squad didn't have for the longest time (it has been getting better this year): intensity. I am with you though, I also thought that a manager like ETH could make a little more use of him. But at the end of the day, his limitations are obvious to anyone and ETH isn't a magician after all. Eriksen skillset were probably more benefitial from the manager's point of view and I'd say that is is understandable.
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I love this good intake of yours. It makes sense.
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Literally what Ten Hag said. Which was already obvious, but some think players were dying to come here last summer.
I think the midfield is definitely a area that needs upgrading. We need to raise the level in central midfield and Erik ten Hag even tried to bring in Frenkie de Jong by prioritizing his signature last summer. And I still believe he's still looking for the connector (as he described it) in midfield to be the conduit who can knit it all together. But there isn't anyone obvious that jumps out at me as a Frenkie de Jong alternative, so I think it's possible that we may target a deep roaming playmaker instead who can occupy one of the deeper midfield roles in the build up phase (4-2-4 shape) and then in possession going through thirds we attack in a 3-2-5 with the one of the fullbacks inverting in-field to play alongside Casemiro to maintain structure. Both fullbacks need to have the capability on the ball to come in field and play alongside Casemiro in a two, whilst the other fullback shuffles across and takes up his role as one of the three CBs in a 325 formation in possession. I can't stress enough how important it is to have fullbacks who can invert in-field and play in midfield to provide a strong foundation for the front 5. If your fullback is weak in that regard, then it makes things more difficult and compromises have to be made.
The teams who dominate the ball and control games are those teams who have implemented the above methods by having the correct profile of players who help them exert control in possession. That allows players like De Bruyne/Gundogan (City), Mac Allister (Brighton), Odegaard (Arsenal) and Kokcu (Feyenoord) to thrive due to how the system facilitates or prioritizes a proactive attacking approach. Feyenoord is a dominant team in possession and they've recently just won the league under their excellent head coach Arne Slot. And his system is one where he utilises Orkun Kokcu to be the creative hub of the team in all phases of play by facilitating for him by inverting the fullback to form a two in midfield where Geertruida (the RB) was taking up a midfield spot next to Wieffer (DM) in the game against Roma whilst Kokcu and Szymanski (attacking mid) pushed high with the wide forwards hugging the touchline to leave the two attacking mids to occupy the half spaces. Kokcu is a player who I feel we could potentially take a chance on and the total package for him would be very reasonable.
Brighton are a team in the EPL who are amongst the best teams at dominating the game in possession. And if you look at their first phase players (GK, CBs, deeper mids, fullbacks), you wouldn't think they would be as dominant as they're. But they have players who are comfortable in different roles where midfielders can occupy inverted fullback roles, which gives them control in possession with a goalkeeper who initiates the attack. We've been left way behind due to the managers we hired and now we have a head coach with a idea that needs to be supported. Because his idea correlates with the modern day reality of the EPL.
We obviously need a striker but I hope we can somehow bring in a GK, RB and CM aswell. Fullbacks must have the capability to invert in field and occupy a midfield berth.
And you're a much better poster than I will ever be. And it's posters like yourself who keep people like me around due to the quality of your posts.
I'm more into that ten Hag has already spoken to some interested players. He has his targets already. That is a proactive way, instead of only start discussion once the season is over.
Again, this is well described.
The shape of the team off the ball is a big reason why DDG has the most clean sheets and will win at least a share of the golden gloves.
Each player has to have a high/reliable floor when it comes to technical ability on the ball, then EtH and staff can continue to implement the principles and rules when it comes to tactical positioning. If you abandon the rules and positions, you get a total collapse and we've seen that this year because too many players aren't capable of the tactical demands which require technical ability but also position flexibility and understanding.
EtH trusts Dalot, Shaw, Lindelof, Bruno, Sabitzer, and to an extent Marcus and Sancho because they are flexible within the system and principles he's tried to instill. Whether or not those players remain in the near future are debatable (Sabitzer, Sancho, etc) but those listed players have technical skills that allow EtH to move them around.
???
I've literally acknowledged that we have a drop off when the squad players are put in, and the lesser level of talent.
And I'm saying Ten Hag is partially responsible for it too. He's taken a bunch of players and made them more than their individual talents and making this team better than the sum of its parts. AWB stands out as a shining example, Shaw too, he's helped players find a new place and level for themselves. I just don't think he's achieved that with the squad players, maybe he achieves it next season or clears out what he can't work with. Time will tell.
Also most of our squad players are not young players at all, so it's not even an option to 'put in some young players and get a result'. McTominay, Sabitzer, Weghorst, Malacia, Fred, Sancho, Martial, Dalot, Maguire, Lindelof - these are players at the core of what would be our second XI this year and the youngest one there is 23 years old.
This season to me was majorly about improving the points total. To me this season was for United getting rid of some of the deadwood, bringing in players who aren’t there for a pay check but to be there cause they care. To get a players who clearly have talent out of there rut and show it but also get our identity back.
there has been so much damage done in the last year it Was always going to take a season and possibly a second to get us back on track.
ten Haag has got our mojo back. He has trying to attack and has our players working hard, unfortunately we sometimes still have the previous problem when things don’t start well they players drop heads and effort. He also has been tasked with a squad which lacks talent and who he doesn’t trust after bout the first 14/15 players, so that is resulting in alot of 11s with no changes to little changes in all 4 competitions so alot of the performances where we’re beat or drew and maybe looked like players gave up they were knackered from lack of rest.
I think this summer the most important thing he needs to do is get a striker but also a few signings maybe couple experienced players who are happy to be rotation players or maybe couple younger players who are ready for first time football but not quite hitting peak so again won’t be expecting to be starting every week. We can’t be turning to mcfred or dropping Bruno deeper again if we are without Casemiro and eriksen.
we were lucky this season Liverpool Chelsea and spurs have been below par this season or the tired performances would have cost us and they won’t be that bad again next season.
there has been so much damage done in the last year it Was always going to take a season and possibly a second to get us back on track.
ten Haag has got our mojo back. He has trying to attack and has our players working hard, unfortunately we sometimes still have the previous problem when things don’t start well they players drop heads and effort. He also has been tasked with a squad which lacks talent and who he doesn’t trust after bout the first 14/15 players, so that is resulting in alot of 11s with no changes to little changes in all 4 competitions so alot of the performances where we’re beat or drew and maybe looked like players gave up they were knackered from lack of rest.
I think this summer the most important thing he needs to do is get a striker but also a few signings maybe couple experienced players who are happy to be rotation players or maybe couple younger players who are ready for first time football but not quite hitting peak so again won’t be expecting to be starting every week. We can’t be turning to mcfred or dropping Bruno deeper again if we are without Casemiro and eriksen.
we were lucky this season Liverpool Chelsea and spurs have been below par this season or the tired performances would have cost us and they won’t be that bad again next season.
Yes, and you are one of them. 70 odd posts in this thread and literally not one positive comment - I'd say that's pretty extreme in a (first!) season where we have won a trophy, are in the Cup Final and look a safe bet for CL qualification, against the backdrop of Ronaldo, serious injuries, loan signings, a packed schedule, the World Cup, ridiculous suspensions and ownership uncertainty.
It only applies to United unless you can name another Premier Club that played midweek fixtures for almost 6 months straight. Hint: you won’t
Very interesting! Ten Hag has actually been fairly creative with his setups at Ajax, where he had rather different midfielders at his disposal from one season to another, so I suppose he might change that again here, and not necessarily look for a De Jong type specifically (especially if none is available, obviously). Following up on an earlier discussion we had, I also wonder what he sees as Bruno's ideal position - but since Rashford's best position is LW and Antony can really only play RW, I suppose Ten Hag's planning assumption will be to have Bruno in AM. If that's so, and Casemiro is a lock (at least in the short-term) for DM, then I suppose the third midfielder will have to be a Steady Eddy type, who can provide the passing Casemiro can't and the calm stability to contrast Bruno's style - which sounds quite a bit like De Jong after all?
I find those tactical considerations really interesting, and I'm quite curious how that will play out over the summer. (Well, I'll find outafter the summer, cause there is so much noise in transfer discussions that I don't want to start following that beyond what Ten Hag himself says about his intentions.) As a neutral, purely in terms of my personal forum enjoyment (which I know no-one else cares about), this is actually a big advantage of having Ten Hag at United over Ole btw - there is much more opportunity to really dive into tactics and systems. ('Nerd!' I know.
) And if I make decent posts, it's mostly in hopes people with real knowledge follow up with some real insights! (But before this turns into too much of a bromance, I'll say we'll have to agree to disagree on who's the better poster - certainly on these topics. 
)So none of the fullback helping attackers while in possession to attack??
Just thought I’d add here for those who are still not convinced by ten Hag.
Ralf Rangnick’s record with United was a 35% win percentage.
With largely the same squad ETH is at 65%. It’s fair to say no one expected this type of improvement. Fingers crossed for top 4…
Ralf Rangnick’s record with United was a 35% win percentage.
With largely the same squad ETH is at 65%. It’s fair to say no one expected this type of improvement. Fingers crossed for top 4…
ETH's problem is likely that De Gea is a club legend and is well respected by most of the first team players. Getting rid of a player like that has a risk of alienating some of the squad, fans and the owners. Any bumps in the road afterwards are magnified and attributed to the prior unpopular decision whether or not it's fair.
Guardiola fecked off Joe Hart almost immediately, but Guardiola had a much bigger reputation among fans and players and a much stronger backing from his club's owners and executives than ETH has.
He needs to be brave then. I honestly don't think De Gea holds that kind of influence at United but even if he did, it's financially irresponsible to keep him on a lucrative contract for the purposes of keeping the dressing room happy. It's also a sign of weakness if the manager is willing to bow to that pressure when the player clearly isn't good enough anymore.
For me it's a very simple decision but I do agree that the likelihood is De Gea stays. I'm just not ready to face that reality yet.
To look just at United‘s midfield this season: we have been best with Casemiro as dm, Eriksen as cm/playmaker and Bruno as am. It is a very good balance.Very interesting! Ten Hag has actually been fairly creative with his setups at Ajax, where he had rather different midfielders at his disposal from one season to another, so I suppose he might change that again here, and not necessarily look for a De Jong type specifically (especially if none is available, obviously). Following up on an earlier discussion we had, I also wonder what he sees as Bruno's ideal position - but since Rashford's best position is LW and Antony can really only play RW, I suppose Ten Hag's planning assumption will be to have Bruno in AM. If that's so, and Casemiro is a lock (at least in the short-term) for DM, then I suppose the third midfielder will have to be a Steady Eddy type, who can provide the passing Casemiro can't and the calm stability to contrast Bruno's style - which sounds quite a bit like De Jong after all?
I find those tactical considerations really interesting, and I'm quite curious how that will play out over the summer. (Well, I'll find outafter the summer, cause there is so much noise in transfer discussions that I don't want to start following that beyond what Ten Hag himself says about his intentions.) As a neutral, purely in terms of my personal forum enjoyment (which I know no-one else cares about), this is actually a big advantage of having Ten Hag at United over Ole btw - there is much more opportunity to really dive into tactics and systems. ('Nerd!' I know.
One improvement we can make is get another cm who has a higher workrate than Eriksen, but with good playmaking skills and press resistance. It may be that we are interested in getting Rabiot for this role.
A backup for Casemiro is key as well, perhaps someone like Lavia.
The midfield can be configured different ways, as long as we have the right mix of abilities. Without Casemiro or Eriksen we are in trouble, because it is difficult to replace those abilities with who we have.
Players like Iqbal and Mejbri aren‘t ready.
I‘m wondering what type of midfielder Mainoo will be, I haven‘t seen him very much. I liked him a lot.
Hmm... So either one of those options is correct
a) You are not very good in reading comprehension
b) You have no clue what an extreme position is
c) You are the king of the snowflakes who considers somebody as extreme who is firmly behind the manager but doesn't consider the managers work this season as fantastic but "only" good to very good.
Very extreme. Shouldn't I be on your ignore-list by now? I would be inconsolable, if my negativity caused you a headache.
No one denied that the schedule has been crazy. But City is pretty close, right now on 55 games in comparison to our 58. Real Madrid is also on 56. The differences in the Prem are pretty hefty though, Arsenal currently is on 47, Brighton even on 42 while Liverpool sits on 50. But i guess thats the cost of going for a lot of competitions. Would have been even more important to try to rotate a little more if possible. The successful teams will always play a lot more.
Largely the same squad plus the ever awaited DM, the ever awaited RW and a pretty good CB plus Eriksen. One as an interim manager coming off a terrible start of the season with a team on the low. But yeah - everything is fine as long as we can assure ourselves that everybody who dares to doubt is a weirdo
Ralf really is living rent free in a few fans heads.I think you are the one whose reading comprehension leaves something to be desired. One definition of the word 'extreme' is: 'furthest from the centre or a given point'. If you literally can't find a single good word to say about a guys performance when to the vast majority of fans he has significantly overachieved - and have filled a thread about him with line after line of criticism, rebuttal and downplaying of achievements - then yes, that indicates that your opinion is towards the extremities of the range of views from United fans on Ten Hag's performance this season.
I mean, if you want to disprove me you could quote some of your posts where you have praised his 'good to very good' work this season?
Mate, I know what I wrote. You seem to be the one who is looking through other peoples post history. I can assure you, you will find some praise when you go through mine. what you do, maybe or probably not even intentionally, is shifting goal posts. You act as if a certain level of praise is "the correct one" and as soon as somebody doesnt align with that to a big enough degree, you get triggered and talk talk about negativity or agendas. (Not that I don't feel triggered when I read stuff that I consider as OTT praise). If you want to consider my posts as extreme, go for it. In my view, it says more about you than about me... Lets just leave it at that.
Ah yes the deepest squad in world football, and I'm not talking about games played (reading comprehension?) but an unprecedented number of consecutive weeks with midweek fixtures. Where you'll go next is probably Liverpool last year, but those fixtures were spread across a larger time period as there was no World Cup, and no postponed fixtures as a result of the passing away of a royal family member.Hmm... So either one of those options is correct
a) You are not very good in reading comprehension
b) You have no clue what an extreme position is
c) You are the king of the snowflakes who considers somebody as extreme who is firmly behind the manager but doesn't consider the managers work this season as fantastic but "only" good to very good.
Very extreme. Shouldn't I be on your ignore-list by now? I would be inconsolable, if my negativity caused you a headache.
No one denied that the schedule has been crazy. But City is pretty close, right now on 55 games in comparison to our 58. Real Madrid is also on 56. The differences in the Prem are pretty hefty though, Arsenal currently is on 47, Brighton even on 42 while Liverpool sits on 50. But i guess thats the cost of going for a lot of competitions. Would have been even more important to try to rotate a little more if possible. The successful teams will always play a lot more.
Largely the same squad plus the ever awaited DM, the ever awaited RW and a pretty good CB plus Eriksen. One as an interim manager coming off a terrible start of the season with a team on the low. But yeah - everything is fine as long as we can assure ourselves that everybody who dares to doubt is a weirdo
100% agree with this. His seeming willingness to persist with De Gea, if that comes to pass, is an unacceptable mistake that has a real chance of derailing much of the good work he's done in his first 12 months here. Anyone with half a brain for football can see De Gea is past it shot stopping wise, while also being the complete opposite type of keeper that a manager would want if wishing to play high pressing/proactive possession football.
Imagine a United fan feeling triggered by reading other fans praising the club's new manager in a season where we have already won a trophy and are in the final of another? I mean kudos to you for admitting it because it certainly explains why you feel the need to respond to any bit of praise with detailed reasons why that poster is wrong and do your best to smother any bit of positivity like piss on a bonfire.
Going back to the original point of fatigue, doesn't this then basically affirm that? It's not a 'great argument' but a pretty solid one if the only comparable examples are a doped up Man City and a historically great team in a two horse league that pretty much had nothing to play for other than the cups a few months ago. ETH absolutely could have played everything perfectly and rotated more but for his first season, he's done bloody well and he's a victim of his own 'success' in an unprecedented season of games, postponements and a winter world cup.
De Zebri has been massively and rightly lauded for the job he's done in his first season with Brighton but even he has struggled with mid week games where he's literally said the game against us in the FA cup semi final took it toll on their players. They subsequently lost against Forest and then got beat by Everton at home 1-5 after their league game against us. Yet they have only play 42 games.
It's not binary. Fatigue is absolutely a factor and ETH's lack of rotation is one also but you'd give him benefit of the doubt on that because there simply isn't an example of a manager coming into a new club with the same set or similar issues and delivering on every single standard. The fact you had to 'but no that doesn't apply to Utd' or ETH is a harsh and clinical take; it's very easy to see why people take issue with your opinions.
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From what I saw at Ajax during Erik ten Hag's tenure, when he had the double pivot of Frenkie de Jong and Lasse Schone at the base of the midfield. He didn't invert the fullbacks as much but instead had the wide forwards inverting in-field with the fullbacks providing width and hence the fullbacks were bombing forward like wingers. And it was easy to see why he would do that due to Schone and de Jong providing deep lying play-making qualities along with positional discipline in deeper roles in midfield.Very interesting! Ten Hag has actually been fairly creative with his setups at Ajax, where he had rather different midfielders at his disposal from one season to another, so I suppose he might change that again here, and not necessarily look for a De Jong type specifically (especially if none is available, obviously). Following up on an earlier discussion we had, I also wonder what he sees as Bruno's ideal position - but since Rashford's best position is LW and Antony can really only play RW, I suppose Ten Hag's planning assumption will be to have Bruno in AM. If that's so, and Casemiro is a lock (at least in the short-term) for DM, then I suppose the third midfielder will have to be a Steady Eddy type, who can provide the passing Casemiro can't and the calm stability to contrast Bruno's style - which sounds quite a bit like De Jong after all?
I find those tactical considerations really interesting, and I'm quite curious how that will play out over the summer. (Well, I'll find outafter the summer, cause there is so much noise in transfer discussions that I don't want to start following that beyond what Ten Hag himself says about his intentions.) As a neutral, purely in terms of my personal forum enjoyment (which I know no-one else cares about), this is actually a big advantage of having Ten Hag at United over Ole btw - there is much more opportunity to really dive into tactics and systems. ('Nerd!' I know.
Out go Schone and de Jong and the team dynamic changes with Daley Blind and Mazraoui now occupying the fullback positions as inverted fullbacks with the wide forwards holding width. Tagliafico is hence relegated to the bench due to Blind being superior on the ball in possession and hence his play-making qualities are better suited to the team as a inverted fullback or as a 3rd CB in possession. Losing de Jong meant Tagliafico lost his place in the team and exerting on the ball control meant that the fullbacks would now have to play their part in midfield aswell due to the quality that was lost when de Jong and Schone departed. So Erik ten Hag tweaked the system without compromising on his principles by maintaining on the ball dominance with the fullbacks getting involved centrally in midfield or as the ball playing CB in a 3, which Blind was very good at. And the midfield of Alvarez and Gravenberch wasn't comparable qualitatively to de Jong and Schone but the quality of the fullbacks on the ball made up the short fall where ten Hag would again develop the team to be competitive and attractive to watch.
So if the news about ten Hag wanting Frimpong turns out to be correct. Then I foresee the fullbacks providing width and the wide forwards inverting in-field. Because from the little I've seen of Frimpong, he's got electric pace and good close control to be a real threat as a winger with Antony and Rashford inverting in-field and Bruno as the attacking midfielder ahead of a midfield double pivot. Luke Shaw has potential to both invert into midfield or be part of a three man defence in possession in a 3-2-5 in possession.
I think the plan is to develop the team to be proactive with and without the ball. And having players who are comfortable in possession will allow for positional rotation and a more fluid play-style developing with the defensive and midfield lines being in close proximity to the forwards, which will create compactness and hence the pressing and counter pressing will also be more effective. Bruno Fernandes will then have the platform to take risks in the final third and will be expected to create plays that will lead to goals. And the same applies to even Frimpong (if we sign him) who will be expected to deliver going forward with players in rest defense facilitating for him by defending in 1v1 situations.
I think something similar to the below is what I'm thinking with a 424 shape in build up. So the GK and fullbacks need to be very good on the ball and the likes of Martinez, Shaw and Todibo have the technical ability to step into midfield and create both numerical and qualitative superiorities due to their technical level on the ball. And Todibo is strong at defending the channel in 1v1 situations, so he can potentially facilitate the attack minded approach of Frimpong on the right with help from Casemiro and Antony who is also very good at tracking runners.
There's different ways he can set up and having Shaw either bombing forward, holding width, or having him inverting infield or having him playing in a back 3 in possession is what is required of players within the positional play principles. You obviously need players with a high level of touch and technique along with the right attitude and personality. But you also need intelligent players who understand the principles of play.
-----------------ST------------
--LB----LW--------RW-----RB---
-------------CM-----AM-------------
------CB------CM------CB---------
I think this post possibly answers your question aswell @Isotope
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I cant ever see this working for so many reasons. We would need a new goalkeeper, an attacking RB, a striker and a DM that can drop into CB. Kane/Oshimen, Frimpong, Rice and Maignan/Costa. Even if we magically did that then it wont work because where are the back ups? We dont have suitable cover in any of those positions. Add to that there is no way Rashford and Antony work in this system. They are the wrong style of player. Sancho and Amad are the closest we have. You could even question if Casemiro and Bruno are lacking for this system in a sense they arent exactly passing/technical wizards and can they hold the midfield on their own when needed
Of course you need the players hence I believe the players will be brought in over time. Frimpong is linked and we've been linked to goalkeepers and midfielders.
Antony can absolutely invert in-field and occupy the half spaces with the fullback occupying the wide space. It would actually suit Antony due to his ability to retain possession, combine, connect and link play in rondos and he also understand his role in defensive transition. Rashford is also a inside forward with a different profile where his strength is running into space and shooting.
It's important to understand the style before diagnosing the problems.
Each of these managers have stubborn ego, but not the results to back it up.
Ole couldn't see beyond Maguire and McFred. Ten Hag is equally stubborn when it comes to Sancho, Weggy and Martial, and not playing Pellestri.
Be stubborn all you like after you've won a league or two.
Ole couldn't see beyond Maguire and McFred. Ten Hag is equally stubborn when it comes to Sancho, Weggy and Martial, and not playing Pellestri.
Be stubborn all you like after you've won a league or two.