Arnautovic was twice the player on a team that completely outplayed us? You don't say?
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I think I will continue thanks - I will defend all players that play bad when the team play bad. When the team play well and a player plays bad - thats when we can highlight players for their shortcomings.
Who the eff doesnts play a CAM or a false 9 in between 2 strikers to allow some sort of flow of football from midfield to forwards. Utter rubbish tactics.
Look at Hazard. He's been playing under defensive manager since his move to Chelsea and still able to shine under every single one of them. If you're good you'll standout in any system in any team.
Martial's an over-rated player who never delivers a thing when he starts. He's at his best as an impact sub in the last 20mins and even then, he's inconsistent.
He was absolutely awful again today.
He was absolutely awful again today.
It'd be one thing if he was the sole underperforming player, but right now there isn't a single player that is performing at anywhere close to their best. That's likely to continue as long as Mou is still there.
Get him out and reevaluate the squad under Zidane.
It'd be another thing if the post you responded to had any truth to it as well.
That's rich from somebody who uses the word 'fanboy'. At least Martial gets in the opposition box despite Mourinho's inability to build up a team capable of it through passing and movement.
The same Hazard who once publicly bitched about Mourinho's tactics holding him back and the same one who played like a zombie to get Mourinho fired in his last spell at Chelsea? Tell us how much he shined in that season.
Yes the Same Hazard who won the the PFA player of the year under our Manager.
I guess Martial has been afforded the same starting berth status that Hazard has enjoyed at Chelsea since he signed
Like Martial gonna turn into Hazard if he starts consistently. He was playing two and seasons in the position before Alexis came in and couldn't make it his own.
It's not even that - Martial does not need to be rated like Hazard to be a useful player for Manchester United. Hazard is being put in the same bracket as Ronaldo & Messi - not every player is capable of playing like that.
I doubt anyone is expecting Martial to ever do that - however....
You look at how average some players are and how they have improved under managers - there is no doubt that Martial can do better. I see almost no differences between Martial & Sterling - one has gone up significantly in ability & form due to the tactics that Pep has utilised to get the best out of him whilst ours is in the back sheets of Jose's tactical book. Like Sterling would be good on the left wing for us holding the touchline having to beat two players who are following him only to be told to cross the ball to a big tank like Lukaku. Sterling would struggle if the ball is not played on the floor; much like Martial is. I also think Martial and Rashford can be as good as gabriel Jesus - see almost no difference between the lads there. They would be useful players for a club that had tactics to play football well; because they play football well. Not everyone has to be Hazard :/
He did well under the manager who bought him. Mourinho has never had the same amount of faith in him and don't even pretend its the case. Same with Rashford
Right. Mourinho had no obligation to do him any favor. He gave him good share of chances though and was average to decent at best. It in his best of interests to do what the manager likes, not the other way around.
His comments today sound like he was doing Martial a favour.
You need glasses if you can spot no difference between Martial and Sterling. Sterling is quite agile and makes hell lot of runs more than Martial whos quite static and would like ball at his feet. I highly doubt if Martial would last a day in Pep's training sessions. The boy is too lazy. While good tactics may make even James Milner do better, Martial should be showing far more than what he is showing right now.
And this is where Jose failed - Didn't matter what the players were - they played the Jose way rather than Jose adapting his tactics to suit his players. We have Martial,rashford, mata, lingard playing as wingers, lukaku as target man, Pogba at CDM for 1 and a half seasons etc etc.
That's where Pep and Klopp are doing much better than us even though one started off with a worse squad than us - they made players play in positions that get the best out of them.
Simple question for you to answer - Would Firminho ever play as a false 9 under Jose?
That's a straight no - Jose has historically used target men and a player like Firminho would struggle under him. That's what differentiates those managers to Jose - they would be able to look at Martial and play him in the best position for him & his defensive games would also improve because of it.
Sterling pre-guardiola was same level as Martial for me. If it wasnt for you then fine - so be it.
City play pep's brand of football, so does pool play klopp's football. The players are suppose to play according to the Manager and not other way around. Where Jose has failed is to bring in and ship out personnel who does or doesn't buy into his methods. He has won everything there is to prove that his methods do work if he has the right personnel.
What's your obsession with False 9? Each manager has their own way of playing. Say if our next manager wouldn't play a false 9 would you deem him as instant failure? A manager should not be judged based on whether he would use a false9 or not.
Sterling's stock has been rising year after year long before pep came in. Though his finishing may be questionable , he puts in 150% of effort. Martial has stagnated since his first season and all that couldn't be blamed only on tactics.
No - Pep has now used 3 different formations at 3 different clubs. Klopp has used now 2 for different clubs and groups of players. Jose has used one throughout his career at every club except one random season at Inter.
That to me shows that Pep & Klopp has a style of football he wants to implement ( possession for Pep & High pressure/tenacity football for Klopp_ - however they do this by looking at the players they have and are willing to change the formation in anyway to get the team to play that style of football the best.
Jose has no style of football he wants to implement, just a formation and a defensive tactics - my obsession with a false 9 is not due to the fact that the next manager uses it - it just shows that its a manager looking at a player and recognising that he isn't a traditional striker and better suited to a role that enables wingers to play like forwards. What happens with Jose? Strikers made to play like wingers and one striker made to play as a target man when he himself can't do it.
All managers may implement a style of football they want to play on the club - but not every manager looks at the players they have and adapt their tactics to get the best use out of them. That is all that needs to be done for Martial - if that happens and he fails; he can sod off. I'm not making permanent mind up about players under Jose - not Martial, not Rashford, not even Lukaku who i dont rate that much; because a manager needs to look at the players and get the best use out of them. Not just try to turn United in to Chelsea 3.0 and have some fans laughing at the fact that Martial is no Hazard.
Jose has used multiple formations here at United. 4231 initially and more of a 433 and also 3 at the back in certain games. So the fact that you're claiming he's used only 1 formation is baseless. I don't want to keep defending Jose since i want him out but i'll repeat that the reason it has not worked for him is due to our highly imbalanced squad with 0 wingers and no prominent striker at the helm. Maybe he thought he's getting a Diego Costa in Lukaku i don't know. Maybe his wish for wingers was denied by Ed, i dont know. Ours was not a ideal Mourinho squad , not even close. Anyway it's Martial thread and we're too off topic .
So now Martial doesn't need to know how to cross?Yes because Martial has always been a crosser
Rashford & Martial need to play upfront as forwards - forget about crossing; play balls on the floor - not crossing to a lump like Lukaku.
Let Sanchez play behind them as a false 9. Let them all rotate and bring Lukaku on when we need an extra man upfront.
Play them as forwards- if Martial fails as a forward in a team that enables forwards to play together then sell him. I see no use in giving him that much negativity when he is made to play in positions and do things that get the best out of no one.
Him playing on the left wing and Lukaku playing in the centre like Drogba's cousin is not good for him nor martial, nor the CM or AM that plays there. There is a lack of cohesion because Jose has never cared about that - for that reason having a go at individual players is wrong under a manager who has them all playing as individuals.
Next manager & we can have a go at everybody.
I think you have mentioned your "system" like a thousand times around the forum. Every thread I read, it pops up.
Unfortunately, that won't stop the likes of Martial and Rashford stinking up the place.
Exactly. I've never seen so many excuses being made for any player as they are for Martial.
I actually thought he was good today. The only attacking player that looked to do something with the ball.
I see the points he's criticized for and I myself have things to say about him, but since Young Boys game and all his cameos are good.
Much like Pogba the next manager, especially if it's Zidane, will be the last chance for them to prove their worth to the team though.
I see the points he's criticized for and I myself have things to say about him, but since Young Boys game and all his cameos are good.
Much like Pogba the next manager, especially if it's Zidane, will be the last chance for them to prove their worth to the team though.
It is Eden Hazard buddy. Eden fecking Hazard.
I'm sure he's getting shit on left and right in here, don't care, he was played in a system today that we haven't been using and was in a striker role with one creative player in the 8 outfield players behind him, fecking Hazard, Salah and all the other PL attacking darlings would struggle in that set up today.
Yes, he's signed Sanchez who's now the club's highest paid player and is not even doing any better than Martial was before he came here. Bravo Mourinho! His judgement is impeccable.
He’s honestly useless.
That headed chance was pathetic. I love how everyone was stating Jose for not playing him and yet when he does play, he offers nothing. At least Sanchez isn’t lazy.
He’s the biggest myth player going.
That headed chance was pathetic. I love how everyone was stating Jose for not playing him and yet when he does play, he offers nothing. At least Sanchez isn’t lazy.
He’s the biggest myth player going.
What will his fans say when he inevitably gets benched by the next manager as well? How long before they turn on the manager?
The guy just doesn't have much about his game to help move on a club of Utd's size, the odd, rare successful shoulder drop or dribble aside. Stand out in Ligue 1 doesn't always translate. We'd have been much materially better off with a more mistake prone but free spirited attacker like Son, a canny buy who was actually second choice behind Berahino.
Where were all those guys criticizing him now the last few games where he was one of the few bright spots? @ me when the rest of the team is playing well and Martial is the one bringing them down. Until that happens, Martial is far from the biggest problem on this squad and is one of the two players this team has capable of doing something out of nothing, which is basically one of the few ways that this team will get something out of a game since they're tactically unable to consistently work the ball into dangerous positions and goal opportunities.
The over-the-top criticism is always by the usual suspects who are never to be found when his performances are positive, which is an accomplishment on its own when the team as a whole is so awful.
Is Martial capable of becoming a great player, I think so but it's also very likely he winds up being a flop over the course of his career, the jury is still out because this team as a whole is impossible to judge under Mourinho given players all look like a shell of themselves with him at the helm.
The over-the-top criticism is always by the usual suspects who are never to be found when his performances are positive, which is an accomplishment on its own when the team as a whole is so awful.
It translated pretty well his first season and last season from September to January. He had a better season in his first time in England than he ever did in Ligue 1. You won't get anybody to be free-spirited, willing to take a lot of chances, with Mourinho, because that's how Martial was until Mourinho came along and a coach like him is not someone who boosts player's confidence and every risk you take has a chance to hear your coach tearing you a new one to the media.
Is Martial capable of becoming a great player, I think so but it's also very likely he winds up being a flop over the course of his career, the jury is still out because this team as a whole is impossible to judge under Mourinho given players all look like a shell of themselves with him at the helm.
Excellent assessment. Beyond the toxic 'feck you Martial is great, no feck you he sux' back and forth element, this is the most frightening aspect of his game. His movement when we have the ball really is horrendously poor for a player with his responsibility and status within, not only this team but the fans eyes.
I haven't seen it improve and for a guy who I want to see do well, yikes. Work on your game son. Also noticed after about 50 minutes he had dribbled a couple of times and worked a little bit off the ball he looked absolutely cooked physically. He just can't be trusted to play a proper role beyond standing up in the corner and having the ball blongoed out to him and him getting it and running off up the field in the hope that he beats some players and makes something happen. Yeah I get it, I want to see that. But you can get away with one player who doesn't fit the scheme properly in Pogba, not really sure if you can get away with the cascade of then piling Martial on top of that as well.
He's a weird player man, want to see him do well. But it is just a weird phenomenon.
Just don't see it. Great players transcend all the nonsense of temporary club and manager situations and stand out for what they are. We've seen nothing on a genuinely long term consistent basis to suggest Martial is that, and I'd also add that what he does well he doesn't do 'great player' well, either.
What a difference between this Martial and the one from 15/16...
It would help if he actually played games on a consistent basis.
From his point of view -apart from lifelong financial security- moving to Utd hasn't been all he thought it would be.
He was pretty good today and the last game when he was on the ball - but watching the match in person today it struck me just how bad his movement is - it's genuinely shocking. He was playing right in front of me the whole match and I can't recall once he broke out into full stride or made a forward positive run. It was really jarring - a couple of times we broke forward and Martial was gingerly jogging in midfield - no desire to join the attack. The worst I've already mentioned - around the 70th minute mark Zabaleta got forward to attack, lost the ball, Martial was a good 20 yards in front of him on the half way line with the whole left side free - he didn't even bother making a run. Pogba had the ball to - for France Griezman, Giroud and Mbappe would be spritning forward the second that happened.
Add to that his one skill essentially seems to be to receive the ball in the final third, drop the shoulder and try to cut inside the full back. It's good when it works - but it doesn't always for him and it's very one dimensional.
I don't know, dribbling wise he's better than all our other wide forwards. But Rashford and Lingard have better movement and finishing, Mata has better passing. All our wide players are decent at something, but none of them are really great. Being able to dribble well occasionaly makes you a Robinho, it doesn't make you into a Ronaldo, hell it doesn't even make you into players like Mane and Sterling who are a good 3-4 steps up above him.
Honestly, us fans aren't saying he's the best thing ever. All we want to see is him get a run of games to get into form (something the likes of Mata,Lukaku,Zlatan,Alexis have been afforded despite all going through awful patches of form themselves) and, if after said run of games he still isn't playing up to the required standard, then I don't think anyone of us would have an issue in him being benched.
I mean, I think the most amount of games he's played in a row under José is 4, and that only happened once. I think he did really well in those games, too, if I remember correctly. We just want to see if he can replicate his best form for us with a run in the team (like it looked like he was doing before signing Alexis) and if after said run he doesn't then I personally would have no issue with him being benched.
The same Hazard that played his worse season at Chelsea under Mourinho? We have plenty of good players, none of whom standout in this system we play under Mourniho. Or lack of a system, honestly. Everyone looks as bad as eachother and these are good player we're talking about. Yeah, our squad is far from great but they're still good enough to be better than what's on show.
BTW Hazard won his only Player of the year under Mourinho. I'm all for sacking Mourinho but lets not rewrite history.
Sorry, wasn't trying to rewrite history. I know he had an excellent season under José as well as his poor one, but I'm just saying even Hazard ended up struggling under him eventually. In my opinion, no matter how good you are, you still need to be playing in a team that knows what they're doing, which it doesn't seem like we do at the moment.
Nothing, if the attack improves but Martial doesn't. You should be aware we all want what's best for the club.
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