RedCafe has become toxic as feck.

A reflection of the state of the club.

Garethw said:

Everything surrounding the club right now breeds negativity. How do you expect the fans to remain positive?

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Enable sheep mode, ez.

People express what they feel and what they feel is affected by what's going on in or around the club. If it's especially toxic around here then it's a reflection of what's going on, not everyone can bury their heads in the sand and fart-whistle kumbaya outa their arse.

Robbie Boy said:

For me, the worst offenders on here are the patronising posters who get on their moral high horse at the mere sight of any Ole critique. Instead of debating, they resort to put downs and condescending rubbish. Their lack of self awareness towards the perceived 'toxicity' is mind boggling or just plain cognitive dissonance.

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The fans who are happy with the way things are going with Ole, and are optimistic for the future, are somehow the ones responsible for most of the anger and venom being spouted these days?! That's quite a stretch.

Ronaldo's ego said:

A reflection of the state of the club.

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Superb answer. Everything is a simple reaction and determination of results and performances.

Keep that state more than 5 years and everything will look toxic by default. Progress was made, but opponents made simply a better version of progress. Change that and positive momentum will erase any toxicity in time.

youngrell said:

Yes, 3 dismal league performances and that magnificent run post lockdown has completely vanished from people's minds.

In reality, it takes a lot less than these 3 performances to bring the mob out, though. 1 loss, even if it wasn't deserved, is enough for some to grab the pitch forks.

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Paul_Scholes18 said:

I still can't understand how we look so poorly now. It feels like a different team.
Fitness might be a small part, but we don't run and work together well as a unit at all.
Yet it is largely the same players.
I have never thought Ole was the right man for us long term. Although he is better than this with his management.
I wonder if things behind the scenes are worse than we think. Has he lost part of the squad?

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You can't see the wood for the trees. Just like the initial "Ole at the wheel" run, the performances started to get suspect after the initial burst and lesser teams were giving us problems. The forum was full of concerned fans thinking we may not make CL last season as we were getting dicked on by Chelsea, West Ham, Southampton, etc. If you think it's just these 3 results then that's amusing.

Genuine question - does anybody actually feel any better after venting?

Stacks said:

You can't see the wood for the trees. Just like the initial "Ole at the wheel" run, the performances started to get suspect after the initial burst and lesser teams were giving us problems. The forum was full of concerned fans thinking we may not make CL last season as we were getting dicked on by Chelsea, West Ham, Southampton, etc. If you think it's just these 3 results then that's amusing.

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Overall I have my own concerns regarding Ole and his ability, I am not blind to his shortcomings, but still support him of course.

My posts were not about those who have longstanding, legitimate concerns with the manager, it's those who can't help but get personal with disgusting insults after every tiny thing that goes wrong.

You can climb down off that horse now.

Annihilate Now! said:

And yet I'm addict.

Shit... Britney was right all along.

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Lucky you, I though Simle Plan was right.

youngrell said:

Overall I have my own concerns regarding Ole and his ability, I am not blind to his shortcomings, but still support him of course.

My posts were not about those who have longstanding, legitimate concerns with the manager, it's those who can't help but get personal with disgusting insults after every tiny thing that goes wrong.

You can climb down off that horse now.

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On my way down.

Hop onto Blue Moon or RAWK after a bad result, and you will know the meaning of a "toxic" environment.

This forum is full of pissed off fans because we came off a good streak after the restart, and everyone hoped that United would build on that through both efficient investing in the squad, and a continuation of good performances one the new season began. Neither of this has happened since, and we have been in this position before. It's a bit "groundhog day", and people want to vent.

You will get a lot of fans saying stupid stuff like "Cavani getting #7 is an outrage", or "Ole is a joke and should walk away right now", but the majority of frustration is justified.

patty123 said:

Are you for real, as all these threads that are being complained about, are not threads started by "newbies" but by you "older" posters, so you are as guilty as anyone in this issue.

It's also like when you start here and read the rules, one of them, no txt speech, look at how many "older" posters do that or simply reply with a child like emoji. It's like when you get full member staus on here, the rules go out the fecking window.

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In the old system you had to prove you could make interesting contributions to discussions and offer measured and reasonable responses in order to get the ten likes you needed.

Nowadays at least half the posts I see offer literally nothing of any value to anybody

But is it as Toxic as when we had Tosic? Who is in China now, don't you know.

Lentwood said:

In the old system you had to prove you could make interesting contributions to discussions and offer measured and reasonable responses in order to get the ten likes you needed.

Nowadays at least half the posts I see offer literally nothing of any value to anybody

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Fair point really.

shaky said:

The fans who are happy with the way things are going with Ole, and are optimistic for the future, are somehow the ones responsible for most of the anger and venom being spouted these days?! That's quite a stretch.

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Nope. You obviously didn't read my post correctly or you misconstrued it. I'm saying there's a certain 'type' of Ole in poster who is as bad a a certain of 'type' of Ole out poster. Both sides have very rational posters who are more than willing to have a sensible debate. However, there's a certain 'type' of Ole in poster: the one which doesn't debate in a constructive manner and would rather skew stats, attempt to come across as a 'better supporter', come across extremely condescending/patronising to anyone who shares a different view and overall just wum and fan the flames. There's only a handful of these posters - one in particular- and yeah, they are responsible for a-lot of the petty bickering. Their posts aren't hard to find nor is it difficult to decipher who I'm talking about.

I didn't 'blame' them on everything. My point was that these posters love to make out it's Ole out fans that cause the problems while lacking the self awareness to see how they majorly contribute to the perceived toxicity. Both sets have hardcore posters that go way above normal critique/defence of the manager and instead embark on personal crusades of their own. Both these sets lack basic nuance and rationale when discussing Ole. I'm ambivalent towards him and only recently I would rather he left as I don't think he's up to the task. But I'm certainly not going to go on a personal crusade against him nor do I need to repeat my stance ad nauseam.

I apologise if my first post lacked clarity. I think this is far and away the best footballing site there is, and the overwhelming majority are good folk - the ones who are clearly wums etc go on ignore - who are willing to share their views/opinions in a rational manner. However, my overarching point is that some need to take off the tinted specs are realise that there's an element of Ole in fans who are toeing the line and creating problems as much as the other side. It's always easier to blame the Out fans but objectively, I see the problem as a dual issue. It's only a handful of posters creating these issues on both sides.

R'hllor said:

Enable sheep mode, ez.

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Putting on tinted glasses and sticking heads in sand should help

amolbhatia50k said:

Yes you do

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Oh yeah

So Maguire fans are now so upset their hero is garbage they are going to start threads to insult those of us who know it

@UnitedSofa the problem with the OP is that I've seen it before and it's usually posted by those who disagree with the opinions which they call negative.

Now I do agree that there are indeed negative aspects or posts in the forum, but I don't think that's what you're talking about; you're talking about something different. So we need to identify exactly what you mean by toxic. Because your definition seems to be simply "that which you disagree with", which does nothing to discuss the actually unhealthy aspects on the forums.

When I see posts that are in my view unduly toxic I just go right past them and don’t let them bother me. That may not be possible for everyone but it really is not that hard.

For the most part I feel it's just regular football discussions in a club that isn't doing too well. The one thing I do find toxic is the Solskjaer issue. It's very divisive, to a level that it feels too similar to the pro-Netanyahu or anti-Netanyahu discussions in Israel (or, I would assume, pro-Trump or anti-Trump in the USA).

Amir said:

For the most part I feel it's just regular football discussions in a club that isn't doing too well. The one thing I do find toxic is the Solskjaer issue. It's very divisive, to a level that it feels too similar to the pro-Netanyahu or anti-Netanyahu discussions in Israel (or, I would assume, pro-Trump or anti-Trump in the USA).

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Must have quite the short memory then because we haven't reached a fraction of the toxicity that existed here during Jose's final months of hell...

It was truly a civil war on the caf those final 10 months

He'sRaldo said:

@UnitedSofa the problem with the OP is that I've seen it before and it's usually posted by those who disagree with the opinions which they call negative.

Now I do agree that there are indeed negative aspects or posts in the forum, but I don't think that's what you're talking about; you're talking about something different. So we need to identify exactly what you mean by toxic. Because your definition seems to be simply "that which you disagree with", which does nothing to discuss the actually unhealthy aspects on the forums.

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Not the OP, but surely the very post before yours, is a pretty textbook example of being toxic?

Childishly mocks a group of fans who may disagree with him and calls one of our players garbage. Again not that he has been poor, or hasn't lived up to expectation, or is playing like garbage, but that he is in fact garbage.

Rolaholic said:

Must have quite the short memory then because we haven't reached a fraction of the toxicity that existed here during Jose's final months of hell...

It was truly a civil war on the caf those final 10 months

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Maybe. I feel it's much worse this time around. To the level that the focus at times is not about United anymore but Solskjaer himself. It doesn't matter what we do on the pitch, but whether it fits ones Solsjaer agenda.

Also, while we are talking about this forum, the Solskjaer discussions have also turned ugly in other places.

There's one Israeli Facebook group I was a member of until the owner of the group threw out a bunch of people simply because they doubted Solskjaer while he worships him. Prior to that he invited one of those guys to a podcast he has and pretty much character assassinatied him on the air for not believing in Solskjaer.

Now THAT was civil war.

UnitedSofa said:

Not too sure where to put this, but I enjoyed coming to this place over the years and only lately have started to post more.

But I have seen far too many posts lately that are being abusive to our own manager, abusive to our own players, abusive to the owners, abusive to the CEO it's just disgusting to see.

Plenty of Ole Out threads that come up time and time again, 'predicting the date of when Ole gets the sack', "next man utd manager xx/xx" - I hate to see it because those type of threads are just full of the typical toxic football fan.

"Predict the date Ole gets the sack" What the fcuk?!

Our club has become divided and this isn't the place nor is it the time to discuss those matters, which have contributed to it.

But I'm fed up of seeing people attributed to our club get personal abuse and disgusting takes thrown their way.

Just now the Maguire one, where someone is calling for a new captain at the club. Calling Maguire all the names under the sun over a 30 second clip of him calming Rashford down, accepting the ref's decision and getting the players to get back into the game again. (Again not the time to discuss it, go to the thread) - 30 seconds! They're basing his whole captaincy on 1 30 second clip. What's he gonna do shout and scream at the ref and get booked himself?

The toxicity has skyrocketed since not getting Sancho and people are slating every single player we have bought this summer. Yet we haven't even seen them play yet.

RedCafe is in danger of becoming a toxic place to be for Man Utd fans and we need to get back to how it used to be. A fun place to discuss, everything Man Utd related.

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Social media constantly reinforces and encourages outrage on twitter- Facebook etc., it's no surprise that it trickles in the CAF. I agree, the knee jerk shit storm that follows every single damn thing United does is beyond exhausting and terrible for the club's mentality. Media sources know this and feed the fan base's appetitie for negativity with click bait garbage always skewed against United.

Not sure how talking about when someone gets fired is abuse. Not like we're going to his house and shouting at him about it. Assuming no one calls for violence, I don't see why it matters. The forum is a literal place to discuss the club, of course when the club is toxic from it's owners to its' manager to even the players, the forum will be toxic too.

Faetheshire86 said:

Not the OP, but surely the very post before yours, is a pretty textbook example of being toxic?

Childishly mocks a group of fans who may disagree with him and calls one of our players garbage. Again not that he has been poor, or hasn't lived up to expectation, or is playing like garbage, but that he is in fact garbage.

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There's something in that.

One thing to note about interactions is that dissenting opinions, especially those strongly voiced, can make one feel negative emotions, and that could lead to the opinions being erroneously described as toxic. That combined with the nature of online interactions where social etiquette is greatly reduced and a minority could seem like a mob, and you get conclusions such as a 'toxic forum'.

Now while I personally agree with your statement that the post could be described as toxic, the problem is that if I simply change some subjects in the post to fit what I agree with, that sentiment could go away quickly. For instance if I'm an 'Ole outer', I could frame the sentence to be: " So Ole fans are now so upset their hero is garbage they are going to start threads to insult those of us who know it" and completely agree with it, but if I'm a Maguire fan then the original post would be toxic.

And that ultimately is the problem. Bias often influences what people would view as toxic or (especially) not. Something which agrees with my point of view would be viewed nowhere near as toxic as something which doesn't, even though to a neutral both would be viewed as equally good or bad. That needs to be recognized first in order to identify which posts are actually toxic.

Amir said:

For the most part I feel it's just regular football discussions in a club that isn't doing too well. The one thing I do find toxic is the Solskjaer issue. It's very divisive, to a level that it feels too similar to the pro-Netanyahu or anti-Netanyahu discussions in Israel (or, I would assume, pro-Trump or anti-Trump in the USA).

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The thing that I don't like is how everything is black and white. You can't have an opinion without being labelled "agenda-driven" or "fanboy". There is no in-between.

He'sRaldo said:

There's something in that.

One thing to note about interactions is that dissenting opinions, especially those strongly voiced, can make one feel negative emotions, and that could lead to the opinions being erroneously described as toxic. That combined with the nature of online interactions where social etiquette is greatly reduced and a minority could seem like a mob, and you get conclusions such as a 'toxic forum'.

Now while I personally agree with your statement that the post could be described as toxic, the problem is that if I simply change some subjects in the post to fit what I agree with, that sentiment could go away quickly. For instance if I'm an 'Ole outer', I could frame the sentence to be: " So Ole fans are now so upset their hero is garbage they are going to start threads to insult those of us who know it" and completely agree with it, but if I'm a Maguire fan then the original post would be toxic.

And that ultimately is the problem. Bias often influences what people would view as toxic or (especially) not. Something which agrees with my point of view would be viewed nowhere near as toxic as something which doesn't, even though to a neutral both would be viewed as equally good or bad. That needs to be recognized first in order to identify which posts are actually toxic.

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I’ve been told “I’m talking shit” three times this week already. For having perfectly reasonable opinions on things.

Yeah it resembles Twitter on here at times

I dont post too often these days but I enjoy the podcast. A lifeboat of sane reasonable opinions amongst an ocean of shite.

Used to be a lot more fun

There’s something wrong when main members make a thread in the general to talk about football away from the football forum. I think it started as a joke about is the football forum safe to go in but now seems just like a Less frantic more pleasant general chat about matches and signings etc

lsd said:

So Maguire fans are now so upset their hero is garbage they are going to start threads to insult those of us who know it

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Great example of the kind of toxic post we could all do without.

If things go shit, I can understand a meltdown and a shitshow on here as well. My problem is that it's impossible to have a discussion most of the times here. I've even seen people who defend Ole being called cultists again, last time I saw shit like that was before Jose got the sack. Hope it ended there but I guess I was wrong.

Bilbo said:

Great example of the kind of toxic post we could all do without.

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You can't call out an entire site as being toxic because people have a different view to you . Maguire recieved a lot of praise last season for reasons unknown to me but i never threw my toys out of the pram. This season he has been rightly criticised for some truly horrible performances and some people who keep trying to justify his fee seem unable to handle it hence these threads

lsd said:

You can't call out an entire site as being toxic because people have a different view to you . Maguire recieved a lot of praise last season for reasons unknown to me but i never threw my toys out of the pram. This season he has been rightly criticised for some truly horrible performances and some people who keep trying to justify his fee seem unable to handle it hence these threads

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Is he really garbage though?

I’ll add to this I don’t appear so blunt. I think he struggles with the way we play as he hasn’t got a great turn and pace on him and he’s finding himself in no mans land quite a bit. He’s more suited to sitting deeper and clearing the box. I don’t think that means that someone who also has international caps is garbage

Faetheshire86 said:

Not the OP, but surely the very post before yours, is a pretty textbook example of being toxic?

Childishly mocks a group of fans who may disagree with him and calls one of our players garbage. Again not that he has been poor, or hasn't lived up to expectation, or is playing like garbage, but that he is in fact garbage.

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No one insults the fans of opposite opinions more than the top reds who think they know the right way of supporting the club and everyone else is spoilt.

I can bring many examples, just the OP who claims he's riding the moral high grounds have posted an exactly similar thread after Sunday saying our fanbase is a joke and fickle.

UnitedSofa said:

Absolute joke of a fanbase atm. The whole fanbase is toxic, a lot of them are fickle and have only experienced the highs and not the lows. So crave more of it.

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Here're several of his other old posts :

The entitlement and delusion of our fans never stops to astound me.

Because we don't get players in at the click of a finger we are all of a sudden 'pathetic' - would love to have seen the sh*t that would definitely got have flung Gills way if Twitter was as big as it is now.

Absolute joke.

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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tra...-before-posting.447057/page-640#post-24441838

The meltdown from entitled fans in here is going to be incredible! hahahaha!

Moans and whinges there’s no clear philosophy with LVG/Mou/Moyes

*Signs a manager with a clear playing style and philosophy*

WHY ARENT WE MAKING HUGE MARQUEE SIGNINGS FOR THE SAKE OF IT WE’RE A BANTER CLUB *Throws plates at wall, toys out of pram

Dybala and his alleged mercenary ways can go to Spurs for all I care. I want players who will play through their skin for the club not their wage.

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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tra...-before-posting.447057/page-893#post-24524532

Like I said in numerous other threads. Our club is full of entitled fans.

As JJ12 quite rightly said, if Dybala or Eriksen had signed, this thread would NEVER have been made and Ed would be a god.

Fickle, Privileged and Entitled.

I hope and pray that Ole and the youngsters coming through prove all the doubters wrong. A rebuild will take TIME. Some of you clearly don't have any patience whatsoever.

Our fanbase is an absolute joke at the moment.

Oh we got 3 new toys, instead of 4,5 or 6, so let's throw our toys out the pram!

Ugh.

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UnitedSofa said:

The entitlement reeks of desperation in here haha!

OLE OUT!

New manager bounce - results get poor

NEW MANAGER OUT!

Rinse and Repeat.

Too many of you have been blessed by good results and it shows.

God forbid anyone of you supported Liverpool the last decade or so....mid table fodder and an almost there team...change manager and what’dya know have him time instead of keep changing the manager and now one of the two best teams in the country.

Some of you guys don’t deserve to be called “fans” - a fan supports the team through thick and thin, no matter how long the poor results go you should always support the team. I bet most of you would stop supporting us if we ever got relegated!

Disgusting.

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You are entitled

We’ve made 3 signings this season, we all knew the club weren’t gonna be rebuilt in 1 window, it’s impossible.

I want players who want to play for the club and not a wage packet. If that means waiting for another couple windows then so be it.

The doom and gloom here is astounding. Just because we didnt sign 4,5,6 players we’re immediately crap.

This thread sums up the fans here perfectly

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/let’s-face-it-united-are-a-has-been-club.449540/

2 days prior he made a thread about how great we are and how amazing we’re looking to become:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/can...ebuild-new-core-is-nearing-completion.449419/

Yet because the signings weren’t made, gone from incredibly positive to incredibly negative.

The club simply cannot win

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https://www.redcafe.net/threads/tra...-before-posting.447057/page-895#post-24524780

UnitedSofa said:

It’s true though, a lot of United fans are spoilt & entitled.

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So far this is just the result of a quick search. I can bring plenty more of his posts which all revolve around only one thing : Our fanbase is toxic, entitled and spoilt.

He has probably posted about nothing in this forum bar moaning about the moaning here.

But then he has the nerve to post yet another thread saying the fanbase is toxic, 3 days after posting a similar thread on Sunday.

lsd said:

You can't call out an entire site as being toxic because people have a different view to you . Maguire recieved a lot of praise last season for reasons unknown to me but i never threw my toys out of the pram. This season he has been rightly criticised for some truly horrible performances and some people who keep trying to justify his fee seem unable to handle it hence these threads

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What made you think that all of this is about Maguire? I called your post toxic because it was out of place, but also because you sounded positively happy about that one of our players is, in your words, garbage. Whats the point?

He'sRaldo said:

There's something in that.

One thing to note about interactions is that dissenting opinions, especially those strongly voiced, can make one feel negative emotions, and that could lead to the opinions being erroneously described as toxic. That combined with the nature of online interactions where social etiquette is greatly reduced and a minority could seem like a mob, and you get conclusions such as a 'toxic forum'.

Now while I personally agree with your statement that the post could be described as toxic, the problem is that if I simply change some subjects in the post to fit what I agree with, that sentiment could go away quickly. For instance if I'm an 'Ole outer', I could frame the sentence to be: " So Ole fans are now so upset their hero is garbage they are going to start threads to insult those of us who know it" and completely agree with it, but if I'm a Maguire fan then the original post would be toxic.

And that ultimately is the problem. Bias often influences what people would view as toxic or (especially) not. Something which agrees with my point of view would be viewed nowhere near as toxic as something which doesn't, even though to a neutral both would be viewed as equally good or bad. That needs to be recognized first in order to identify which posts are actually toxic.

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I disagree, I find your version of the post equally toxic. You could change the name to any of our players and I would still find it toxic.

There's a few reasons I would find it toxic. Which is why I think it makes a great example.

• Provoking people who disagree with you
• Speaking in absolutes
• Reaching for ulterior motives instead of addressing the actual post

Lastly and probably most controversial is calling one of our players garbage. I don't understand how our fans can take pleasure in saying spiteful things about our players. When someone signs for United, as a fan, I feel a level of affinity towards them. I want them to do well, because I want the club to do well.

This shouldn't be confused with criticism, or even judging our players more favourably. If I said "Maguire has been poor this season. He hasn't lived up to my expectations, I think his lack of pace is causing us issues tactically" vs "Maguire is trash". Both are critical, but I think only one is toxic.

It is toxic and there are many that do not seem to be looking to have a discussion, they are looking to pick a fight. It is difficult to have a discussion with someone you don't know (think some guy at the bar) and nearly impossible when they can hide behind an anonymous user name. Lately, it has felt like there are a couple of opposing swarms of posters that scower the threads just looking for anyone that dares think differently, and then attack attack attack. It has not always been like this in my experience but at this point these opposing forces are drowning out anyone worthy of having a discussion with.

I would like to add that I don't think this is unique to RC - it is the same everywhere that allows anonymous posting with hundreds/thousands of users. Cannot imagine what this place would look like without the newby restrictions!

Faetheshire86 said:

I disagree, I find your version of the post equally toxic. You could change the name to any of our players and I would still find it toxic.

There's a few reasons I would find it toxic. Which is why I think it makes a great example.

• Provoking people who disagree with you
• Speaking in absolutes
• Reaching for ulterior motives instead of addressing the actual post

Lastly and probably most controversial is calling one of our players garbage. I don't understand how our fans can take pleasure in saying spiteful things about our players. When someone signs for United, as a fan, I feel a level of affinity towards them. I want them to do well, because I want the club to do well.

This shouldn't be confused with criticism, or even judging our players more favourably. If I said "Maguire has been poor this season. He hasn't lived up to my expectations, I think his lack of pace is causing us issues tactically" vs "Maguire is trash". Both are critical, but I think only one is toxic.

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Exactly. Our view of it is similar.

The issue is I think the OP is taking the stance I did in my example by simply calling the version he/she disagrees with toxic. Hence why I asked them to clarify what exactly they mean by toxic.

Terrible performances, constant let downs and terrible management from a team that people support doesn't inspire positivity? Shocker.

Whilst I do agree that it is a little over the top so early in the season, if things were to get better, the mood would improve.