Aaron Wan-Bissaka | The Ornacle speaks: It is done.

[Suvvernmanc]

AWB is the best available for us now and a fee of £50-55m is about right. Kyle Walker and Mendy went for £50m 2 seasons ago. AWB is English so there's the English tax to add on. Plus prices go up every season anyway due to the current 'mad market'.

I think with the rumours of us making a bid and it being too low for crystal palace probably is us doing what every team does and starting the bidding at slightly lower than the asking price. No team goes straight in with the asking price. There is always a middle ground, money wise, to be found between 2 clubs doing a transfer.

With that being said, I believe we will sign him for £55m + a few million in add ons.

 

[Rozay]

Even though he dumped Fosu Mensah out of the Palace side... yeah sure

Ridiculous to say he’s not better than Fosu-Mensah.

I don’t use algorithm to rate players, I watch them. Sets of circumstances can quickly change the course of young players careers, and Wn Bissaka only took TFMs place 2/3 through the season due to TFM not being eligible to play against us. With AWB being their own player, logic would dictate they prioritise him.

TFMs loan spell at Fulham was a disaster, Wan Bissaka probably wouldn’t be as impressive if he was sent there for a year either, but I’ve seen Fosu-Mensah play well often enough to know the level he’s capable of. He was very good for Palace, and was also for us before he went to Palace, and his qualities and limitations are the exact same. He is physically exceptional. He is strong and fast and can shit down any winger one-on-one on his day. He was getting rave reviews at Palace, and put in a particularly brilliant display against Sané where he shut him down. Bissaka has no next level. He’s just been afforded a more settled run, but has shown no qualities TFM hasn’t, and given TFM is still only 21 himself, I would suspect those qualities are still there.

The circumstances of spending the last 2.5 seasons playing across 3 clubs are a factor, and one that AWB would likely have also found a challenge. However, when he played well, which at Palace was very often, he showed a similar level. Go back and review it yourself before some simple mathematical equation to judge players.

 

[Raees]

I don’t use algorithm to rate players, I watch them. Sets of circumstances can quickly change the course of young players careers, and Wn Bissaka only took TFMs place 2/3 through the season due to TFM not being eligible to play against us. With AWB being their own player, logic would dictate they prioritise him.

TFMs loan spell at Fulham was a disaster, Wan Bissaka probably wouldn’t be as impressive if he was sent there for a year either, but I’ve seen Fosu-Mensah play well often enough to know the level he’s capable of. He was very good for Palace, and was also for us before he went to Palace, and his qualities and limitations are the exact same. He is physically exceptional. He is strong and fast and can shit down any winger one-on-one on his day. He was getting rave reviews at Palace, and put in a particularly brilliant display against Sané where he shut him down. Bissaka has no next level. He’s just been afforded a more settled run, but has shown no qualities TFM hasn’t, and given TFM is still only 21 himself, I would suspect those qualities are still there.

The circumstances of spending the last 2.5 seasons playing across 3 clubs are a factor, and one that AWB would likely have also found a challenge. However, when he played well, which at Palace was very often, he showed a similar level. Go back and review it yourself before some simple mathematical equation to judge players.

I’ve watched them both closely and Wan Bissaka football IQ is on another level to Fosu-Mensah.

He’s more accomplished on the ball in terms of knowing how to pick his passes and can hold onto it under pressure without losing it. He’s no TAA going forward but he’s vastly underrated on the ball. He's similar to Shaw in that respect, but IMO he's got a tad more directness to him but less quality.

Defensively it’s not even close - AWB is one of the finest young full backs in Europe from a defensive perspective - he’s rock solid and has great recovery pace and positioning. Perfect Simeone/Jose right back.

Fosu was a talented lad but there is a transitional period where you need to start showing your effect on the pitch and your decisions are becoming spot on more often than not and the fact he still hasn’t broken through even on loans is saying a helluva lot.

 

[TwoSheds]

Im not worried about Dalot, as teaching players how to defend properly is the easiest thing to develop for a player. Teaching a player how to attack is a lot harder, and usually has to been done at a early stage of their careers, as either you have the technical skills needed, or you don't. When it comes to defending, a lot of that comes from experience, you learn how to defend through regular game time. Its said Gary Neville did not learn how to defend properly until he turned 30, but then he turned into the best fullback in the league. Dalot has all the attributes needed, give him time, and he will develop into the fullback we want.

When I seen Crystal Palace play, AWB has been staying at his own half. I know thats how Crystal Palace plays, but if we pay £50m+ for AWB, and he don't know how to attack properly, he will be labeled as a gigantic flop. If AWB is just another CB turned FB, I would not expect him to develop the technical skills needed to attack for us. A example is Declan Rice, a CB turned DM. I would never expect Rice to develop the technical abilities to play DM for us, as he is just to old at this stage of his career. That does not mean that Rice can not do a great job as a DM for a mid-table team.

Look at Darmian, another great defensive fullback, given the freedom and opportunity to go forward and attack, look how that turned out. You need to have shown the technical attributes needed at a young age, if we are going to have something to build on.

Also if Dalot needs a experienced Premier League proven fullback to look up to there is always Shaw. Beside that I agree with what is being said. Having 3 fullbacks in the squad when pre-season starts is needed, and hopefully one of the academy kids can take Youngs place, bit of a gamble, but worth taking if you ask me.

Gary Neville didn't learn how to defend until he turned 30? If you'd said 25 then I could have understood as he did make mistakes and play people onside sometimes but by age 27 he was in the top 3 right backs in the world indisputably so...

And Wan Bissaka is definitely not a CB, not sure he's even ever played there so I've no idea what you're talking about.

Also, regards the Fosu Mensah comparison, AWB has excellent positioning for his age whereas Fosu Mensah's is usually atrocious, that's the main difference between them in my view.

 

[Cassidy]

I don’t use algorithm to rate players, I watch them. Sets of circumstances can quickly change the course of young players careers, and Wn Bissaka only took TFMs place 2/3 through the season due to TFM not being eligible to play against us. With AWB being their own player, logic would dictate they prioritise him.

TFMs loan spell at Fulham was a disaster, Wan Bissaka probably wouldn’t be as impressive if he was sent there for a year either, but I’ve seen Fosu-Mensah play well often enough to know the level he’s capable of. He was very good for Palace, and was also for us before he went to Palace, and his qualities and limitations are the exact same. He is physically exceptional. He is strong and fast and can shit down any winger one-on-one on his day. He was getting rave reviews at Palace, and put in a particularly brilliant display against Sané where he shut him down. Bissaka has no next level. He’s just been afforded a more settled run, but has shown no qualities TFM hasn’t, and given TFM is still only 21 himself, I would suspect those qualities are still there.

The circumstances of spending the last 2.5 seasons playing across 3 clubs are a factor, and one that AWB would likely have also found a challenge. However, when he played well, which at Palace was very often, he showed a similar level. Go back and review it yourself before some simple mathematical equation to judge players.

That is one game, not an entire season, he kept his place because he was far superior to TFM, its very simple

 

[Rozay]

That is one game, not an entire season, he kept his place because he was far superior to TFM, its very simple

And at what point in the season was that? April?

 

[Aloysius's Back 3]

I don't see much difference in the way Dalot plays and Meunier plays.

 

[Paxi]

He's also said they aren't in for Bruno Fernandes but there seems to be a lot of sources saying they are.

Don't take these guys's word for certain. It's mostly guess work.

Actually Sam Lee said that City are in for Bruno. It’s just that City denied their interest.

 

[Beachryan]

I like him, he's the right profile for what we're trying to build and he's at a club where he should want a move to us.

But if it doesn't pan out, one more season of proving he can do it isn't a bad thing at his age, and there are more affordable options that potentially could enable us to fill other holes.

 

[Rozay]

Some quotes from Crystal Palace forums.

Looking at their forum, him and RLC have been by far their best players. Seems more a case of everyone else being shite, rather than them being amazing though.

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Some comments on him in the player's rating

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Playing really well so far but could be because he is having so much to do.

Seems to be handing Lemar with ease first half

Just a tremendous defender

Mbappe in his back pocket

He's a diamond in 2 piles of shit right now

Together with Axel we've surely got the two biggest u20 defensive talents in the league on our books.

We got the biggest u23 one in Bailly also mind.

No other player has made more tackles and interceptions than TFM (18) so far in the EPL.


Mensah made the most tackles (9) today for Holland against France while the next closest was 4. Had the most blocks (2) as well.

Also made 2 critical goal saving tackles. Netherlands were poor but TFM was definitely a bright spot and had an exceptional debut.

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A 30 second scroll through Twitter shows the fans of rate him highly and feel sorry for him having to put up with the rest of the team.

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Has to be recalled.

Should be in the first team.

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Really nice work at 1:23.

Would ease a lot of worries if he came in next season as our first team RB. My only worry is if he's as good in attack.

He's already better than every RB at the club barring Tony, who has to sometimes miss matches. Not sure how Valencia's injury is healing up, but surely Jose is tempted to bring Fosu Mensah back now?

We can give them Darmian free of charge? Please?

How? His defending is by far his best attribute and he has equally had some very impressive games at CB. His positioning has also been much better at CB than RB in the past.

Excited reading that he was impressive in attack today as it is his biggest weakness at RB. Really hoping he comes back next season and Mourinho gives him a proper back-up role.

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From Sky Sports.. Anyone got the highlights?

Man of the match - Timothy Fosu-Mensah
Another stellar showing from the Manchester United loanee as he helped his loan employers to a second clean sheet in three Premier League games.

The Dutchman put in a performance that defied his 20 years, winning an extraordinary seven tackles as the Eagles kept Sean Dyche's men at bay and ground out a narrow victory over this season's overperformers.

starting at RB again today. 16th league start this season, not a bad loan spell at all in terms of playing time.

Been quite a good loan spell so far. I'll be disappointed if he isn't our backup RB next season. Wishful thinking but would like him to get a game or two at CB too.

I've seen him play for Palace, very solid defender - pace, strength - but going forward not that great, looks unsure of himself (that may be also due to Palace playing bad football).

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@Cassidy @Raees

These are all from his season at Palace. People forget very quickly. He’s already got a very good season under his belt at PL. At he and AWB’s age, it is more about the qualities they have, a lot can still change. In terms of qualities, they have shown a similar level. TFM has had to perform under a far tougher set of circumstances, with constantly moving around clubs. AWB’s stock is just up at the minute, but his footballing qualities are not superior.

 

[Cassidy]

@Cassidy @Raees

These are all from his season at Palace. People forget very quickly. He’s already got a very good season under his belt at PL. At he and AWB’s age, it is more about the qualities they have, a lot can still change. In terms of qualities, they have shown a similar level. TFM has had to perform under a far tougher set of circumstances, with constantly moving around clubs. AWB’s stock is just up at the minute, but his footballing qualities are not superior.

No I didn't forget, I just recognise 1 AWB has been far better. 2 TFM didn't progress at Fulham

 

[Nickosaur]

I don’t use algorithm to rate players, I watch them. Sets of circumstances can quickly change the course of young players careers, and Wn Bissaka only took TFMs place 2/3 through the season due to TFM not being eligible to play against us. With AWB being their own player, logic would dictate they prioritise him.

TFMs loan spell at Fulham was a disaster, Wan Bissaka probably wouldn’t be as impressive if he was sent there for a year either, but I’ve seen Fosu-Mensah play well often enough to know the level he’s capable of. He was very good for Palace, and was also for us before he went to Palace, and his qualities and limitations are the exact same. He is physically exceptional. He is strong and fast and can shit down any winger one-on-one on his day. He was getting rave reviews at Palace, and put in a particularly brilliant display against Sané where he shut him down. Bissaka has no next level. He’s just been afforded a more settled run, but has shown no qualities TFM hasn’t, and given TFM is still only 21 himself, I would suspect those qualities are still there.

The circumstances of spending the last 2.5 seasons playing across 3 clubs are a factor, and one that AWB would likely have also found a challenge. However, when he played well, which at Palace was very often, he showed a similar level. Go back and review it yourself before some simple mathematical equation to judge players.

this is such nonsense!

TFM has always been dodgy as feck positionally and defensively, he uses his pace and strength to get him out of trouble. Which might look impressive to your 'eye' but it doesn't take any 'mathematical equation' to see that AWB is superior to Fosu Mensah in almost every way.

 

[Rozay]

No I didn't forget, I just recognise 1 AWB has been far better. 2 TFM didn't progress at Fulham

He didn’t, I’ve maintained his loan there was a disaster. So because of a poor development year, should we move on to the next flavour of the month who has shown he doesn’t really have superior qualities to what our own young player showed a year before? For £50m?

I’m not against signing a RB. If we signed Cancelo , I can appreciate that he has shown a level and qualities that Tim has never shown, or shown he may even develop later. With AWB, it’s just a case of which of the two had the better last season for me. Both are young players and nothing set in stone. Both have shown the same sort of strengths and weaknesses at PL level. While AWB has a better last season, given Tim is only 21, he’s obviously not ‘finished’.

I cannot see what Wan-Bissaka has over him, other than being the more recent of the two to be in good form.

 

[Rozay]

this is such nonsense!

TFM has always been dodgy as feck positionally and defensively, he uses his pace and strength to get him out of trouble. Which might look impressive to your 'eye' but it doesn't take any 'mathematical equation' to see that AWB is superior to Fosu Mensah in almost every way.

Oh shut up.

 

[Bestietom]

I don’t use algorithm to rate players, I watch them. Sets of circumstances can quickly change the course of young players careers, and Wn Bissaka only took TFMs place 2/3 through the season due to TFM not being eligible to play against us. With AWB being their own player, logic would dictate they prioritise him.

TFMs loan spell at Fulham was a disaster, Wan Bissaka probably wouldn’t be as impressive if he was sent there for a year either, but I’ve seen Fosu-Mensah play well often enough to know the level he’s capable of. He was very good for Palace, and was also for us before he went to Palace, and his qualities and limitations are the exact same. He is physically exceptional. He is strong and fast and can shit down any winger one-on-one on his day. He was getting rave reviews at Palace, and put in a particularly brilliant display against Sané where he shut him down. Bissaka has no next level. He’s just been afforded a more settled run, but has shown no qualities TFM hasn’t, and given TFM is still only 21 himself, I would suspect those qualities are still there.

The circumstances of spending the last 2.5 seasons playing across 3 clubs are a factor, and one that AWB would likely have also found a challenge. However, when he played well, which at Palace was very often, he showed a similar level. Go back and review it yourself before some simple mathematical equation to judge players.

I agree. I followed Fosu through the academy and thought for sure he would go on to make it here. I still feel he can, and is better than some of the deadwood we have here. Given a chance I think he could play as a DM but there are a few positions he could fit into.

 

[Cassidy]

He didn’t, I’ve maintained his loan there was a disaster. So because of a poor development year, should we move on to the next flavour of the month who has shown he doesn’t really have superior qualities to what our own young player showed a year before? For £50m?

I’m not against signing a RB. If we signed Cancelo , I can appreciate that he has shown a level and qualities that Tim has never shown, or shown he may even develop later. With AWB, it’s just a case of which of the two had the better last season for me. Both are young players and nothing set in stone. Both have shown the same sort of strengths and weaknesses at PL level. While AWB has a better last season, given Tim is only 21, he’s obviously not ‘finished’.

I cannot see what Wan-Bissaka has over him, other than being the more recent of the two to be in good form.

Thats ok if you cannot see it. I can and plenty of others can too. Seems like the club can also.

 

[Rozay]

I agree. I followed Fosu through the academy and thought for sure he would go on to make it here. I still feel he can, and is better than some of the deadwood we have here. Given a chance I think he could play as a DM but there are a few positions he could fit into.

Tbh, I don’t even know whether he will be a great eight-back or a great player. I think there are similar questions about his offensive contribution as Wan Bissaka, although from his time at United, I think he carries the ball forward better anyway.

What I do think is given a bit of confidence and stability - he can offer the same thing as AWB. That may still leave question marks, but those question marks will be there if we spend £50m on AWB too. But we’d still have a full back who could stand up to the likes of Sané and not get beaten, physically dominate wingers, not get outrun - but not whip in great crosses either. Just for free.

 

[Rozay]

Thats ok if you cannot see it. I can and plenty of others can too. Seems like the club can also.

Well if that’s the argument we’re using then I can’t disagree with that. We’ll just go by what the club does.

 

[Cassidy]

Well if that’s the argument we’re using then I can’t disagree with that. We’ll just go by what the club does.

Not really the argument. But if you really think TFM at Palace got anywhere near the level of performance at RB that AWB did then I think you are mistaken.

 

[Nick7]

If Wan Bissaka started playing LW or CB next season for Crystal Palace, which one would he look comfortable in?

Well he's a right sided player, so he would be more "comfortable" at right back or right wing. Not sure what your point is picking two positions he doesn't play in.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Wonder how much this substantial bid is then?

 

[Adnan]

@Cassidy @Raees

These are all from his season at Palace. People forget very quickly. He’s already got a very good season under his belt at PL. At he and AWB’s age, it is more about the qualities they have, a lot can still change. In terms of qualities, they have shown a similar level. TFM has had to perform under a far tougher set of circumstances, with constantly moving around clubs. AWB’s stock is just up at the minute, but his footballing qualities are not superior.

Fosu Mensah put in a brilliant performance against Leroy Sane playing for Palace and even Sane said TFM was the most difficult opponent he's faced. The Palace fans were very happy with TFM and how things were going until we played them at Selhurst Park and Palace were forced to play AWB who impressed and made the spot his own due to being a Palace player.

He then went to Fulham and things didn't work out. But for anyone to say his loan wasn't in part successful, especially at Palace is kidding themselves.

AWB is a very defensive minded fullback from what I'm being told by regular observers of the player. And I'm also of the opinion that we need to prioritise a fullback that has the nous and ability in the final third to give us that extra dimension in attack.

Signing a top class DM to shield the defence would be better than signing a ultra defensive rightback when we already have a left back that isn't great going forward.

I personally would chance it with 19 year old Max Aarons from the championship over AWB. Because the kid from Norwich has shown fantastic potential going forward from RB and wouldn't cost anywhere close to what Palace are asking for AWB.

 

[Allas8]

Gary Neville didn't learn how to defend until he turned 30? If you'd said 25 then I could have understood as he did make mistakes and play people onside sometimes but by age 27 he was in the top 3 right backs in the world indisputably so...

And Wan Bissaka is definitely not a CB, not sure he's even ever played there so I've no idea what you're talking about.

Also, regards the Fosu Mensah comparison, AWB has excellent positioning for his age whereas Fosu Mensah's is usually atrocious, that's the main difference between them in my view.

I would say Gary Neville could defend already when he was 20, just like Dalot, its just that people did not stop moaning about Garys defensive prowess until he turned 30, maybe I should have made that clearer.

AWB as a CB, so, good players are flexible, and not bound up by a single position. Good players can play in multiple positions, and the better you are, the faster you can adapt to a new position, and a new playing system. At a club like Manchester United, its imperative that our players has this flexibility, to play in multiple position. So with that in mind, atleast I am looking at AWB and trying to figure out where he can play out of position. All our fullbacks need to be able to play as wingers, if not, they are just CB. While CB need to be able to play as DM. There is always exception, but that don't change the fact that I need to see some flexibility from AWB, and to me he looks more like a CB then a RW/LW (all right wingers should be able to play as left wingers).

Im all for TFM, should get game time over Smalling next season if you ask me. What TFM did at Fulham does not matter, only thing that matters is what he do when he comes back to us. And I would not expect anyone to play our talents instead of us, loans are overrated, as any player getting game time on loans could probably get the same game time for us.

 

[SteveW]

I'll be shocked if TFM is still a United player in a years time.

I assume the people who rate him are the people who also rate Bailly. Basically people who think any athlete can be a top level defender. Both are liabilities.

 

[Bestietom]

I'll be shocked if TFM is still a United player in a years time.

I assume the people who rate him are the people who also rate Bailly. Basically people who think any athlete can be a top level defender. Both are liabilities.

That's your opinion mate, and everyone is entitled to theirs.

 

[SteveW]

That's your opinion mate, and everyone is entitled to theirs.

True.

 

[Adnan]

I'll be shocked if TFM is still a United player in a years time.

I assume the people who rate him are the people who also rate Bailly. Basically people who think any athlete can be a top level defender. Both are liabilities.

I'm not sure the Ajax academy coaching staff and Leroy Sane rate Bailly. But they sure rated TFM. I guess people like you would've given up on a 23/24 year old Kalidou Koulibaly aswell before he was coached by Sarri?

 

[Toad]

He kind of reminds me of Zaha going forward.

 

[Sandikan]

When was the last time we loaned a player out for two years and they came back to feature for us regularly?

 

[Robbie Boy]

I would be delighted if we signed him. Superb talent.

 

[SteveW]

I'm not sure the Ajax academy coaching staff and Leroy Sane rate Bailly. But they sure rated TFM. I guess people like you would've given up on a 23/24 year old Kalidou Koulibaly aswell before he was coached by Sarri?

It's been a while since he was in the Ajax academy. He's not developed. Positional sense and decision making is still miles off the required standard. Not saying he cant get better but it seems unlikely that he will suddenly improve enough to be at the level we need.

I've absolutely no idea about Koulibally. I never saw him play before the last couple of seasons. Is there many examples of players suddenly learning to defend after never being able to do it before?

 

[Lash]

When was the last time we loaned a player out for two years and they came back to feature for us regularly?

That doesn’t mean it can’t happen, though.

 

[roonster09]

When was the last time we loaned a player out for two years and they came back to feature for us regularly?

Tuanzebe.


Sorry for the spoiler.

 

[IrishRedDevil]

Why is TFM being discussed in the Wan Bissaka transfer thread?

There is a reason United need a new RB.

 

[RedSky]

The difference is that AWB is significantly better at defending than TFM. Lets ignore last seasons comparisons with TFM playing for Fulham (TFMs stats are terrible) and just compare this seasons AWB with TFM at Palace in 17/18.

Spoiler: Stats

Tackles Per Game:
AWB = 3.7
TFM = 2.0

Interceptions:
AWB = 2.4
TFM = 1.5

Fouls:
AWB = 0.3
TFM = 0.9

Clearances:
AWB = 3.7
TFM = 3.1

So AWB is better statistically than TFM across the board defensively. Offensively they're very similar the only big difference between the two is that AWB dribbles more a game than TFM did and AWB has more unsuccessful touches than TFM on average. AWB would be a good choice for a defensive RB and we could throw on Dalot if we need an attacking boost down the right.

 

[Red00012]

When was the last time we loaned a player out for two years and they came back to feature for us regularly?

J Lingz

 

[acnumber9]

When was the last time we loaned a player out for two years and they came back to feature for us regularly?

Jesse Lingard and Jonny Evans.

 

[The United Irishman]

This is incredibly insane. Has the forum gone mad? this is not a kyle wlaker situation were we know the full exteent of his game. 30-40 million should be the extent we pay. English teams are simply ridiculous charging these absurd prices for maddison fraser and now wan bissaka. I hope we pressure their future players to not sign contracts so they can get taken for a lower rice. This might be the future of football transfers if these mediocre clubs keep listing unrealistic prices.

Perfectly within their rights to do so. Imagine the bigger clubs constantly turning the heads of your best players consigning your club to constant mediocrity!

 

[Acole9]

Comparing Fosu Mensah to Wan Bissaka is just laughable.

 

[Rozay]

I'll be shocked if TFM is still a United player in a years time.

I assume the people who rate him are the people who also rate Bailly. Basically people who think any athlete can be a top level defender. Both are liabilities.

He likely won’t be. I’m not here saying TFM is the answer at RB, I’m saying that I don’t think Wan-Bissaka is, for the same reasons TFM probably isn’t. I’m therefore also saying that if we are so impressed with Wan-Bissaka’s qualities, we should probably consider saving ourselves £50m and giving Tim a go, as I feel he has a similar level of qualities, if not a similar level of fortunes over the last 12 months. That said, people are terribly fickle, (just look at how our fans spoke about Tim in his thread when he was at Palace and how they speak in this very thread)and 2 or 3 good games in our side and we’d be back saying he’s brilliant again. When talking about a pair of 21 year olds, I think the attributes are more important than talking about form, which by nature will be up and down. In terms of attributes, I think when they are both playing well, they are similar. I don’t think Wan-Bissaka will give us something else that the TFM who played for us first season and at Palace would. I don’t think he has anything else to give. Someone like Max Aaron’s does, for example, as watching him you can tell he has other qualities to his game which we need.

Ultimately, I don’t think either are good enough, but for the very same reasons.