Meh, some people just can't warm to Mourinho for some bizarre reason. Can't believe how anyone would back a player ahead of one of the greatest managers in modern football.
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It's a sad place but it's seems to be the case. Jose asks for hard work and commitment. He's not asking Martial to play left back, he's asking him to work hard for the team. If it takes Martial three quarters of the season to realise this that's on him, not Jose.
Jose brought in a striker who has an exemplary record and a style of play that may not have suited Martial. I have no issue with that. But he can't accommodate every player in the team. It's up to Martial to adapt and he's flat out refused to do that, instead he's sulked. We are better than we were last season, that's definitive proof that Jose has improved the team. The tepid ineffective style play from last year may have suited Martial, but it had to go.
Sure but what about the question I asked. What would you need evidence wise to confirm Mourinho has handled this incorrectly?
Martials poor performances have been going through out the whole season. He happens to run more in the first and only game in his position. Just as much as he is a better attacker at the centre than the left- he would be better defensively in the the centre than the left too.
What makes you think this is down to the manager? Why didn't it work before? He has been dropped and subbed plenty times before. He scored goals and he tried harder because he wants that central position now that it is relatively free compared to before. Rashford has significantly got better ever since he started playing upfront.
What you are seeing when players get games in their position is a morale boost not upgrading their mentality.
So he runs more in a position which requires less running because it's his prefered positon and you don't see that as evidence of an attitude/commitment problem?
Wow.
I've already outlined that in the previous posts.
So he plays badly it's down to his poor attitude, he plays well it's down to Jose's man management. Wow.
Not trying to sound racist but it would be quite reminiscent of the trickster Yorke (Martial) and direct Cole (Rashford).
Rooney and Zlatan could be subs like Solskjaer and Teddy! Back to the glory days
Incredible how you read 'plays well' in that post.
Why don't you actually respond to the content of the post. Give me a reason we saw higher workrate and commitment in a position that requires less of it?
Not sure why people want to lock Rashford and Martial down into specific positions. Why not allow for some flexibility? The best modern strikers roam a lot in the forward positions these days. They can drift from wide as much as they can strike from the center. Griezmann is a good example. Simeone recently talked about how it is a bit difficult pinning him down to a position because he can attack from different angles. Same can be said about Henry, Ronaldo, Messi, etc.
This is exactly why I like the way Rashford has been played this season and he attested to it himself when he spoke about the merits of having to play from wide many times. He said his play is now more mature and balanced as a result.
It's clearly down to Jose's man-management. What else could it possibly be?
Aaaaand he can't give a reason. Shock.
Mourinho subbed Martial each and every time for the first few games. Doesn't exactly build rapport with a new manager. Ibra struggled for long periods as well but was played into form. It's not the only reason Martial has struggled but we'll never know the magnitude of the impact.
I just did give a reason.
You agree then. Great!
If he plays badly it's down to Jose's poor man management, he plays well it's down to himself alone (feck you Jose). Wow.
Where? Not in our discussion I don't think you have. It's a simple question that only requires a quick answer. Why the reluctance to answer?
Yeah, because he was crap. That's what subs are for. You suggesting he plays him the full game to spare the feelings of a player who had already reportedly acted like a kid because his number was taken away from him.
You could turn that around though. People here claim Jose is "ruining" him and is "mismanaging him". Thus his bad performances are on Jose. Then, when he performs well, that's evidence that Jose should always play him. So, poor performances are on Jose. Good performances are on Martial and proof he should play.
Because we are going in circles.
Performances which involve commitment. The same level of commitment playing left wing as playing centre forward. Not sulking because someone took your number which you had for 1 season. Not sulking because the manager subbed on a left back as a replacement for an injured left back instead of bringing him on. That sort of thing.
Ahh no you've misunderstood my question. Maybe I didn't explain it well enough.
You asked for evidence that Mourinho's approach hasn't worked. I cited this almost full season of poor football after being our best player last season. You said that's not evidence.
So I'm asking if this season doesn't wash what you would consider proof that Mourinho's mananagemet of Martial this season has been the wrong way to go. What needs to happen for you to decide this tough love approach has failed?
Yeah and as I've already outlined Martial was poor before Mourinho's tough love approach, so how can that poor form, which already existed before the contentious treatment occurred be put down to it?
It would be like saying eating at McDonalds gave me cancer, even though I had cancer before I ever ate at McDonalds.
I'm not debating that here. I'm not sure I can put this question any simpler but here goes:
Your proof that Mourinho's method has worked is a good game against Burnley.
What would need to happen for you to change your mind and decide Mourinho's approach hasn't worked for Martial?
Might be a bit controversial, but any coincendence that his best game co incides with our new striker being sidelined.
He clearly had his nose put out of joint at the start of the season maybe this is the catalyst for him to kick on. Its only one game but maybe he feels like he has a real opportunity now?
He clearly had his nose put out of joint at the start of the season maybe this is the catalyst for him to kick on. Its only one game but maybe he feels like he has a real opportunity now?
I would need to see Martials attitude continue at a level below what is expected for a Mourinho team.
Possibly. His lacklustre performances certainly aren't down to a lack of ability. He's demonstrated what an excellent player he is. Let's hope we don't have to pander to his every whim in order for him to give 100% though.
Well then isn't that what's been happening all season?
I'm fairly new on here and must say i'm suprised by all the negativity around the manager and team. I wasnt Ibras biggest fan but he has done well. Martial has bags of potential but does look like he needs micro managing. Which Mourinho has been doing whether his influence has sparked Martial or whether its a loss of Ibra that has can be debated but we'll never know. I would hazard a guess on the latter. We have been decent most of the season some players have had a poor season but i'm positive about next few years. I think we looked good last few games Ibras not played in and i'm very optimistic that Martial will kick on and am looking forward to seeing him and Rashford play up front. Looks like it would be fluid, interchangeable and most importantly exciting to watch and more goals. Thats all that has really ley us down this year.
I can only speak for myself but any criticism of the Martial, Shaw and Mkhi situation doesn't apply to the rest of Mourinho's time here so far. Generally I think he's doing well and I'm fairly confident he'll get us back to the top.
Negativity about one aspect doesn't equal negativity as a whole.
Just be thankful you weren't here for Moyesey
No one said it would be a short process. He's just taken a heck of a lot longer than the rest of the team to conform.
So how much longer would the below Mourinho standard performances have to continue before you decide the tough love approach hasn't worked?
I mean there has to be a time limit on this. We can't just say that if Martial at anytime in the future starts playing well it's down to Jose.
Martial is a terrific talent and should be afforded more time than other players.
But as I've said, it's more to do with his poor attitude than his performances. If he was willing to work as hard as Lingard Rashford etc then he would have been given game time to find his form.
Mourinho is a great manager but not perfect as we saw with KDB and to some extent Miktaryan and Martial. That's why Fergie treated every player a little differently as he got older. Some players are a little sensitive and require a combination of tough love and arm around the shoulder. As arjen Robben said...with Mourinho you have to be mentally strong to deal with him.
That kind of leaves it very open ended. Essentially if at some point he plays consistently well you can put it down to Mourinho.
He's extremely talented and with age will mature. So it's highly likely he will become a top player at some point, whoever is in charge.
People also have to stop confusing directing criticisms toward one aspect of a managers approach with his players which might be justified or not with him being hated and disliked.
There might be those who simply dislike Mourinho and can't warm up to him, there are definitely those who can't wait to jump in and criticise him as soon as any sign of failing occurs(poor results etc) but not everyone directing some criticisms towards Mourinho are some sort of agenda driven "haters".
Unlike some I don't go about thinking Mou or anyone is infallible or faultless. I quite like how things are unfolding with Mou so far despite bumps on the road but there are certain aspects of Mou which I'm critical about and that doesn't make me any sort of "hater".
This season I simply haven't liked the way Mou has handled some of his players and I'm certainly not a fan of constant public criticisms and unnecessarily drawing negative attention to our squad with little jabs in the media toward his own players. This has been a no go for me and no matter how much I try to rationalise it, it still just doesn't sit well with me.
I've been vocal about this since this started with Miki followed by Shaw(as well as Smalling getting thrown to the wolves by Mou comments). His handling of certain players is something I just can't warm up to.
In fact this season some players have suddenly become scapegoats and been on the end of some harsh crisisms on these boards because of some wierd comment made by Mourinho. Players who last year everyone were waxing lyricals over and people were hopeful of have suddenly become these scapegoats and hated among fans or at least on these boards(Shaw, Smalling, Martial) because Mou ran his mouth and fed the media some negative things to run with. Then people rationalise that with so call necessary tough love, getting rid of softies etc. The same people who had and would have vilified Mou had all those things occurred at Chelsea or any other club.
There might be those who simply dislike Mourinho and can't warm up to him, there are definitely those who can't wait to jump in and criticise him as soon as any sign of failing occurs(poor results etc) but not everyone directing some criticisms towards Mourinho are some sort of agenda driven "haters".
Unlike some I don't go about thinking Mou or anyone is infallible or faultless. I quite like how things are unfolding with Mou so far despite bumps on the road but there are certain aspects of Mou which I'm critical about and that doesn't make me any sort of "hater".
This season I simply haven't liked the way Mou has handled some of his players and I'm certainly not a fan of constant public criticisms and unnecessarily drawing negative attention to our squad with little jabs in the media toward his own players. This has been a no go for me and no matter how much I try to rationalise it, it still just doesn't sit well with me.
I've been vocal about this since this started with Miki followed by Shaw(as well as Smalling getting thrown to the wolves by Mou comments). His handling of certain players is something I just can't warm up to.
In fact this season some players have suddenly become scapegoats and been on the end of some harsh crisisms on these boards because of some wierd comment made by Mourinho. Players who last year everyone were waxing lyricals over and people were hopeful of have suddenly become these scapegoats and hated among fans or at least on these boards(Shaw, Smalling, Martial) because Mou ran his mouth and fed the media some negative things to run with. Then people rationalise that with so call necessary tough love, getting rid of softies etc. The same people who had and would have vilified Mou had all those things occurred at Chelsea or any other club.
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You keep going back to performance. Why?
As I keep saying the main issue is with his attitude and commitment, once that is sorted the game time and form will follow. It was visibly at a higher level than any other point this season, which is exactly what Jose alluded to also. Lo and behold when Martial knuckles down everyone is happy with his performance.
Jose is a manager that requires commitment and for players to sacrifice for the greater good. He isn't going to get game time until his does this. Jose has shown he can forgive bad form and give opportunities to gain it back of attitude is still right.
Because that's how you judge a player.
There's definitely an element of well, Mourinho has implied it so it must be true on here right now. Whether it be Mkhitaryan, Shaw, Martial, now both Smalling and Jones. Jones, in particular, has never had a bad word said about him by any manager he's worked under. Infact, when fit, they've often done their best to get him straight back into the team.
Yet Mourinho makes yet another needless remark about fitness and all of a sudden there's suggestions on this forum that they're both softies. Uncommitted and stealing a living for too long, or something.
I can't subscribe to Martial being actively lazy or uncommitted. He clearly ran more on Sunday, but how much of that is to do with the position he was played? No doubt Mourinho knows how to motivate squads; he's made a career by doing so. But every insinuation that is made isn't necessarily as sinister as conveyed, and some (even his biggest supporters) would do well to remember that.
Yet Mourinho makes yet another needless remark about fitness and all of a sudden there's suggestions on this forum that they're both softies. Uncommitted and stealing a living for too long, or something.
I can't subscribe to Martial being actively lazy or uncommitted. He clearly ran more on Sunday, but how much of that is to do with the position he was played? No doubt Mourinho knows how to motivate squads; he's made a career by doing so. But every insinuation that is made isn't necessarily as sinister as conveyed, and some (even his biggest supporters) would do well to remember that.
Which haven't been good? Therefore he hasn't been playing?
You've complained about him not being played into form like other players and I've said it's because his attitude isn't at the same level other players.
It's not down to "one good performance" as you are constantly alluding to, it's about his change in attitude in that one game. As I said in the very post you just responded to, if the attitude is right, he gets the trust of the manager, he gets praise, he gets games. It's not a complicated process I'm outlining here.
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