Kendrick saying "I'm the biggest hater, I hate the way that you walk, the way that you talk, I hate the way that you dress, I hate the way that you sneak diss" is starting to feel so relatable to me. The thought of him being here another year - I'm so mudded. My head's gone
Erik ten Hag - Manchester United manager
- Thread starter sewey89
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It would be a disaster to sack him in 6 months. It'll be even harder to replace him. And we'll have the same masochists saying give him till x date, then y date, then z date, as we had all the way through this season.
It was painfully obvious we needed proper cover for Casemiro in the summer, and we spent the midfield budget on an injury prone forward to play in midfield instead. He lists these reasons as if it's out of his control, this was his doing.
I think when fans have made their minds up on a player/manager , it doesn’t really matter what they do or say at that stage. Not accusing you by to the way, we all do it.
If ETH says “look at that tackle, he could have killed him”, fans would be going mad. Fergie says it, it’s kind of funny and who gives a f**k, it’s riling up rivals and taking focus off our team so well done SAF.
Anthony has actually not done terrible the last few weeks, but fans are like “it doesn’t matter, he’s crap, too late”. But even if it’s too late for him to recover, shouldn’t we just not give him crap when he’s doing ok ?
Again, I’ve done stuff like this before, but it’s mad how we all rationalise our emotional responses to different things.
Mount was injured when we signed him wasn't he? I think Højlund was as well.
Pretty sure he was.
Moyes topped his CL group by winning all 6 group stage games and made the quarter finals. He was knocked out by Bayern Munich. ten Hag finished bottom of his CL group with a negative GD.
Moyes reached the quarter finals of that season's League Cup. ten Hag was knocked by Newcastle 2 games in. A 3-0 loss at home vs a Newcastle side which featured Dummett and Krafth at CB. It was Krafth's 1st start after 342 days out with an ACL.
Moyes had achieved 57 points after 34 games. ten Hag currrently has 54 points after 34 games.
Moyes had a GD of +16 when he was sacked. ten Hag currently has a GD of +1 after 34 games.
Moyes was given one permanent signing in the form of Fellaini during his 1st transfer window. ten Hag is almost 2 seasons in and has signed/loaned 16 playets. We eventually signed Mata from Chelsea in late January under Moyes. But he only got to manage him for 12 PL games before getting sacked.
We've lost 17 games in all competitions this season. It's a record number of defeats in a single season post SAF. Moyes lost 15 games out of his 51 in charge. ten Hag has already lost 17 times this season from 47 games.
Moyes was taking on the most difficult task in football, which was never going to be easy. It was made more difficult by being stuck with Woodward who was new to the role and didn't have a clue what he was doing. Moyes inherited an ageing team. Rio would end up at QPR a year after SAF retired. He was over the hill and retired by the end of that season. Vida was over the hill and injury prone at that point. He joined Inter on a free and was brutally exposed. He also basically retired just a year after leaving. Giggs was a player-coach by that point. Fletcher was suffering from colitis and not really available. van Persie started to pick up more injuries and miss games. Nani had a lot of injuries that season. The team was on its last legs by the time SAF left. Some young talent like De Gea, Jones, Rafael and Welbeck was given to Moyes. Only De Gea went on to fulfill his potential.
This season and the past 14-15 months in general have been terrible. There's no other way to describe it.
I think your overall point is important but the figures are off.
Chelsea last year made the QFs and made 95m euro in CL revenue, or about 82m pounds. A similar performance in the Europa League nets you around 25m euro or 20m pounds, so there is roughly a 60m pound difference.
From what I understand the contractual bonuses for making CL are not nearly as high as 25% for most players. You'll save a little bit on the wage bill but not nearly as much as 25% in aggregate. If you look at data on wage bills over time the trend lines are relatively smooth even when clubs are falling in and out of the CL, there aren't these big jumps up and down like what you would see if the savings were anywhere near 25%.
For many commercial deals, there are also bonuses for playing in the CL. So what you save in wages is offset to some degree by what you lose in commercial revenue.
Heres a hypothetical for you.
Let’s say this summer is alot about purging players and maybe getting in longer term quality players. So let’s say ETH is working with INEOs to help rebuild in a manner where INEOs are getting the club/squad in a position whereby replacing managers can be done fast and the squad will be in a solid position regardless of replacement.
So next season , regardless of manager , is not about top 4 or winning cups, but primarily about restructuring everything for a longer term sustainable plan. Even mid table is a possibility depending on sales.
Would you be ok with ETH, if it was felt keeping him has zero meaningful impact on their longer term plans and effectively they see him as an interim with the option to extend/replace next summer depending on how well he manages what he has next season ? Even the extra 20
Million + in sacking and replacing coaches , could get us one of extra young player.
You might not like it and think ETH isn’t good enough , but can you see the why that may be a possible reason why INEOs would keep him for the time being ?
Yeh, I get I’m not accurate , I just haven’t seen exact figures.
Even if you say it’s 100 million for CL including commercial revenue etc (which I think is generous given we’ve been in QFs 3 times in 11 years), you still should be able to make back over half that from player wage/bonus savings and even 25 mil from Europa shouldn’t be sniffed at.
6.16 in Carrington out nowDont forget Amrabat.
I actually dislike people who continue to defend ten Hag more than the man himself at this point. There's only really 4-5 of you in this thread these days.
You yourself made up your mind that the structure is to blame for most things and push that narrative regularly. Come rain or shine.
ten Hag being a success going forward would mean that he'd have to start doing the opposite of pretty much everything we've seen for over a year now. That would piss me off, seeing someone rewarded for his failings.
I do think it's interesting that the two times Neville went to Carrington to interview ETH were: Last season when he started horribly and Liverpool were next and now when he's on a horrible run of form and potentially could be sacked soon.
We did get an answer to his famous We can't play like Ajax quote where ETH basically says we didn't have the players to play that way and he didn't want to change the 'nature' of certain players.
His answer to the too many shots on goal question was the main one though. I suggest everyone listen to that. He blames the lack of a consistent back 4 and that it has led to a lack of possession which affects the whole team. Also says we aren't suited to be a defensive team which is interesting and I think an indictment of our lack of physicality and aggression
One thing about ETH is he loves the reasoning of we did it once so we can do it again. Last season he kept saying we beat x,y,z team so that shows we have what it takes to beat top teams. This season he's saying we were good defensively last season with everyone fit so we can do it again. It's about consistency though and I don't think he can provide that, if anything that attitude of his shows why he loves playing players like Rashford and Bruno even when they are performing horribly and doesn't play Amad as much. He's always looking to past results as an indicator for the future which might seem reasonable but it leaves you lacking in forward thinking and planning.
We did get an answer to his famous We can't play like Ajax quote where ETH basically says we didn't have the players to play that way and he didn't want to change the 'nature' of certain players.
His answer to the too many shots on goal question was the main one though. I suggest everyone listen to that. He blames the lack of a consistent back 4 and that it has led to a lack of possession which affects the whole team. Also says we aren't suited to be a defensive team which is interesting and I think an indictment of our lack of physicality and aggression
One thing about ETH is he loves the reasoning of we did it once so we can do it again. Last season he kept saying we beat x,y,z team so that shows we have what it takes to beat top teams. This season he's saying we were good defensively last season with everyone fit so we can do it again. It's about consistency though and I don't think he can provide that, if anything that attitude of his shows why he loves playing players like Rashford and Bruno even when they are performing horribly and doesn't play Amad as much. He's always looking to past results as an indicator for the future which might seem reasonable but it leaves you lacking in forward thinking and planning.
Disagree. He's been extremely defensive in recent interviews, to the point he has started talking total shite that everyone knows isn't true, even the people who defend him. He does not sound like someone who has been given any assurances to me at all. If they really do believe in him that much then nothing would be stopping them from backing him publicly or even extending his contract now.
Look at the number of players who have improved under ETH vs players who have regressed under ETH? Has even one player performed up to their potential? Even Mainoo now seems to be regressing. This is the exact opposite of what should happen under an effective coach and training. How the club are persisting with this guy is absolutely mind-blowing.
If INEOS think he's the man for the future they need to tell him that, give him a new contract, engage in trying to work out what sort of football he wants to play and then set the Executives away to find the players he supposedly needs.
If they don't, they need to try and identify who they think that mans is, get him in, and then do the same.
How can you restructure the playing staff if you don't know what you're restructuring it for?
By this analogy, why even have a manager at all? They may as well just sack him and all his staff and put an actual interim manager in. But then who is deciding what type of players we need? What if the new manager next summer doesn't want half of the players you've brought in?
The new footballing structure at top clubs is such that there's some consistency as to moving managers on, but generally a manager will have some say in the style they want to employ and therefore, be part of recruitment process.
Without a long term footballing plan, which has to involve the head coach/manager, you're going back to scattergun transfers.
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Im not defending him, I’m asking a question and wondering how much the clubs issues have affected this season. Not being completely sure on ETH is simply accepting there are other variables making it difficult for me to be absolutely confident replacing him is imperative relative to where the club is.
Asking;
- how have injuries affected things
- how has club sale affected things ?
- how have multiple player dramas affected things ?
- how has taking over an already dysfunctional club affected things ?
Is not “a defence of ETH”. It’s asking how reasonable it is to compare Uniteds progress with other clubs who don’t have all these things going on the last 18 months.
You and many others, being absolutely 100% confident in your opinion on him is your business. But it feels like there’s an insecurity in this belief when some people don’t seem to be able to add nuances or even wonder if maybe things aren’t as clear cut on ETH. Doubt in most things , especially when we aren’t privy to all the facts INEOs are, is prudent.
How many players have improved at United since 2013? Almost like there’s some man United infection ?
Maybe Mainoo is a young player who has played more then he was supposed to and like ALL young players will go through inconsistent patches ?
The linear expectations for absolutely everything are insane and aren't worth responding to.
I'm very secure, thanks.
You're also welcome to post your excuses regularly. I think you're completely delusional and keep going around in circles on a regular basis.
Each to their own.
Stop trying to lower standards. Are you a rival supporter hibernating all these years?
I don’t trust ETH to recruit the right players or his matchday tactics.
It's true that United as a club over the past 10 years have major issues in many areas - with hiring the wrong managers being a huge part of it. And going back to 2013, this season is an outlier with just how poor the performance has been. We have by far the worst goal differential, finished last place in an easy UCL group and have been consistently dominated by crap teams virtually all season long. Now, we are fighting for a EL spot when 4th place was easily achievable.
And again, has any one single player lived up to their potential under ETH?
INEOS are going to fix that by signing all the players going forward.
ten Hag couldn't get much change out of the ones he's managed before or admired at Ajax. It'll be much better working with strangers.
I think it comes down to if they believe in ETHs football philosophy/vision. If they truly think with the right players and less injuries we could actually challenge and get better then it could be reasonable to keep him. I don't think keeping him as an interim as you say will yield positive results though, he will have less power in the dressing room and we've seen how that worked out for Ralf. INEOS have to give him a new contract and back him as their man or hire their own guy and have a fresh start in all the footballing positions. I think the second option is just must more appealing and more likely to work out better for the club.
He's an 18 year old that's been playing in a broken team and with no real midfield partner for the most part. I don't think his performance levels have dipped I just think some games we simply get over ran.
But this doesn't really add up - having a concentrated back four with Lisandro, Shaw, and Varane fully fit for big portions really helped, but the overarching reason why we were good last season defensively is because of the tactical set up. We lined up a lot deeper, and our midfield shape was a lot tighter.
Having our first choice back four in this tactical set up with the midfield chasm isn't changing that much, I don't think.
Yeah I don't buy it either. Like others have said he's had a decent lineup out plenty of times this season especially early and we've still struggled. I agree with you that it's primarily a tactical set up problem. Also the idea that you need your best 11 otherwise it all falls apart is just not how top level football works. Spoiler alert: We're going to get injuries next year too and the year after that.
Anyone with half a brain can see that this is not all the managers fault. I've not seen anybody on here suggest that it is, nor absolve the club of any blame for where we are now. That doesn't mean that the manager isn't at fault, nor that he's good enough to do the job to the level that should be expected.
I personally take the view that notwithstanding the challenges he's faced (both, short term, and the legacy of longer term issues) which clearly would have made a very succesful season pretty much impossible, this season has been a disaster.
Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion, but some of the arguments used to defend someone who's supposed to be in the elite, when he is objectively doing a very poor job by most, if not all sensible metrics is baffling to me.
Even notwithstanding red flags, i.e. his poor player judgment and bizarre in game decisions; had we made some progress this season towards something resembling a system that looks like it might work - even if the injuries had hampered that, then I would have been happy with him staying on. As it is he looks like he's losing the plot, setting us up to be dominated by average teams week after week, and has now taken as stubborn a stance as he can take to make a point that he's the clever one, and everyone else is wrong. The constant excuses don't endear him to anyone either.
For me, he is doing nothing that indicates he is ever going to come good.
Playing in a low block is not something the club wants going forward; that decision has been made and Ten Hag has decided not to revert to it even in light of the injuries, because he wants the squad to keep working on it.
It would be going backwards, not forwards. We will see a low block sporadically, like the away game against Pool.
An interesting point from his recent interview was his refusal to be more pragmatic and to instead try and evolve the style of play into more attacking football as something to build on for the future- this is what Ole tried to do in his third season and he got it horribly wrong too. Also, and i somewhat doubt this, I remember Jose saying that he wanted to change the football in his third season and of course he failed as well (he was moaning all summer about not getting a more progressive defender who could play from the back).
It seems to be a constant cycle of a few seasons of battling for top 4, achieving it, and then failing to take the next step. Achieving top 4 should be the absolute minimum for a club like United but sometimes I think it might have actually done some harm in deluding us all into thinking that our teams of the past 11 years or so were better than they actually were and that there was a solid foundation to build on. That 81 point season under Jose was bullshit really- and he pretty much admitted as such- similarly, the 74 points under Ole was really not that impressive either. Same with last season with the 75 point finish.
It seems to be a constant cycle of a few seasons of battling for top 4, achieving it, and then failing to take the next step. Achieving top 4 should be the absolute minimum for a club like United but sometimes I think it might have actually done some harm in deluding us all into thinking that our teams of the past 11 years or so were better than they actually were and that there was a solid foundation to build on. That 81 point season under Jose was bullshit really- and he pretty much admitted as such- similarly, the 74 points under Ole was really not that impressive either. Same with last season with the 75 point finish.
Clearly I have time on my hands but I've gone through the fixtures from this season and last season. I didn't watch every game and will have forgotten some performances, but I'd say these were really good performances:
- Chelsea (H) - PL 23/24
- Crystal Palace (H) EFL Cup 23/24
- Real Betis (H) EL 22/23
- Spurs (H) PL 22/23
I think last season we had a lot of good performances - not necessarily stand out performances but plenty of good wins with 7/10 performances where we deserved to win without us looking particularly impressive.
Let's not forget we looked just as bad at the start of this season when we had nearly everybody fit including mount, we all remember that opener against wolves when we were just as rotten as our last game against burnley
It is becoming more obvious that he is staying. This week we had;
1. Rumours how Ineos want him to stay in couple of media
2. His big interview with Neville
3. He is planning summer transfers with Wilcox
If he is going to be fired then Ineos would be sending different picture in public.
1. Rumours how Ineos want him to stay in couple of media
2. His big interview with Neville
3. He is planning summer transfers with Wilcox
If he is going to be fired then Ineos would be sending different picture in public.
Word is: he's safe until 2034 no matter what. New contract until 2034 gonna be announced next week.
The Cantona one was a prime example
Martin Edwards and Fergie were discussing United's goal shortage, when Leeds phoned enquiring about Denis Irwin, the reply was he wasn't for sale, Fergie pushed a piece of paper under Edwards nose with Cantona? written on it, the deal was done in literally five minutes.
I can't remember the player involved, but the deal was being done by United representatives in Spain, when it leaked that United were involved, United walked away because they knew the price would literally double.
Gascoigne was another case, Fergie phoned him direct, no agents or anything involved
Berbatov, everyone thought he was on his way to sign for City, but he was on his way to United, that was the best bluff ever
No good sources, though.
The interview with Neville could have been put in place weeks ago. It could have been set up by ten Hag's camp themselves. He didn't come across well in it anyway. If that was the intention.
INEOS don't want constant leaks or media briefings.
I wouldn't be surprised if INEOS do bottle sacking him though. They'll make mistakes. That could be their 1st one.
They have a great opportunity to completely clean house and start a new era without any of the key figures from the past few years. Hopefully they take it.
I'm at a point where I don't really care anymore. I'm numb and getting number. There's nothing really likeable about the club anymore. This would just add to the banter.
Personally I think they’re downplaying it and not giving the media anything to report on by putting on a united front (no pun intended).
However if he was to stay, then a significant player cull and recruitment drive needs to take place in the summer for me to be somewhat on board, and even then I would say it’s a risk to keep going with him despite the new players because who‘s to say the first game of the next season will be like the first game of this season? He will be under fairly intense pressure first game of the season.
I liked the interview. We have indeed seen that the team can achieve high levels no matter whether it is only for a half or a 30 min spell. People who've already made up their mind that he should be sacked would never admit it, but we do know his style of play even though many a time things break down as soon as we try to progress the ball into midfield.
The challenge his team has failed to meet thus far is consistency in performance and mental application, however, achieving it at the levels we've seen, would lead to title contending form so it is not shocking that they are still stuggling with it in the second season. Also, bringing in good young players during a transition period means you must naturally give it time for that foundation to set, while you're getting rid of the players that don't meet the standards among other things. His constant reminder about the process in answering many questions is definitely legitimate and sensible, only the people with behind the scenes access could reasonably dismiss it if it wasn't visible in how the team was actually being trained.
I have gripes with EtH especially his in-game management and treatment of undeperformers, but the positives I see in the way he wants to play and the team he's started to build during such a chaotic period is still compelling to back him. The barrage of injuries is clear in itself to affect the team massively, the fact he needs to mention it as often is an indication of the crazed media enviornment than anything else.
The challenge his team has failed to meet thus far is consistency in performance and mental application, however, achieving it at the levels we've seen, would lead to title contending form so it is not shocking that they are still stuggling with it in the second season. Also, bringing in good young players during a transition period means you must naturally give it time for that foundation to set, while you're getting rid of the players that don't meet the standards among other things. His constant reminder about the process in answering many questions is definitely legitimate and sensible, only the people with behind the scenes access could reasonably dismiss it if it wasn't visible in how the team was actually being trained.
I have gripes with EtH especially his in-game management and treatment of undeperformers, but the positives I see in the way he wants to play and the team he's started to build during such a chaotic period is still compelling to back him. The barrage of injuries is clear in itself to affect the team massively, the fact he needs to mention it as often is an indication of the crazed media enviornment than anything else.