We’ve had this before, haven’t we? That unexpected win when we are at our lowest. But let’s face it, we are going nowhere with this bloke. Do we trust him to oversee the rebuilding of the squad? It will just be a load of Dutch players that we can’t sell on in 6 months when he’s gone
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
- Start date
We haven't bought any Dutch players
You are going to confuse Malacia.
Is there an “EtH in crowd”? If there is, they can’t be many. What I see are some who think we should get rid now no matter the alternative and others who’d like to wait until after the final and maybe till we have a proper replacement in place.
And even better, Elanga slotted in at Forest this season, has played twice as many games (34 to Lingard's 17 the previous season) and scored 5 goals (to Lingard's zero).
I don't think i'm EtH in anymore and the obvious and truthful answer is not a damn thing, however...
I think the fear is that we slip back to being a low block/pragmatic team because I don't see what any top manager can do with the profile of this squad other than just be solid and grind out a top 4 battle, occasionally hitting the dizzying heights of a distant second or third place finish. Implementing real change is going to be painful. Each manager-Jose, Ole, EtH- has said and done the same thing, that he wanted to take the next step, be more proactive and it fails miserably. So what would anyone miss about EtH? Well, in theory, pressing high, committing many players forward, playing aggressively and with energy- which is what EtH is trying to get us to do- sounds quite entertaining but it's been undeniably crap so far. Could it work though with better players and a better structure? I'm very skeptical and i'm starting to think the answer is no. However, given some of the names i'm hearing linked with the job, I think i'd rather try another season of getting this right than some of the alternatives that have been put forward so far.
I don't see how?
Talks big game, delivers nothing in the end.
What a disaster he has been, no progression but retrogression, sets us back a few more years with dross to sort out
What a disaster he has been, no progression but retrogression, sets us back a few more years with dross to sort out
Ok, so one sub.
Implementing real change doesn't have to be painful. Often times it isn't. The reason why those managers said so was to protect themselves. If you look at the best managers, they did not need pain. Sure, you won't get the best results, but it's important to remember that United fans are actually extremely lenient and only want to enjoy watching their football club again. Performances that get fans excited, then results can follow.
This very low standard has not been met by our former managers.
The reason why it's not worth it to persist with better players under his coaching set up is because there is no logic in his player selection, and what he values that would lead any fan to have trust in him to make things better. If growing pains should happen, fans can accept that if his player selection proves he believes in his setup will bring us long term results. For example, if pressing in his setup should be believed it's effective or at the very least valued by him, why select players like Rashford that hamper one of his system's advantages in the press? This suggests he's more pragmatic than he claims to be and one rightly questions if he truly believes his pressing instructions when followed bring the side rewards, or that it's tested enough in the league as being good enough for the future of his sides. Tested by having the proper player following instructions so that one can accurately gauge if it's effective or not in this league as he's new to this league.
Two, even if we forgive the above example and many other examples with his player selection contradicting his system, the fact that all the top sides, be it in all the variety of ways a top side that plays front foot/progressive football has played (A Klopp style to a more possession oriented Pep style), have valued compactness to defend transitions would lead any fan to question the legitimacy of his setup. This due to as I stated, referencing that all the top sides value compactness, or through the evidence of this season's awful defending performances.
There are 2 thresholds that he did not meet. Thresholds as in precedence from past sides, 1. in what they value and 2. in how long it took them to coach them to lend their sides' performances clear tangible advantages. Klopp's sides did not have results at the start. However, his coaching lent them clear advantages that were evidenced via statistics apart from the obvious observations any fan can see. At that point, it became easy to trust his coaching could bring better results if he was provided better talents.
His watch is almost ended, at least.
I'm on the fence about ETH but i will still try to answer your question.
I will not miss anything about our play. But i will miss the fact that we had a chance to get rid of serial underperformers and reset the culture when this bunch inevitably fails another manager.
I'll miss average players looking like Zinedane in the middle of the pitch as they gallop towards our goal. I'll miss easily savable shots rolling into the back of the net. So many things to miss.
The idea that Ten Hag shouldn’t be replaced because there’s no one out there they see improving the team is the most ridiculous thing I’ve heard.
I’m not even going to name the best managers around but if you gave Marco Silva, Valverde or Lopetegui as our coaches this season we would look a far better team than we have this season. Position might not be too different considering injuries but the main issue with Ten Hag is he has created the worst tactical side I’ve probably ever seen for a supposed top team.
If we have to get Amorim, Tuchel, Motta or even fecking Southgate, they can continue the journey to the next phase their ability takes them to.
Ten hag is a horrible fit for the PL
I’m not even going to name the best managers around but if you gave Marco Silva, Valverde or Lopetegui as our coaches this season we would look a far better team than we have this season. Position might not be too different considering injuries but the main issue with Ten Hag is he has created the worst tactical side I’ve probably ever seen for a supposed top team.
If we have to get Amorim, Tuchel, Motta or even fecking Southgate, they can continue the journey to the next phase their ability takes them to.
Ten hag is a horrible fit for the PL
I didn’t quote your whole post because it was long but I do think there is a genuine confusion as to whether various managers could’ve achieved more with a stronger commitment to squad turnover.
We have consistently maligned the club for its failure to move on underperforming players or renewing contracts for the likes of Phil Jones. Meanwhile, the turnover at City when Pep took over meant he went through several goalkeepers because Hart wasn’t good enough etc.
Regardless of whether Ten Hag stays or goes we cannot keep footballers who don’t fit the style long term. Even if Maguire and McTominay for example have been some of our better performers this season they don’t suit a highly skilled team playing high press football. They lack the pace in Maguires case and the talent in McTominays. We see any footballer who has some skills as having value even if they offer nothing to the eventual direction we are trying to go.
Going right back to Moyes’ two signings of Fellaini and Mata and I can’t think of any two players less suited to playing in the same team and we’ve been doing that for 10 years.
A good teacher will always be able to make a shitty boring snoozer topic into a fun and engaging one. Teaching and explaining shit is a huge skill which a lot of smart people cannot do regardless of their intelligence level. Thats why a lot of ex players are terrible managers. Conveying your complex idea into understandable bits and pieces is an art itself. Bad teacher will always either flood their student with nonsensical information which bore them to death or give unclear instructions.
How do you reset the culture with the serial underperformer in the most important appointment, the manager? Realistically, practically, logically the reset need to start from manager and not the players because simple fact is it's more economically 1 vs 25 players. There is no other way whether you like it or not. In addition, the players are actually still working hard bar a few. The real problem is the manager style of play.
We must and I expect us to do both. I think we'll see plenty of departures in the playing squad, along with the manager.
But thats what we have been doing since SAF, right? ETH had a wonderful first season. We have seen that. What happened this season is something we have witnessed time and time again. Players do well and earn undeserving contracts and then they rest on their laurels. Every fecking time.
If this time, we back the manager and show some underperformers the door, there will be a sense of seriousness within the players. They are far too comfortable right now. They feel so entitled, take things to social media explaining how they are impacted but do feck all on the pitch.
This is the culture we have allowed to set. No matter which player comes in, they get exposed to this "we have made it" mentality. The club needs to be ruthless for once and sack some of the underperformers who have failed multiple managers (AwB, Maguire, Bruno, Rashford, Lindelof and throw in some ETH signings too).
That's how I'm looking at it. We bring new manager, these get a clean slate. We can't afford more clean slates. Get these fecks out and then deal with the manager. This lot can't win anything.
Yeah he still sounds very bullish which suggests to me he is confident they won't sack him
There are many major flaws here. First, FFP will not allowed us to change a lot of players. Hence, we need to find someone who is a leader with great man management skills. In addition, only a few players maybe a problem. I refused to believe that most players are downing tool. Also, ETH had bring in a lot of his own signings and with emerging youngsters too that also can't play his style. Whose fault? As for injuries, at the start of this season, he had almost the full team but we played awful too.
His first season here were not great. He started great but the form for the last 2 to 3 months were worrying. There were also no fix or obvious style of play which is the basic for many successful managers even during rebuild, see Pep, Klopp and Arteta.
Your view is not wrong but it's not possible in real world. If you are the owner, you will be looking at most practical solutions. ETH can't get these players play his style of play even after spending 400M. And next year it's not going to change much as we can only add maybe 3 players in the summer. In the coming window we may need to spend another 200M under ETH. It's going to be 600M for a manager with nothing to show for?
The obvious solution is to interview someone with suitable experience and style of play for these players with a view of building for future, great man management skills, big club experience handling big egos, able to work seamlessly with their new culture, to refresh the mood, moral, training sessions and implement new ideas.
To reset we need to do both. A manager that suits the new football structure and able to refresh things for the players. Get rid of some problematic players and get in a few signings for the new manager. New direction and rebuild can only start after ETH. To change most of our players is too big to ask and we are restricted by FFP.
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Oliver Glasner, who really hasn’t done or won much, at least not as much as Ten Hag supposedly, has Crystal Palace playing with identity and confidence after 8 weeks. He has some decent players in that Palace side, but I’d say we have a much better squad. After well over 100 matches total and 49 matches this season, we have no identity, no attacking patterns of play, we can’t play out of a high press without either Onana or someone else making a mistake, we aren’t a good possession team, we give up far too many shots on goal. There are times we look completely lost, and we have a squad full of top internationals and CL and World Cup winners.
I would take Glasner in a heartbeat over Ten Hag. Seriously. You say there’s no one inspiring to take over from Ten Hag… well, that guy is absolutely killing squad and club morale. We can’t stop trying to be better.
Christ it's like groundhog day in here!
How is being ruthless with players but lenient with the manager a solution? The standard is the standard. Both the players and the manager need to meet those standards or they are gone. Do you really think Bruno, Garnacho, Hojlund, Mainoo, hell, even Maguire, Dalot, Lindelof, McTomimay have an effort problem? I don’t. I see a team that is a tactical mess and that is compounded by the players not being good enough. Casemiro and Varane are CL and WC winners. I just don’t think they would have so many trophies if they were lazy. They are far from the best version of themselves, but they have proven that they are serial winners.
To give up so many shots is not an effort problem, it’s tactics.
‘If we want a wholesale squad turnover, it has to be a 5 year plan with an emphasis on investing in top young academy talent along with strategic senior team buys in important positions.
Surely you mean 8 years sir? Because nobody in the world ever ever has managed to turn a team round in less than 5 years, nobody!
On the injuries point, people argue a lot of them come down to ten Hag himself, and I'm inclined to agree. All the leaks about our training, never rotating, leaving so much space in games for our players to cover week in, week out, rushing players back. It's too bad to just be unlucky.
Ineos need to pick a style. Bring in the manager who plays that style and sticks with it. Bring in young hungry players who can implement it. Sell all the players/ don’t renew contracts who can’t or won’t play this style Make every team under the first team play this style.
t’s simple when you type it out, but in reality that’s all it is. If you have to move Bruno, Rashford on, then be prepared to bench them, regardless of how a big name they are.
TH is damaged goods now and the fact Ineos didn’t bring him in, is the easiest step to make. We may have a season or two of ‘teething problems’, but the overall situation would be a lot clearer.
If for some reason the new manager fails, well at least the next one after him would have a good base to work with.
t’s simple when you type it out, but in reality that’s all it is. If you have to move Bruno, Rashford on, then be prepared to bench them, regardless of how a big name they are.
TH is damaged goods now and the fact Ineos didn’t bring him in, is the easiest step to make. We may have a season or two of ‘teething problems’, but the overall situation would be a lot clearer.
If for some reason the new manager fails, well at least the next one after him would have a good base to work with.
What do we rate higher? Winning the EL with an underdog or winning a bunch of national titles you are expected to because you manage the by far richest club in the country?
Can't say anything about his work before he came to Germany but he clearly elevated Wolfsburg, managed Frankfurt to be an excellent cup team and overall was always able to get results even against the biggest teams. Early on it looks similar with Crystal Palace.
EtH also looked to be a good manager but he always seemed to hit a wall at a certain level. Unfortunately for him that seems to be the average PL level. Glasner's teams don't manage to do it all the time, but they are able to smash trough this metaphorical wall.
We can do all that will a structure in charge that will buy the players and dictate direction of play. The scattergun approach to managers should be over hopefully.
See how Real Madrid use Kroos and have young legs around him, Casemiro, Erikson, and a young imexperienced Manoo left on their own trying to defend oncoming attacks. Great tactics.
It's just so basic. I think Casemiro has been horribly managed in both seasons he has been here. I believe the club played a part in his demise. His body was always bound to slow down eventually, but I think we quickened the process with how we used him, especially due to the intensity of the league.
13 defeats in the league, a minus goal difference, it's got to be one of the worst Premier League seasons for us.
How he has been left as manager is amazing.
How he has been left as manager is amazing.
And you didn’t even mention how he did in the CL
And there are some fans want us to bin the players instead of the root cause of the main problem. Don't get me wrong, some players need to go but the first out the door should be the manager. Negative GD for Manchester United alone is stackable.
He’s trying hard to keep his job. He knows it’s in danger. In all his interviews he’s mentioning about all the injuries and different back lines… he’s saying the owners have common sense and know that he’s struggling because of squad injuries.
Why do so many people think this? So you agree he's been a pretty bad coach but somehow keeping him will mean we get rid of underperformers and reset the culture. He's been here for two years, he's brought in a lot of players, why are there not even signs of this culture reset yet? Not only that but we're at our lowest point. Players will not get a clean slate under new manager. It didn't actually happen before and it is especially not going to happen now with new people in charge. The clearouts that people are dreaming of never happen in football because they are unrealistic and unfeasible. We're not going to sell half our squad and whoever is the head coach will not be deciding who's getting sold from now on anyway. There's zero sense in keeping a failing coach with the goal of resetting the culture when he himself has contributed to that same culture with his own signings and his own incompetence as well.
He's getting asked specific questions about his future and the circumstances surrounding our poor performances mate. He's not bringing things up by himself.
From this summer it probably wouldn't be the managers decision who leaves. And I think everyone who says this or similar would only be disappointed anyway if it was Ten Hags decision.
Of the 10 or so players we have left from 2022 there's probably only 3 or 4 Ten Hag would want to release/sell.
It is the worst premier league season ever for Manchester United.
Beyond a joke he is still the manager.
True. Just when he mentioned the owners having common sense… it’s like a plea for him to stay… or kind of saying give me another chance with a better squad.