Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager

Would you allow ETH to manage the cup final before parting ways?

  • Yes

    Votes: 664 44.9%
  • No, get an interim now

    Votes: 814 55.1%

  • Total voters
    1,478
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Fortitude

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Last season relied heavily on Rashford performing for us, and I don't think it's Ten Hag's fault he literally can't be arsed to even train these days. We have a much bigger dependence on youth to carry us forward this year, and given our injuries it's not been a tricky ride.

I agree that there are patches where I felt pragmatism was the way forward, but I don't think pragmatism would have gotten much better end results (Only in the CL, I think it would have).
But the season being reliant on a single point failure is never a good thing for a manager and that and a few other issues could have been addressed in the summer instead of a 180 to a calamitous system and subsequent season.

Get your ducks in a line before going pedal to the metal in another direction, one that was called amateurish from as early as preseason and was further compounded as it looked even worse in the season proper.
 

Sarni

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I'm trying to argue that if you want to point to AVB as a guy who won league titles and was well established in Europe, only to come here and fail - then I can do the same for Arteta.
You can't lazily just say "blargh look a this guy, see, it means nothing" but then say "oh no don't use Arteta in the comparison, its an exception".

When asked for other examples of such failures, you put in two managers who actually did well in the Premier League, which dented your logic further.


Ah, yes I agree, I think we'd actually be worse than Brighton level had we stuck with Ole. The lack of discipline in the squad just got way to out of hand. Imagine needing an experienced player like Matic to do your job and hand out fines for late comers.
I am not really pointing merely to AVB, I am pointing out that it is very unusual for a manager to struggle to this extent at a big club, not get the boot and then become a resounding success like Arteta. In fact, it is so rare that it has only happened to Arteta in recent years. All the others either got the boot at first sight of trouble, or were given some time but kept struggling and were eventually dismissed. This does not go for AVB only but many other managers at big clubs, even some that endured way more success in their early days than ETH has with his 3rd place and a cup - e.g. Rodgers at Liverpool, Pellegrini at City, Valverde at Barcelona, Conte at Chelsea and many, many others. That's the nature of a big club job, they don't usually come with a lot of patience for failure.

I don't really think you are going to have much luck proving that Arteta was anything other than an exception to be honest. You are within your rights to cite his example, but I am also within my right to point out that it is very rare for things to pan out this way.
 

KiD MoYeS

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I don't think his job is under any imminent danger, simply because there are limited interim options to replace him. But I do wonder will the club come to an agreement like Bayern and Tuchel and go public.
 

VP89

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But the season being reliant on a single point failure is never a good thing for a manager and that and a few other issues could have been addressed in the summer instead of a 180 to a calamitous system and subsequent season.

Get your ducks in a line before going pedal to the metal in another direction, one that was called amateurish from as early as preseason and was further compounded as it looked even worse in the season proper.
It's not a single point though. He lost a lot of players, and his best player from last season is chronically out of form.

I agree money should have been better allocated in the summer - but that's a structural issue more than a managerial one in my eyes. We misallocated our resources many times before Ten Hag came through as our manager. In fact I can't think of a summer where we spent objectively well.
 

Leftback99

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So you agree Ole wouldn't have got this team back into top 4. Getting there.
I didn't agree that.

A manager that had already proved he could achieve 2nd and 3rd place finishes in the PL probably would get top 4 with £400m to spend to be honest. Absolutely insane thought heh?
 

Alex99

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Ah, yes I agree, I think we'd actually be worse than Brighton level had we stuck with Ole. The lack of discipline in the squad just got way to out of hand. Imagine needing an experienced player like Matic to do your job and hand out fines for late comers.
If anything, it's amazing the thing didn't collapse in on itself sooner. The shit about no one really knowing what Phelan was there for and Solskjaer not actually being that involved in training were worrying enough on their own, without the discipline issues.
 

VP89

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I didn't agree that.

A manager that had already proved he could achieve 2nd and 3rd place finishes in the PL probably would get top 4 with £400m to spend to be honest. Absolutely insane thought heh?
Ten Hag didn't spend £400m to get us to 3rd and a cup.
And again, your money spent point is just lazy - we wasted money before Ten Hag it's not an indictment on him near as much as it is on the structure. So the "punchline I was proven correct" turned out to be bollocks. Got it.
 

RedRover

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He was dumpster diving for a ton of them - Eriksen on a free, Reguilon emergency, Hojlund obligated for youth projects (told he had to focus on players that might be good in a few years rather than hit the ground running), Weghorst and Amraba aren't exactly what he was going to pick if he had the money. The others like Malacia and Licha haven't even been around.

Antony sure - his mistake. Mount from Athletic looked to be a joint pursuit driven massively by Murtough who panicked and overpaid because he was scared about Liverpool nabbing him. I mean, come on :lol:
Eriksen is a player numerous decent PL would want around the squad on a free and with the money available didn't need to be a starter. Regullion was solely for injury cover so I fail to see what relevant he is. Weghorst was a disaster, and we were hamstring because of what he'd already spent.

Antony and Mount account for £150 million - there was better value to be had for that money, especially if he felt he needed more numbers. Onana is £50 million wasted, or certainly, an able replacement for De Gea could have been brought in for less - never mind the salaries these players will be on.

You're just making excuses for him. The simple fact is that we were expecting a manager who'd implement a system. The players he's brought in, presumably to implement that system, either can't do it, or he's realised that system won't work in the PL - either way, he's abandoned it.
 

VP89

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Eriksen is a player numerous decent PL would want around the squad on a free and with the money available didn't need to be a starter. Regullion was solely for injury cover so I fail to see what relevant he is. Weghorst was a disaster, and we were hamstring because of what he'd already spent.

Antony and Mount account for £150 million - there was better value to be had for that money, especially if he felt he needed more numbers. Onana is £50 million wasted, or certainly, an able replacement for De Gea could have been brought in for less - never mind the salaries these players will be on.

You're just making excuses for him. The simple fact is that we were expecting a manager who'd implement a system. The players he's brought in, presumably to implement that system, either can't do it, or he's realised that system won't work in the PL - either way, he's abandoned it.
Mount was overpaid for by Murtough - and if you read the Athletic article it was actually a pursuit by him as much as it was by Ten Hag. Casemiro was Murtough panicking and Antony I have already agreed was a waste. I'm not sure where you think I'm pulling an excuse from - Antony was on him and that's the only one I think there's an issue with.
I also think it's premature to call Onana a flop.
 

RedRover

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And that’s the bother; if you need a perfect xi to do what you want whatever you’re doing is a redundancy out the gate. Your system and know-how should dictate and the pieces, as variable as they are, slot in and out of that.
Exactly. Nobody expects a manager to excel when he's got a long list of injuries. What it is reasonable to expect is a system, and after three transfer windows, players who can rotate in and out of that system so that it maintains some semblance of what it is.

"He hasn't got the players he needs" is just another way of saying "he misjudged what he needed and/or bought the wrong players".

It also assumed that even if he could put the system together he wanted, it'd work. What is far from a given.
 

Leftback99

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Ten Hag didn't spend £400m to get us to 3rd and a cup.
And again, your money spent point is just lazy - we wasted money before Ten Hag it's not an indictment on him near as much as it is on the structure. So the "punchline I was proven correct" turned out to be bollocks. Got it.
Nah keep trying you might be able convince me otherwise eventually. I won't hold my breath given the usual standard of post.
 

poleglass red

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A lot of rumours on his future and most don't look good for him. That Fulham game felt like a Rangnick game, where players are just going through the motions which is daunting heading towards the City game.
 

VP89

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Nah keep trying you might be able convince me otherwise eventually. I won't hold my breath given the usual standard of post.
I think it's already proven to be bollocks, as addressed by other posters so I'll leave it there
 

Laurencio

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Judging by his press conference comments, he still seems to believe Antony has what it takes to be a great- not good - great player in this league. A bit concerning...
 

Leftback99

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I think it's already proven to be bollocks, as addressed by other posters so I'll leave it there
You and another Ten Hag fanatic sharing posts does absolutely nothing to 'prove' that we're in a better managerial position now than 2 years and £400m ago.
 

Alex99

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Exactly. Nobody expects a manager to excel when he's got a long list of injuries. What it is reasonable to expect is a system, and after three transfer windows, players who can rotate in and out of that system so that it maintains some semblance of what it is.

"He hasn't got the players he needs" is just another way of saying "he misjudged what he needed and/or bought the wrong players".

It also assumed that even if he could put the system together he wanted, it'd work. What is far from a given.
Ten Hag didn't spend the money though, the club did. It's on them (just as it was for the stupidly expensive transfers before his arrival) that daft fees are being authorised, leaving us strapped for cash for other necessary deals. It's also ridiculous to suggest a manager at a PL club having to identify all of his own targets has been anything but massively let down by his employers.

I posted this in another thread, but of the current top six, we have the fewest players with 20 or more league appearances so far this season.

On top of that, half of them are attackers (Rashford, Antony, Garnacho and Hojlund), Dalot is the only defender (and he's spent time covering at left-back), McTominay is one of the two midfielders (Fernandes the other), and there's only Varane (with 17 appearances) separating that pack from Jonny Evans in terms of appearances made (Onana is the other with 20+ appearances).

Maguire, Lindelof and Evans have played twice the games Martinez has, and only one fewer than Varane. Shaw has played half the games Dalot has, and the same number as Wan-Bissaka. McTominay has 10 more appearances than Casemiro and nearly three times as many as Mount. Casemiro has just one more appearance than Amrabat and Mainoo.

Even with a functioning system (which we're definitely lacking) we would still struggle when we're regularly having to fill the starting line-up with second and third choice players, some out of position.

We're probably looking at a defense of Dalot, Lindelof, Evans and Amrabat tonight, and this is far from the first time this season we've found ourselves in this situation.

The persistent, suicidal tactics and subsequent shite results are enough of a reason to criticise Ten Hag and justify his sacking without resorting to blaming him for how our transfer windows have gone.
 

RedRover

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Mount was overpaid for by Murtough - and if you read the Athletic article it was actually a pursuit by him as much as it was by Ten Hag. Casemiro was Murtough panicking and Antony I have already agreed was a waste. I'm not sure where you think I'm pulling an excuse from - Antony was on him and that's the only one I think there's an issue with.
I also think it's premature to call Onana a flop.
I'm sorry - the club won't have bought a player the manager didn't want. Casemiro, at least last season, was a big reason we did anything so if Ten Hag didn;t want him that doesn't reflect well.

It's all excuses. He's had a fortune to spend and it's mostly been wasted. He has identified players, we're given to understand he insisted on that, even if the club have overpaid for them and two by my reckoning have been a success - Martinez and Hojlund, but neither of these would be untouchable under another manager.

Antony highlights the problem - clearly Ten Hag was happy with the club going all in on him or he'd have told them to pull back and he's simply not good enough to be the player he evidently thought he could be. Arguably the worst transfer (alongside Sancho) the club have made. Mount might be the next worst, barring a huge turnaround.

I don't understand fans contriving to absolve him of blame for his decisions. The new owners won't do this. Either things improve on the pitch or he'll be sacked. In this new structure the manager will be just another employee.
 

VP89

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I'm sorry - the club won't have bought a player the manager didn't want. Casemiro, at least last season, was a big reason we did anything so if Ten Hag didn;t want him that doesn't reflect well.

It's all excuses. He's had a fortune to spend and it's mostly been wasted. He has identified players, we're given to understand he insisted on that, even if the club have overpaid for them and two by my reckoning have been a success - Martinez and Hojlund, but neither of these would be untouchable under another manager.

Antony highlights the problem - clearly Ten Hag was happy with the club going all in on him or he'd have told them to pull back and he's simply not good enough to be the player he evidently thought he could be. Arguably the worst transfer (alongside Sancho) the club have made. Mount might be the next worst, barring a huge turnaround.

I don't understand fans contriving to absolve him of blame for his decisions. The new owners won't do this. Either things improve on the pitch or he'll be sacked. In this new structure the manager will be just another employee.
Must be new to the transfers of Manchester United hey.
 

RedRover

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Ten Hag didn't spend the money though, the club did. It's on them (just as it was for the stupidly expensive transfers before his arrival) that daft fees are being authorised, leaving us strapped for cash for other necessary deals. It's also ridiculous to suggest a manager at a PL club having to identify all of his own targets has been anything but massively let down by his employers.

I posted this in another thread, but of the current top six, we have the fewest players with 20 or more league appearances so far this season.

On top of that, half of them are attackers (Rashford, Antony, Garnacho and Hojlund), Dalot is the only defender (and he's spent time covering at left-back), McTominay is one of the two midfielders (Fernandes the other), and there's only Varane (with 17 appearances) separating that pack from Jonny Evans in terms of appearances made (Onana is the other with 20+ appearances).

Maguire, Lindelof and Evans have played twice the games Martinez has, and only one fewer than Varane. Shaw has played half the games Dalot has, and the same number as Wan-Bissaka. McTominay has 10 more appearances than Casemiro and nearly three times as many as Mount. Casemiro has just one more appearance than Amrabat and Mainoo.

Even with a functioning system (which we're definitely lacking) we would still struggle when we're regularly having to fill the starting line-up with second and third choice players, some out of position.

We're probably looking at a defense of Dalot, Lindelof, Evans and Amrabat tonight, and this is far from the first time this season we've found ourselves in this situation.

The persistent, suicidal tactics and subsequent shite results are enough of a reason to criticise Ten Hag and justify his sacking without resorting to blaming him for how our transfer windows have gone.
Who wanted those players then? Someone else? Three of them are ex-Ajax. Another three for Holland.

Do you think he told them to pull back on Antony when the bidding got ridiculous?

Is he asking for players but not asking what his budget is?

None of what you say makes any sense. Has he asked for players, sat by while the club went and got them and then when they weren't good enough, didn't have any more money to buy who he wanted?

I don't understand what anyone sees in what he serves up on the pitch to justify bending the truth and contriving to absolve him of blame. If Klopp's replacement spends £400 million on players and performs like this then we'd be laughing our heads of.

You're entitled to your opinion but I just don't get it. Whether you think he's the man to take us forward or not, he should take some responsibility for his decisions.
 

VP89

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Who wanted those players then? Someone else? Three of them are ex-Ajax. Another three for Holland.

Do you think he told them to pull back on Antony when the bidding got ridiculous?

Is he asking for players but not asking what his budget is?

None of what you say makes any sense. Has he asked for players, sat by while the club went and got them and then when they weren't good enough, didn't have any more money to buy who he wanted?

I don't understand what anyone sees in what he serves up on the pitch to justify bending the truth and contriving to absolve him of blame. If Klopp's replacement spends £400 million on players and performs like this then we'd be laughing our heads of.

You're entitled to your opinion but I just don't get it. Whether you think he's the man to take us forward or not, he should take some responsibility for his decisions.
I think the problem is the lack of support/structure to give alternatives, or a list of talents to actually go for. The approach was very much "we got no one, who do you reckon we should go for Eric?" Which essentially pushes the manager away from being a guy who has a say with a veto and more toward being a DoF. I think Eric expected some sort of integration from their end on that and they pretty much failed on it.

Klopp didn't want Salah, I think he wanted some other fella, was it Brandt? No ones going to burn him at the pitch fork for it, because he's not a scout.
 

VP89

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He has a transfer veto in his contract.
So does Murtough.
If faced with Casemiro or no one at that time what do you reckon Ten Hag would do, Veto? Back to my point - we have feck all scouting at this club and feck all negotiation skills. Which means a manager cant actually get players in at the right point in their career for reasonable cost.
 

sepulturite

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I think there's too much noise now, I think he's definitely being replaced in the summer. I doubt it'll be before that purely because anyone that Ineos probably wants aren't available, and we don't want to go down that interim route again. So I think we'll just be in limbo until the end of season.
 

saivet

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So does Murtough.
If faced with Casemiro or no one at that time what do you reckon Ten Hag would do, Veto? Back to my point - we have feck all scouting at this club and feck all negotiation skills. Which means a manager cant actually get players in at the right point in their career for reasonable cost.
The Casemiro transfer is a valid point, it raised question marks when we were pivoting from FdJ to Casemiro who couldn't be more different players and personalities. That's on the club rather than ETH. For me, ultimately the football just hasn't been good enough. Even last season, when results were better, aside from the stretch after the WC to the Barca EL games, I've not been impressed with how we've played and that's firmly on the manager.

Injuries will have an impact but I don't think we've looked like a team whereby player x or y will be the missing piece. Structurally, there have been persistent issues and we're experiencing similar issues when we had lots of injuries to now.

If the team had shown more promise or potential but results are worse, it would be a different issue. We're not a side creating a tonne of chances with no one to finish, not are we a side that is defensively solid but individual errors from defenders or our keeper are costing us. That's not to say we don't have issues of quality in our attack or defence but the issues look deeper than replacing a few individuals.
 

mav_9me

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I agree with your explanation how he wants his system to look like and also with your assesment that the players doesn't suit the system. Knowing that results in the conclusion that a manager has to know that he will have this gaps in his system and going with the players and the system anyway means at least that he's actively accepting this gap and doesn't try to fix it by changing to a system that suits the players better.
The only explanation I have for not changing is he has the backing of INEOS to implement this high pressing system, and they are willing to take this type of a season as part of the growing pains.
 

Wednesday at Stoke

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So does Murtough.
If faced with Casemiro or no one at that time what do you reckon Ten Hag would do, Veto? Back to my point - we have feck all scouting at this club and feck all negotiation skills. Which means a manager cant actually get players in at the right point in their career for reasonable cost.
We apparently have 160 full time scouts and SJR wants to streamline that and cut back as it’s far too bloated. The issue is once again that none of the scouting information is used in any meaningful way as it’s flowing into a central repository that’s nowhere near organized.
 

VP89

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We apparently have 160 full time scouts and SJR wants to streamline that and cut back as it’s far too bloated. The issue is once again that none of the scouting information is used in any meaningful way as it’s flowing into a central repository that’s nowhere near organized.
Yes, which is as good as not really having much of a scouting network. It's reflective of our transfers in the last 10 years really.
 

Alex99

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Who wanted those players then? Someone else? Three of them are ex-Ajax. Another three for Holland.

Do you think he told them to pull back on Antony when the bidding got ridiculous?

Is he asking for players but not asking what his budget is?

None of what you say makes any sense. Has he asked for players, sat by while the club went and got them and then when they weren't good enough, didn't have any more money to buy who he wanted?

I don't understand what anyone sees in what he serves up on the pitch to justify bending the truth and contriving to absolve him of blame. If Klopp's replacement spends £400 million on players and performs like this then we'd be laughing our heads of.

You're entitled to your opinion but I just don't get it. Whether you think he's the man to take us forward or not, he should take some responsibility for his decisions.
You're missing the point.

With the possible exceptions of Klopp and Guardiola, who have been successfully in post for ages now, managers shouldn't be in a position to request specific individuals, and especially not in their first season or two at the helm.

To use your example of Antony, the brief from Ten Hag shouldn't be (or shouldn't have been allowed to be) "I want Antony", it should have been "I need a right-winger with that can do this, this and this." The scouting team and recruitment analysts should then take that and come back with a list of players that, to varying degrees, match that brief, and have them easily categorised based on how suitable they are and how obtainable they are. From there, you draw up a shortlist, and if you can't get your top target (either because their club won't listen to offers, they aren't interested in the move, or the price is too high), you have a second option to quickly move onto, and so on.

It's quite obvious that we haven't done this for Ten Hag. Even with Antony, we asked at the beginning of the window, got quoted something like £50 million so walked away, only to find ourselves without an alternative at the end of the window so paid an even dafter fee, because the other option was having no one. Similarly, Casemiro was signed because we'd apparently only managed to identify Frenkie de Jong for that role and he was basically the most obviously available alternative.

Even with this, it was never in Ten Hag's control to decide what the max bid was, and it's not in his control how the budget is allocated (or at least not to any meaningful degree). He'll have sat down with Murtough and whoever else and planned the window's transfer strategy, which positions were a priority, etc., and then basically had to sit back while Arnold and whoever else went off to negotiate deals. If he says "ooh, that's a bit pricey" when told what we've managed to negotiate for Hojlund, as an example, and we pull out of the deal to try and keep some budget for a central defender, he's running the risk of us ending up with a Weghorst-type loan deal for a striker and still only getting Jonny Evans on a free for his back line.

No one's bending the truth when explaining that it's absolutely mental for a club of our standing to have seemingly had the manager (and a new one at that) dictate transfers to the extent Ten Hag (and Solskjaer, and Mourinho, and van Gaal, and Moyes) has had to.

Again, there's enough ammo to criticise him for "what he serves up on the pitch" without getting wound up about things that shouldn't even be his responsibility (or at least nowhere to the extent they seem to be).

If Liverpool replace Klopp (who infamously wanted Brandt instead of Salah) and let the new guy spend £400 million on a bunch of players he's picked himself, then of course we'd laugh at them, because it's the exact clown show we've been running for ten years.
 

Sarni

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So does Murtough.
If faced with Casemiro or no one at that time what do you reckon Ten Hag would do, Veto? Back to my point - we have feck all scouting at this club and feck all negotiation skills. Which means a manager cant actually get players in at the right point in their career for reasonable cost.
I seem to remember you putting quite a bit of blame on Ole for his transfers... or maybe it was a different poster that suggested he threw so much money down the drain. Must be confusing you with someone because the above is actually on point.
 

Velvet Revolver

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You're missing the point.

With the possible exceptions of Klopp and Guardiola, who have been successfully in post for ages now, managers shouldn't be in a position to request specific individuals, and especially not in their first season or two at the helm.

To use your example of Antony, the brief from Ten Hag shouldn't be (or shouldn't have been allowed to be) "I want Antony", it should have been "I need a right-winger with that can do this, this and this." The scouting team and recruitment analysts should then take that and come back with a list of players that, to varying degrees, match that brief, and have them easily categorised based on how suitable they are and how obtainable they are. From there, you draw up a shortlist, and if you can't get your top target (either because their club won't listen to offers, they aren't interested in the move, or the price is too high), you have a second option to quickly move onto, and so on.

It's quite obvious that we haven't done this for Ten Hag. Even with Antony, we asked at the beginning of the window, got quoted something like £50 million so walked away, only to find ourselves without an alternative at the end of the window so paid an even dafter fee, because the other option was having no one. Similarly, Casemiro was signed because we'd apparently only managed to identify Frenkie de Jong for that role and he was basically the most obviously available alternative.

Even with this, it was never in Ten Hag's control to decide what the max bid was, and it's not in his control how the budget is allocated (or at least not to any meaningful degree). He'll have sat down with Murtough and whoever else and planned the window's transfer strategy, which positions were a priority, etc., and then basically had to sit back while Arnold and whoever else went off to negotiate deals. If he says "ooh, that's a bit pricey" when told what we've managed to negotiate for Hojlund, as an example, and we pull out of the deal to try and keep some budget for a central defender, he's running the risk of us ending up with a Weghorst-type loan deal for a striker and still only getting Jonny Evans on a free for his back line.

No one's bending the truth when explaining that it's absolutely mental for a club of our standing to have seemingly had the manager (and a new one at that) dictate transfers to the extent Ten Hag (and Solskjaer, and Mourinho, and van Gaal, and Moyes) has had to.

Again, there's enough ammo to criticise him for "what he serves up on the pitch" without getting wound up about things that shouldn't even be his responsibility (or at least nowhere to the extent they seem to be).

If Liverpool replace Klopp (who infamously wanted Brandt instead of Salah) and let the new guy spend £400 million on a bunch of players he's picked himself, then of course we'd laugh at them, because it's the exact clown show we've been running for ten years.
Well said. There's a lot of black and white here while majority of things happen in the grey.
 
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I read that ETH has responded to Carra comments of Sky. Erik is still trying to defend himself after so many poor performances. How many games have we lost this season? ....
What? What kinda puerile jist is this? According you the manager should just sit in the conference and say "Carragher is right. We should be aiming to emulate Liverpool/City". Rather than defend his corner? Remember how that nonsense turned out for David Moyes?
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
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I seem to remember you putting quite a bit of blame on Ole for his transfers... or maybe it was a different poster that suggested he threw so much money down the drain. Must be confusing you with someone because the above is actually on point.
No I think money spent is segmented from the manager.

What I blame Ole for is poor coaching and poor discipline, he just wanted to have his arm round players rather than manage the squad.
 

UnitedSofa

You'll Never Walk Away
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6,797
So does Murtough.
If faced with Casemiro or no one at that time what do you reckon Ten Hag would do, Veto? Back to my point - we have feck all scouting at this club and feck all negotiation skills. Which means a manager cant actually get players in at the right point in their career for reasonable cost.
As the sporting director, I should bloody well hope so!
 
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You're missing the point.

With the possible exceptions of Klopp and Guardiola, who have been successfully in post for ages now, managers shouldn't be in a position to request specific individuals, and especially not in their first season or two at the helm.

To use your example of Antony, the brief from Ten Hag shouldn't be (or shouldn't have been allowed to be) "I want Antony", it should have been "I need a right-winger with that can do this, this and this." The scouting team and recruitment analysts should then take that and come back with a list of players that, to varying degrees, match that brief, and have them easily categorised based on how suitable they are and how obtainable they are. From there, you draw up a shortlist, and if you can't get your top target (either because their club won't listen to offers, they aren't interested in the move, or the price is too high), you have a second option to quickly move onto, and so on.

It's quite obvious that we haven't done this for Ten Hag. Even with Antony, we asked at the beginning of the window, got quoted something like £50 million so walked away, only to find ourselves without an alternative at the end of the window so paid an even dafter fee, because the other option was having no one. Similarly, Casemiro was signed because we'd apparently only managed to identify Frenkie de Jong for that role and he was basically the most obviously available alternative.

Even with this, it was never in Ten Hag's control to decide what the max bid was, and it's not in his control how the budget is allocated (or at least not to any meaningful degree). He'll have sat down with Murtough and whoever else and planned the window's transfer strategy, which positions were a priority, etc., and then basically had to sit back while Arnold and whoever else went off to negotiate deals. If he says "ooh, that's a bit pricey" when told what we've managed to negotiate for Hojlund, as an example, and we pull out of the deal to try and keep some budget for a central defender, he's running the risk of us ending up with a Weghorst-type loan deal for a striker and still only getting Jonny Evans on a free for his back line.

No one's bending the truth when explaining that it's absolutely mental for a club of our standing to have seemingly had the manager (and a new one at that) dictate transfers to the extent Ten Hag (and Solskjaer, and Mourinho, and van Gaal, and Moyes) has had to.

Again, there's enough ammo to criticise him for "what he serves up on the pitch" without getting wound up about things that shouldn't even be his responsibility (or at least nowhere to the extent they seem to be).

If Liverpool replace Klopp (who infamously wanted Brandt instead of Salah) and let the new guy spend £400 million on a bunch of players he's picked himself, then of course we'd laugh at them, because it's the exact clown show we've been running for ten years.
You are spot on ofcourse but sadly just wasting your time. They have ears the refuse to understand. They have eyes yet refuse to perceive. Its amazing anyone who gets football can accuse a United manager of over paying for Antony. Like he is the one
who negotiated the transfer fee with Ajax. Like it's his job to have a list of options he'd like from the scouting department. This summer alone we missed out on a super cheap Kim Ni Jae from his list for exampls, plus on buying another striker, adding a DM early in pre season and another forward player because United dragged negotiations for Mount and Rasmus and payed vastly over the odds for both. Not to mention failure tl raise any decent money from players sold nor market players the manager preffered to move on to get closer to the game play he desires to implement. The hall marks of idiotic squad building by our footballing recruitment department.

Yet to these knuckle heads on here it's all the JUST managers doing. Every time it happens to yet another manager post SAF.....


Above all. What is most galling of this continous pretence United has had a competitive squad the last 3 seasons 'under mined by fraud managers". Rather than a hog podge and badly done Frankenstein that has never gotten the full directional and personnel over haul it has deserved for over 4 seasons...

ETH by his sheer ability over performed with the sheer mess he inherited from Ragnick that had eventually claimed Solksjaer's job, last season. Ragnick told then open heart surgery is needed at United, which was NEVER performed lsst summer or this for ETH. But it went in one ear, straight out the other. It's straight back to "the manager is a clueless hit. Get rid! These players together are far better than he makes them show"....
 
Last edited:

Alex99

Rehab's Pete Doherty
Joined
May 30, 2009
Messages
16,052
You are spot on ofcourse but sadly just wasting your time. They have ears the refuse to understand. They have eyes yet refuse to perceive. Its amazing anyone who gets football can accuse a United manager of over paying for Antony. Like he is the one
who negotiated the transfer fee with Ajax. Like it's his job to have a list of options he'd like from the scouting department. This summer alone we missed out on a super cheap Kim Ni Jae from his list for exampls, plus on buying another striker, adding a DM early in pre season and another forward player because United dragged negotiations for Mount and Rasmus and payed vastly over the odds for both. Not to mention failure tl raise any decent money from players sold nor market players the manager preffered to move on to get closer to the game play he desires to implement. The hall marks of idiotic squad building by our footballing recruitment department.

Yet to these knuckle heads on here it's all the JUST managers doing. Every time it happens to yet another manager post SAF.....


Above all. What is most galling of thid comtinous presence United has had a competitive squad the last 3 seasons 'under mined by fraud managers". Rather than a hog poge and badly done Frankenstein that has never gotten the full directional abd personnem over haul it has deserved for over 4 seasons...
I honestly wonder if it's because they think the control you have when you take over a team in Football Manager or Fifa's career mode is remotely comparable to reality.
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
31,874
You're missing the point.

With the possible exceptions of Klopp and Guardiola, who have been successfully in post for ages now, managers shouldn't be in a position to request specific individuals, and especially not in their first season or two at the helm.

To use your example of Antony, the brief from Ten Hag shouldn't be (or shouldn't have been allowed to be) "I want Antony", it should have been "I need a right-winger with that can do this, this and this." The scouting team and recruitment analysts should then take that and come back with a list of players that, to varying degrees, match that brief, and have them easily categorised based on how suitable they are and how obtainable they are. From there, you draw up a shortlist, and if you can't get your top target (either because their club won't listen to offers, they aren't interested in the move, or the price is too high), you have a second option to quickly move onto, and so on.

It's quite obvious that we haven't done this for Ten Hag. Even with Antony, we asked at the beginning of the window, got quoted something like £50 million so walked away, only to find ourselves without an alternative at the end of the window so paid an even dafter fee, because the other option was having no one. Similarly, Casemiro was signed because we'd apparently only managed to identify Frenkie de Jong for that role and he was basically the most obviously available alternative.

Even with this, it was never in Ten Hag's control to decide what the max bid was, and it's not in his control how the budget is allocated (or at least not to any meaningful degree). He'll have sat down with Murtough and whoever else and planned the window's transfer strategy, which positions were a priority, etc., and then basically had to sit back while Arnold and whoever else went off to negotiate deals. If he says "ooh, that's a bit pricey" when told what we've managed to negotiate for Hojlund, as an example, and we pull out of the deal to try and keep some budget for a central defender, he's running the risk of us ending up with a Weghorst-type loan deal for a striker and still only getting Jonny Evans on a free for his back line.

No one's bending the truth when explaining that it's absolutely mental for a club of our standing to have seemingly had the manager (and a new one at that) dictate transfers to the extent Ten Hag (and Solskjaer, and Mourinho, and van Gaal, and Moyes) has had to.

Again, there's enough ammo to criticise him for "what he serves up on the pitch" without getting wound up about things that shouldn't even be his responsibility (or at least nowhere to the extent they seem to be).

If Liverpool replace Klopp (who infamously wanted Brandt instead of Salah) and let the new guy spend £400 million on a bunch of players he's picked himself, then of course we'd laugh at them, because it's the exact clown show we've been running for ten years.
A top post
 

lex talionis

Full Member
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Messages
14,200
The credibility buster with ETH were his signings.

Right now we can all appreciate his predicament with player injuries and various issues, such as Rashford’s and Bruno’s refusal to perform as a member of a squad and instead go it alone for the glory video clip, but ETH was too pig headed about wanting players who were unsuited to purpose, even though he made his reputation on being a top tactics man.