[amolbhatia50k]

Agree completely.

There's no reason why us using a new system would have him performing in the bottom few % of almost every creative metric. But fans who make these arguments just eye test and vibe everything which means in their world everything is subjective and they can never be wrong.

They said the same thing about Lingard and Adnan, It'll never stop.

At this point Garnachos performances are just so bad that it's making me question Amorim more than anything. If he genuinely thinks he's even close to the level we need then we're in huge trouble.

The system is an important consideration especially if we are forgoing a good chunk of transfer fee to develop his talent. However, it’s not the reason why he’s a terrible passer and decision maker. I’m sceptical as to how much he can improve at these things - I don’t think he’s made much progress in this regard since he joined. That over hit pass to Bruno was so Garnacho, his passing ability is bad by even championship level.

 

[ZainCRse7en]

Guy plays like an absolute diva. He has this annoying trait where he looks in total shock and disbelief after every shot that misses or the opposition goalkeeper saves. I mean, it's not even a good shot to even begin.

 

[MadDogg]

I could not believe my eyes when this happened:

Watching it back it's not as bad as I first though. It still wasn't a high quality pass as it was bouncing a bit, but it actually would have been right into Bruno's path if Bruno hadn't stopped running in the moment before Garna passed it. Bruno timed his change of direction very poorly there, as he went from being in space and ready for a pass (the exact pass that Garna played) to basically taking himself out of the play at the vital moment by going behind a defender.

Garnacho was pretty much terrible with everything else he did during the game though.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Plays like someone who dreams of being Ronaldo, but in reality is closer to Obertan.

Hopefully he's not here next season, but if he is someone should tell him to leave the ego at home and stop trying to be the hero. It's a fecking team game and he's one of the big problems with it

 

[Trex]

I went back to watch some of his u18 clips to see what he was doing playing at that level and it's quite similar to what he's trying to do here. Ball carrying directed towards getting into shooting positions except at that level he strong enough to not get shoved to the ground anytime he got close to defenders. There wasn't silky passes or dribbles, crosses or proper link up with his teammates, nor was he showing expert finishing.
This is his style of play, too predictable.

 

[Amar__]

Stupid on the pitch as he is off the pitch by the looks of it. Clearly lacking talent needed, he shouldn't even be a backup winger next year, maybe third choice or something like that at best, but we should sell if we get any money for him.

 

[Guv77]

Awful player

 

[TwoSheds]

Its not trying to measure quality of finishing

You can't control those things, but you can make your decisions about whether to shoot or not off the back of them.

 

[Cassidy]

You can't control those things, but you can make your decisions about whether to shoot or not off the back of them.

The metric is not trying to measure decision making either

 

[Yoro]

I'd sell him in a heartbeat, hopefully Napoli are still interested.

 

[TwoSheds]

The metric is not trying to measure decision making either

And that is also not what I'm saying. If you look at probabilities that are affected by decision making, then those probabilities are wrong if a much worse decision maker shows up. Think poker where somebody who doesn't know how to play comes along. They don't know if the hand is good or bad or not so you can't assign probability to their actions on the basis of that.

xG looks at stats on the basis of what other players have achieved in similar positions, so if they are not doing daft things then it will rate the chance higher as they will generally have only shot if its sensible. If Gunslinger Garna shows up and starts shooting from the same positions when it's not sensible then his odds of scoring will be lower than xG says it should be, even if the shooting technique is fine.

 

[Cassidy]

And that is also not what I'm saying. If you look at probabilities that are affected by decision making, then those probabilities are wrong if a much worse decision maker shows up. Think poker where somebody who doesn't know how to play comes along. They don't know if the hand is good or bad or not so you can't assign probability to their actions on the basis of that.

xG looks at stats on the basis of what other players have achieved in similar positions, so if they are not doing daft things then it will rate the chance higher as they will generally have only shot if its sensible. If Gunslinger Garna shows up and starts shooting from the same positions when it's not sensible then his odds of scoring will be lower than xG says it should be, even if the shooting technique is fine.

I think what you are missing is that you have both good decision makers and poor decision makers in the mix and outliers are always taken away in statistical models. Its using shots/chances from a wide variety if players which should remove the type of noise you are alluding to here.

 

[Mike Smalling]

He was not far off Onana and Højlund in terms of the awfulness of his performance. Lots of bad touches and wrong decisions.

 

[TwoSheds]

I think what you are missing is that you have both good decision makers and poor decision makers in the mix and outliers are always taken away in statistical models. Its using shots/chances from a wide variety if players which should remove the type of noise you are alluding to here.

The average decision making is more cautious than Garnacho's when it comes to shooting, I don't think anybody would dispute that.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

Awful player

He's not though is he? Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole everytime a young player hits a bad run of form?

He's been a good player for us. He has the potential to be great. He's been played far too much for such a young age and is now playung in a new position and is essentially now on his 4th manager since he made his first team debut.

He's still only 20. Even a young Ronaldo (who was just as inconsistent at times) would have struggled in this environment.

 

[Cassidy]

The average decision making is more cautious than Garnacho's when it comes to shooting, I don't think anybody would dispute that.

Of course. Does not mean the model is wrong about the possibility of scoring a chance from a position (since it will include decisions made by average, good and also players with worse decision making than Garnacho)

 

[The Hilton]

He's not though is he? Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole everytime a young player hits a bad run of form?

He's been a good player for us. He has the potential to be great. He's been played far too much for such a young age and is now playung in a new position and is essentially now on his 4th manager since he made his first team debut.

He's still only 2. Even a young Ronaldo (who was just as inconsistent at times) would have struggled in this environment.

There's a lot of irony in criticising hyperbole and then comparing Garnacho to Ronaldo. The gulf in talent between those two is lightyears wide.

You're also severely underplaying how bad he's been. This isn't a bad run of form, he's been rubbish for the entire season, and was generally poor last season too. A more accurate assessment at the moment is that he previously had a run of good form, as his average level has been bad.

As for the potential to be great, what is it that you think he can be great at? He's one of our worst players for passing and crossing, one of the worst players in the league at dribbling, he's weak, isn't particularly fast, there's just so little there. He works hard, to his credit, but we need to be aiming much higher than that.

 

[TwoSheds]

Of course. Does not mean the model is wrong about the possibility of scoring a chance from a position (since it will include decisions made by average, good and also players with worse decision making than Garnacho)

There won't be many that take as many shots as Garnacho. And yes xG will overvalue his chances from any given position since he takes shots on that other players on average wouldn't in that position.

 

[The Hilton]

Watching it back it's not as bad as I first though. It still wasn't a high quality pass as it was bouncing a bit, but it actually would have been right into Bruno's path if Bruno hadn't stopped running in the moment before Garna passed it. Bruno timed his change of direction very poorly there, as he went from being in space and ready for a pass (the exact pass that Garna played) to basically taking himself out of the play at the vital moment by going behind a defender.

Garnacho was pretty much terrible with everything else he did during the game though.

Bruno checked his run before Garnacho went to play the ball. The latter took another couple of paces before playing the pass.

It's a fundamental flaw in Garnacho's game - he plays with his head down most of the time, so doesn't know what's happening on the pitch around him. This is another great example; he had no idea where Zirkzee was, and thought Bruno was still in a full sprint when he'd actually slowed down.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Watching it back it's not as bad as I first though. It still wasn't a high quality pass as it was bouncing a bit, but it actually would have been right into Bruno's path if Bruno hadn't stopped running in the moment before Garna passed it. Bruno timed his change of direction very poorly there, as he went from being in space and ready for a pass (the exact pass that Garna played) to basically taking himself out of the play at the vital moment by going behind a defender.

Garnacho was pretty much terrible with everything else he did during the game though.

Playing Zirkzee in was the better option though, no? Even with a perfect pass to Bruno he had to thread the needle to reach him and there would have been a defender in Bruno’s face as soon as he received it.

 

[Still ill]

He's still only 2.

Our willingness to throw them in early is unparalelled. Although the risk of him throwing his toys out of the pram is obviously heightened.

 

[MadDogg]

He's not though is he? Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole everytime a young player hits a bad run of form?

He's been a good player for us. He has the potential to be great. He's been played far too much for such a young age and is now playung in a new position and is essentially now on his 4th manager since he made his first team debut.

He's still only 2. Even a young Ronaldo (who was just as inconsistent at times) would have struggled in this environment.

He has been a good player for us during some patches. But he's been mostly poor for the last two seasons.

He was fairly good when he played in 22/23, in a 'youngster showing potential' kind of way. Nothing special but enough to get fans excited. Then he was poor for the first half of 23/24, before becoming good most of the second half of that season after ETH moved him to the right. This season starts and for the first month he was a bit hit and miss, then has been pretty bad ever since. There was a brief sign of some form about a month ago when Amorim first moved him to the right again, but it only lasted a couple of games and he's gone back to being poor on either side.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Playing Zirkzee in was the better option though, no?

I agree. That passage reminded me a bit of when Ronaldo was here and players would look for him rather than choose the best option. Wrong option, happens a lot for us.

 

[KStandBarmyArmy1993]

There's a lot of irony in criticising hyperbole and then comparing Garnacho to Ronaldo. The gulf in talent between those two is lightyears wide.

You're also severely underplaying how bad he's been. This isn't a bad run of form, he's been rubbish for the entire season, and was generally poor last season too. A more accurate assessment at the moment is that he previously had a run of good form, as his average level has been bad.

As for the potential to be great, what is it that you think he can be great at? He's one of our worst players for passing and crossing, one of the worst players in the league at dribbling, he's weak, isn't particularly fast, there's just so little there. He works hard, to his credit, but we need to be aiming much higher than that.

I posted the Ronaldo comment because the vast majority of people wouldn't have been against selling him in the summer of 2006. Very few people saw his sudden revolution coming during that 06/07 season.

Garnacho has (at times) been a good player in a bad team. He's been overused and not really coached properly. Again, comparing him to Ronaldo who had Fergie and an experienced group of players around him.

He deserves a season with (at the very least) a fully functioning structure around him.

It's also hilarious that just over a week ago, we saw loads of "maybe we shouldn't have sold Elanga" comments on here. That was a player that contributed far less to the club than Garnacho has.

 

[Gopher Brown]

He's not though is he? Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole everytime a young player hits a bad run of form?

He's been a good player for us. He has the potential to be great. He's been played far too much for such a young age and is now playung in a new position and is essentially now on his 4th manager since he made his first team debut.

He's still only 20. Even a young Ronaldo (who was just as inconsistent at times) would have struggled in this environment.

At what point does a ‘bad run of form’ become ‘not good enough to continue with this team’?

4 goals and 1 assist in 30 league games is well short of the mark

He is still young, but he has been in the team for 3 seasons now and I don’t see any improvement since he was 17

 

[Guv77]

l

He's not though is he? Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole everytime a young player hits a bad run of form?

He's been a good player for us. He has the potential to be great. He's been played far too much for such a young age and is now playung in a new position and is essentially now on his 4th manager since he made his first team debut.

He's still only 20. Even a young Ronaldo (who was just as inconsistent at times) would have struggled in this environment.

new position or not, good environment or not…if he had any football IQ he would still be able to do the basics right…which he can’t.

 

[Solius]

I think one of his main issues is that he's not a powerful runner. He has speed but when he's on the ball he seems to slow a bit and be very prone to being nudged off the ball or doing something off balance.

 

[MadDogg]

Bruno checked his run before Garnacho went to play the ball. The latter took another couple of paces before playing the pass.

It's a fundamental flaw in Garnacho's game - he plays with his head down most of the time, so doesn't know what's happening on the pitch around him. This is another great example; he had no idea where Zirkzee was, and thought Bruno was still in a full sprint when he'd actually slowed down.

Bruno is slowing down a bit (which is what actually opens up the space to pass into), but he doesn't fully stop and start moving backwards until Garnacho's right foot is literally coming through to strike the pass.

It's not like I'm saying Garna did the right thing, just that it wasn't as bad as I first thought. In an ideal world he probably would have carried the ball forward a little more and forced the defender to commit to him before playing the pass to Zirkzee. In saying that, I don't really trust him to carry the ball any further without showing too much of it to the defender...

 

[Hammondo]

He's not though is he? Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole everytime a young player hits a bad run of form?

He's been a good player for us. He has the potential to be great. He's been played far too much for such a young age and is now playung in a new position and is essentially now on his 4th manager since he made his first team debut.

He's still only 20. Even a young Ronaldo (who was just as inconsistent at times) would have struggled in this environment.

Can we stop with this ridiculous hyperbole every time a young player has some pace, attempts to dribble a bit, and shoots a lot.

He hasn't shown at any point there is even a possibility of him being great. Just overrating another youth player as is done year after year.

 

[aeh1991]

He seems like a player who'll never reach high ceiling but still has some flair enough to attract interested clubs who'd pay decent money. Selling him this summer to a stupid club that offers 50m+ would be fantastic. Ideally Napoli so we can make a deal to sign Osimhen in return.

 

[Brightonian]

I've never personally seen 'x-factor' in Garnacho, including watching most of his games in the youth sides. Back then, he was fast, direct and could finish. That carried through into his start with the senior team where he was mostly an impact sub. I think a few attractive 'top corner' type finishes (and eventually of course that overhead kick) were what turned the perception of him from 'effective, scores goals, has made a good start' to 'future star?'

Ultimately it doesn't matter because right now he's not even doing what he was capable of when he broke through - beating his man occasionally, and scoring goals. His finishing seems to have fallen to pieces. Credit to him, I suppose, that he continues to be unimpeachable with his work rate and effort.

I thought yesterday was one of his worst games for United. Replacing him with someone else to be the pacy, direct #10 has become the second priority after buying a CF, for me. Dalot may be a pretty limited RWB option but he was solid again yesterday and looks much, much less of a problem than Garnacho.

 

[The Hilton]

I posted the Ronaldo comment because the vast majority of people wouldn't have been against selling him in the summer of 2006. Very few people saw his sudden revolution coming during that 06/07 season.

Garnacho has (at times) been a good player in a bad team. He's been overused and not really coached properly. Again, comparing him to Ronaldo who had Fergie and an experienced group of players around him.

He deserves a season with (at the very least) a fully functioning structure around him.

It's also hilarious that just over a week ago, we saw loads of "maybe we shouldn't have sold Elanga" comments on here. That was a player that contributed far less to the club than Garnacho has.

Ronaldo's prodigious talent was obvious for everyone to see. We may not have expected him to develop quite so quickly, but he had all the tools in his locker, technically and physically. Garnacho is lacking in both departments, the ability simply isn't there.

The times Garnacho has been good are few and far between, at best he's had a purple patch during his time in the first team, which was early on.

If we get a half-decent offer for him, we should be snatching it up and laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Von Mistelroum]

His main problems seem to be his attitude (thinks he's Ronaldo but in reality he's bang average) and his intelligence, or lack thereof on the pitch.

 

[Maagge]

Playing Zirkzee in was the better option though, no? Even with a perfect pass to Bruno he had to thread the needle to reach him and there would have been a defender in Bruno’s face as soon as he received it.

Yup. Run at the defender and release Zirkzee as soon as the defender engages Garnacho.

 

[Wolfbot]

That poor pass to Bruno on the break (and not playing in Zirkzee) I think shows that he probably doesn't have the natural feel needed for top level football, you can't really afford so many poor decisions/executions at the key moments that Garnacho exhibits. That goes for Hojlund's shooting and Onana's blunder last night as well. We could have come out of that game with a win rather than a draw.

It doesn't matter as much what the teams does overall if there are players consistently letting them down in the key moments.

Probably time for Garnacho to go, I like him, but it breaks down with him far too often.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Dribbling does not get better with age.

We actually need him in the side which is not ideal.

 

[Reiver]

I think some of the criticism he comes in for is over the top. Most of his deficiencies are what you might expect of a young player.
That being said, I don't know that Amorim will feel he fits in with his system in the long term.

 

[FlawlessVictory88]

I posted the Ronaldo comment because the vast majority of people wouldn't have been against selling him in the summer of 2006. Very few people saw his sudden revolution coming during that 06/07 season.

Garnacho has (at times) been a good player in a bad team. He's been overused and not really coached properly. Again, comparing him to Ronaldo who had Fergie and an experienced group of players around him.

He deserves a season with (at the very least) a fully functioning structure around him.

It's also hilarious that just over a week ago, we saw loads of "maybe we shouldn't have sold Elanga" comments on here. That was a player that contributed far less to the club than Garnacho has.

What evidence do you have that the vast majority of people wouldn't have been against selling him in 2006? He scored 9 premier league goals that season and was voted onto Premier league team of the season.

Garnacho has 4 premier league goals with 3 of them vs Leicester and Southampton, 2 of these goals where scored when we where already 2-0 up.

Ronaldo was constantly putting in superb performances hence why he got into team of the season, he was also 14th in Ballon D'or voting. Just a nonsense comparison.

 

[OverratedOpinion]

What evidence do you have that people wouldn't have been against selling him in 2006? He scored 9 premier league goals that season and was voted onto Premier league team of the season.

Garnacho has 4 premier league goals with 3 of them vs Leicester and Southampton, 2 of these goals where scored when we where already 2-0 up.

Ronaldo was constantly putting in superb performances hence why he got into team of the season, he was also 14th in Ballon D'or voting. Just a nonsense comparison.

There were some people but I think it was only in a hypothetical scenario where some thought it was either him or Rooney after the world cup.

If Garnacho was anywhere near the level of Ronaldo from 05/06 then we would be a much, much more dangerous team.

 

[Irwin99]

What evidence do you have that the vast majority of people wouldn't have been against selling him in 2006? He scored 9 premier league goals that season and was voted onto Premier league team of the season.

Garnacho has 4 premier league goals with 3 of them vs Leicester and Southampton, 2 of these goals where scored when we where already 2-0 up.

Ronaldo was constantly putting in superb performances hence why he got into team of the season, he was also 14th in Ballon D'or voting. Just a nonsense comparison.

In fairness, they were quite mixed performances and I remember that very well. Check out his performances against Chelsea and Benfica that year and they were some of the most abysmal displays you could imagine, probably just as bad as Garnacho. People were getting a bit fed up with his showboating and selfishness.

Ronaldo did have a good run of form during the middle part of the season, and I think that probably got him a slightly generous inclusion in the PFA team of the year but the 06-07 transformation was absolutely ridiculous. No one saw THAT level of improvement coming. The smart money would have been on Rooney being the main man and Ronaldo reaching a peak level of Giggs or Figo. Instead he was on the way to becoming one of the all time greats.