9
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 36
- Goals
- 7
- Assists
- 5
- Yellow cards
- 1
- Red cards
- 1
- Status
I'm quite 50/50 on Martial these days.
I feel like it's time we go and get another starting striker and say Martial- you are number 2, if you are not happy about it then f*ck off.
I say that because I feel he is good enough for a circulating squad role but not good enough for a guaranteed number in the starting 11 as we see him today.
He is useful at what he does ie his creativity but we also needs some more bang right simplicity of a no nonsense putting the ball in to the net type of striker with Bruno's creativity being our mainstay factor playing behind a striker.
I feel like that's when the 'love/hate' for Martial will be a bit more levalised- where he is playing at a solid expected level, coming off the United bench to mess teams up in the 2nd halves rather than struggling for the whole 90th minute when he starts once every 3 games on average.
I feel like it's time we go and get another starting striker and say Martial- you are number 2, if you are not happy about it then f*ck off.
I say that because I feel he is good enough for a circulating squad role but not good enough for a guaranteed number in the starting 11 as we see him today.
He is useful at what he does ie his creativity but we also needs some more bang right simplicity of a no nonsense putting the ball in to the net type of striker with Bruno's creativity being our mainstay factor playing behind a striker.
I feel like that's when the 'love/hate' for Martial will be a bit more levalised- where he is playing at a solid expected level, coming off the United bench to mess teams up in the 2nd halves rather than struggling for the whole 90th minute when he starts once every 3 games on average.
I cannot believe it. I'm actually in shock. I don't even know what to say. Is this really your opinion Bebestation or are you getting caught up in the moment?
Its not that I disagree, its just I cannot believe you are posting this.
I value him as a false 9 player and I disagree with people that want him sold because I think players who play False 9 is a little hard to find than meets the eye.
However, it's time we get that traditional striker - Ole uses 4231 predominantly, get that tap in merchant who can utelise the formation, the tactics and the players around him.
Use Martial as our Alternative strategy for when we want to play like we do right now (which wont be all the time, but sometimes).
I'm fairly 'meh' on Martial, but I do feel he's not good enough to lead the line for a team that wants to win trophies consistently.
I'm happy for him to be back up if we had someone better but I'd also wouldn't mind if he was sold, while he still retains something resembling good value, and we reinvested the funds. I think the longer we keep him and the longer he plays like this, we'll be lucky to get £20m for him in a couple of seasons.
There’s going to be some incredibly silly looking posters in here as the season progresses I reckon.
I don't think you can compare what Martial offers when not scoring as opposed to Firmino.
Also, Rashford and Greenwood aren't as consistent as Mane and Salah. Cavani should start in my opinion, and we should be looking for a replacement in his mould.
I agree. its about having options. Not one player who has "secured his long term future as United no.9" or whatever the thread says.
He does offer something different so should be around as an option at 9 and LWF.
When? When he hits his normal 5-6 game purple patch and is declared WC again only to dissappear for another month or 2? Martial is his own worst enemy.
This was what I was saying.
I'm not protecting Martial and blaming Rashford and Greenwood but more looking at the front 3 and seeing what's up.
The 4231 cant play a false 9 as good as a 433 in my opinion, the inverted forwards are able to get more central in the latter whilst in the 4231 we see Greenwood particularly struggling to ever find himself in the box in comparison to the touchline most of the game.
Then you compare Martial he is the one playing deep still.
The 4231 is very similar to the 433 but it has flaws in my opinion especially when trying to play false 9's and inverted forwards.
He was pretty much our player of the season last year and played well for pretty much 3/4 of the season. He’s been really poor at the start of this campaign but has been so much better the last few games. I think he’s beginning to get back into his normal form and he’s usually a class player, who for some reason gets nowhere near enough support from fans.
The question is what is his normal form? I agree he was one of our best players last year but that doesn't mean a lot if he regresses the following season. Martials highs are very high but his lows are also very low which just isn't good enough for a club like United. We need a player that will give us a 7 or 8 every week instead of someone like Martial who may give 9s but then has a run of 4s. He's been with us 5 years now and we still don't know what Martial is going to walk out unto the pitch.
I think if you are saying this for Martial you might as well bin off 2/3 of the team including Rashford who has an even lower bottom level compared to Martial. The reality is our team performances are inconsistent still, which you’d expect from a young team. As a striker in this side that’s a tough ask as you are still dependant on supply. I just don’t see Martial as a problem, In fact I’m still of the opinion that he’s our best overall attacker and the most fundamental to our game. He’s just had a really poor start to the season which can literally happen to anyone. The important thing from here will he how he responds, based on what I’ve seen in the most recent run of games it looks to be positive.
I think in the 433, for example if Martial drops deeper usually you'd see the two no. 8's going ahead of the ball to occupy the centre backs, while the inside forwards make those inverted runs. In a 433 set up, those runners off the ball would be Bruno and Pogba probably, and it could arguably be effective.
In the 4231, Martial is dropping deep into space that Bruno already occupies, and often nobody is making runs centrally in behind, because we have two holding midfielders. Against Leeds, we saw the potential with McTominay breaking the line, but that was down to Leeds moreso than how we play.
Look at how Liverpool like to play when everyone is fit. Salah and Mane make those out to in runs. When Firmino drops, Henderson or Fabinho sit (whichever is playing) while Keita and Wijnaldum go ahead of the ball. You need runners in behind to create space for the forward dropping deep, and also so those inverted runs are effective, otherwise the centre backs are just going to go with Salah or Mane coming infield.
In short, as you've said, if we play with two holding midfielders, then we need a CF who will also threaten in behind. It's essential to a functioning 4231, otherwise you end up with your 4 attackers square outside the 18 yard box facing the entire defence (something we see too often).
Bruno does brilliant to get in behind when Martial drops deeper, and his numbers back up his willingness to occupy that CF role when Martial comes short. But we also need that threat in behind from our striker. We can't rely on Bruno and Rashford to deliver all of the time.
Don’t know what have happened with Martial. He is very predictable and his touch and finishing is gone.
He haven’t been himself, especially after Cavani arrived, like he preferred being the undisputed nr.9. Perhaps his self-perception was knocked down when he started to measure forces against Cavani?
Martial has some great skills, but also several limitations. Anyway I’ve started to ask myself if he has the required mental skills to be our nr.1 target man. My answer today is no.
Martial could have been a great squad player and have great impact from the bench. Unfortunately I’m afraid his world will fall apart if he is downgraded.
I don’t mind if we sell Martial and rotate between Cavani and Greenwood while waiting for another nr.9.
He haven’t been himself, especially after Cavani arrived, like he preferred being the undisputed nr.9. Perhaps his self-perception was knocked down when he started to measure forces against Cavani?
Martial has some great skills, but also several limitations. Anyway I’ve started to ask myself if he has the required mental skills to be our nr.1 target man. My answer today is no.
Martial could have been a great squad player and have great impact from the bench. Unfortunately I’m afraid his world will fall apart if he is downgraded.
I don’t mind if we sell Martial and rotate between Cavani and Greenwood while waiting for another nr.9.
Excellent, another arm chair psychologist enters the fray. His confidence in front of goal is a bit shot but there's no need to hand out your cliched diagnosis which has only been repeated in this thread ad infinitum.
He needs another affair to right the ship.
He's had a poor start for almost every single season in his career with us.
His main issue is his consistency and unless he improves vastly on it, he's not going to survive long if we actually want to win trophies and challenge for the league.
When did I hand out a diagnosis?
Great mental skills = stabilty. Bad mental skills = instability.
You sound like a armchair warrior just waiting for opportunities to misunderstand and reply irrelevant and negative comments.
Seems like a massive oversimplification and demonstrably incorrect but do go on.
In basic it’s not an oversimplification. You should taste the words and reflect a bit more before you say that something is wrong. If you need som enlightenment I recommend you to read about sport psychology instead of clinical psychology.
Why does Martial from time to time look like an average player, when he earlier has proved to be on a totally different level. How come Martial’s performances go up and down like a jojo? Does he suddenly lose or gain physical or technical skills? Theses skills are pretty static in a short term perspective, but off course injuries and training-basis (pre season) can play a role.
To explain Martial’s very inconsistent play we have to highlight the importance of mental skills; how players cope and respond to stress and challenging situations and self-confidence. Players who perform constantly on a high level are obviously blessed with great mental skills.
Other players’ performances are more affected by externalities and off course performances variate to a greater extent.
What exactly puts Martial out of countenance is off course difficult to say. Everyone see he now and then lacks self-confidence, and the red card against Tottenham also showed he was easy to get out of balance. I don’t even bother start talking about his body language.
I also questioned if Martial has responded negative on the competition from Cavani (read: cope with being challenged). I think it’s an interesting question, because I remember how he responded when Zlatan arrived and “stole” his shirt nr.9.
But given that every player not named Messi or Ronaldo go through streaks of poor form, would you say every player is mentally weak? Like I said, his confidence is low but he's shown plenty of fight and determination at our club so far and I think it's more than a little disrespectful to accuse him of being weak mentally. Barring this season, he's always loved scoring in big games, he's fought his way back into the starting 11 on multiple occasions and he outlasted a manager that was actively trying to bin him. Funnily enough, he's been called weak mentally for years, each time, coming back and making people look stupid, largely because people like your good self know the square root of feck all.
Sorry for raising questions
Thought thiswas the right place to discuss constructively.
I’ve only asked if Martial is good or consistent enough to be our main striker. Off course mental skills also is part of this package or discussion.
I have neither given him a diagnosis or called him mentally weak. Don’t attribute me meanings I don’t have!
I don’t want this forum to be a playground for someone’s aggression and assertion. So behave and discuss in a decent manner (ref.largely because people like your good self know the square root of feck all).
Okay, so your notion is that he's lacking the mental skills required to be successful at this club and I've clearly mixed that up with you saying he has a weak mentality. My apologies.Sorry for raising questions
was the right place to discuss constructively.
I’ve only asked if Martial is good or consistent enough to be our main striker. Off course mental skills also is part of this package or discussion.
I have neither given him a diagnosis or called him mentally weak. Don’t attribute me meanings I don’t have!
I don’t want this forum to be a playground for someone’s aggression and assertion. So behave and discuss in a decent manner (ref.largely because people like your good self know the square root of feck all).
One of the few things that most people (I think) will agree with on this forum is that Ole has been good at rooting out the players who aren't good enough and don't have the correct mentality and replacing them with players that do. I think most also agree that Ole has been good at instilling a good mentality to our squad which will hopefully end up being a winning one. So my questions to you are, why is Martial still trusted by Ole above Cavani, Greenwood and even Rashford as our CF? Why has he sold a proven, "proper" number 9 in Lukaku to make Martial our striker?
I would argue that it's because Ole knows what Martial brings to the team, he knows he has a good mentality and the reason he's sticking with him is because he knows he'll bounce back. The sooner you accept that every athlete goes through periods of bad form, the better.
Not familiar with it but I think basically he's highly rated on a model rating players based on the impact on their team results.Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Stacks up with what I see, we're better with him than without.
Jaysus, the state of his Twitter feed.
I'm not sure how to read that graph at all. Can anyone explain what's going on there?
Not particularly but this explains a bit http://www.goalimpact.com/blog//p/b...t measures the extent that,has a value of 100.
"Goalimpact measures the extent that a player contributes to the goal difference per minute of a team. If a player has a high GI value, then his team has a good goal difference when he plays compared to matches where he doesn’t play. An average player in my database has a value of 100. The best player in the world approximately 190.
The system uses an entirely different approach compared to most other player rating systems, as it does not record single player actions and try to value them. Instead, it just rates the player by the outcome and is unaffected by how the result was achieved. For the more mathematical oriented readers; Goalimpact is a kind of Shapley Value for team sports."
In essence, Man Utd do better when Martial plays. Doesn't matter how, or if he contributes directly, just when he is on the pitch, we do better.
I'm not sure that model holds up to the assertions at all. It's just a model of performances whilst X player is on the pitch vs when they're not. So for instance Martial getting a red card vs Spurs and us then conceding 4 more goals would work in his favour?
I think it also speaks to our lack of depth up front more than Martials performances.
Pretty interesting, I'd be keen to see the same types of graphs in comparison to our other players to see if it lines up with my opinions on them.
I get that impression anyway, whenever Martial doesn't play, we struggle to get out of our own half.
Same. The moment he came off against Leicester, we began to invite more pressure.
I agree. No coincidence he was missing for the Chelsea and Arsenal games when we looked toothless. Also missed the crucial Leipzig game.
he's been playing well lately.
If United with their game in hand it shows the squad is as good as any other over half a season...and with that you have to admit the defence, midfield and attack are one of the best in the league.
Martial's numbers at the end of the season will be comparable to a lot of other strikers. He is not on penalty duty and has missed 3 games due to that daft red card. He is having a dry patch for sure but its temporary...he will be back.
Martial's numbers at the end of the season will be comparable to a lot of other strikers. He is not on penalty duty and has missed 3 games due to that daft red card. He is having a dry patch for sure but its temporary...he will be back.
He's got 1 in 10 this season. If as you say his numbers will be comparable to other strikers in the league at the end of the season, he's got a bloody long way to go!
Thanks for the reply.
I agree with you. Ole is doing great job regarding mentality. He demands “good mentality” and he has raised the standard.
I don’t thinks it’s anything wrong with Martial’s mentality. He is loyal and is doing his best. When Martial is good, he is fantastic. I just want Martial to be consistent, and I just question why he isn’t. At the same time I ask if Martial’s inconsistency mostly is about self-confidence and “something” he’s struggling with mentally. I ask this question because this is the second time I observe his performance drop when a “star” competitor arrive (Zlatan, Canvani). Does he feel certain pressure which he struggles to cope with (hypothesis)?
Ole believes in Martial and probably thinks he can help Martial sort things out so he can perform consistently on a high level. Does Ole a) knows what Martial brings to the team or b)what he potentially can bring to the team? I’m not sure.
I think Ole and every United supporter want Martial to take the next step and perform consistently; being our undisputed nr. 9 and perhaps a future legend.
I’m just curious how long we should wait and how patient we should be.
Some of us perhaps think his performance in the United-shirt so fare has been good enough. Maybe that’s what the disagreement is all about? I think he have to take another step in order to be at the same level as Rooney, Persie and Nistelrooy.
Last edited:
Play Cavani until he plays poorly. Martial hasn't been cutting it lately.
It's hard to pin down why any player goes through poor form. Some times it's related to off the pitch issues, sometimes fatigue, some times niggley injuries. I'm going to put this particular spell down to a loss of confidence in front of goal. The fact of the matter is that we're not even a season and a half into him being a centre forward and he's going through his first proper goal drought, not only as a striker but as a United player, I don't see any possibility of him not returning to form.
What's good about Martial is that he helps us even when he's not scoring. He is still vital to our attacking play because he's the only player we have that can reliably hold up the ball and link up our front line.
I certainly agree there is still lots more work for him to do to become a player in the same regard as RVP or Rooney but they both had long barren spells themselves. It seems that the concept of form has gone out the window over the last few years when in reality players are still as streaky as ever. To become a better player, he has to work on his consistency for sure but his dry spell is being overblown massively.
- Status