Antisemitism & Islamophobia

[The Corinthian]

They are

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Yes that’s shameful. I’ve seen a few people being kicked out for supporting Palestine but not for any Israel flags etc.

My mum works in a charity shop as a volunteer and they have a Save the Children campaign for children in Gaza. A Jewish woman came in the other day with her 4 kids and asked her and the other volunteer working to take down the campaign (‘the campaign is literally just a QR code to donate and some of the charity leaflets in a shop window).

When they refused the kids started giving them abuse and the woman said she’ll ring the police (???). A bizarre incident but shows how difficult this is going to get in the coming weeks if things stay the same.

 

[Superden]

You complain about anti semitism when people say from the river to the sea, @gfactor86, but have no problem removing the Palestinian population from Gaza.

 

[Andy_Cole]

Not sure where to post this.

So the 2 lads next to me brought in a Palestine flag to the game today. Waived it for a few mins at half time. They got kicked out. It says on the united website you’re allowed to bring flags in.

Another incident. A friend of mine got exec seats. He was wearing Palestine colours (a hoodie). Initially refused entry before a senior said it was fine. The person who refused threatened to quit if he was allowed entry. Fortunately he was allowed. Good luck to her with her new job.

Not sure if this would be anti-semitism but could we use this as a Glazer protest? Pretty sure I've read in the past they do give money to Israel (happy to be corrected).

What if United fans brought in Palestine flags in HUGE numbers - all with Glazers out written on the flags. That would be massively embarrassing for the owners. Would make a massive impact.

But yeh could be borderline anti-semite if we're doing it to protest our Jewish owners.

 

[The Corinthian]

Not sure if this would be anti-semitism but could we use this as a Glazer protest? Pretty sure I've read in the past they do give money to Israel (happy to be corrected).

What if United fans brought in Palestine flags in HUGE numbers - all with Glazers out written on the flags. That would be massively embarrassing for the owners. Would make a massive impact.

But yeh could be borderline anti-semite if we're doing it to protest our Jewish owners.

I think you're thinking of Roman Abramovic:

Leaks show Chelsea owner Abramovich funded Israeli settler group | Roman Abramovich | The Guardian

 

[Sky1981]

Like seriously with all that's happening what else do you expect?

The west may be quick to quelch any signs of protest against Israel but you bet there are % increase in anti-Semitism.

We're practically watching a live genocide on reality TV.

The same with Islamophobia.

It is what it is. Let's not kid ourselves

 

[Andy_Cole]

Yes that’s shameful. I’ve seen a few people being kicked out for supporting Palestine but not for any Israel flags etc.

My mum works in a charity shop as a volunteer and they have a Save the Children campaign for children in Gaza. A Jewish woman came in the other day with her 4 kids and asked her and the other volunteer working to take down the campaign (‘the campaign is literally just a QR code to donate and some of the charity leaflets in a shop window).

When they refused the kids started giving them abuse and the woman said she’ll ring the police (???). A bizarre incident but shows how difficult this is going to get in the coming weeks if things stay the same.

That's the thing. I know we absolutely can't paint all Jewish people with the same brush, but a large majority are very pro Israel (anti-Palestine) and are quite vocal about it. I went to quite a Jewish high school so have a lot on Instagram and they are heavily posting pro Israel stuff. So when they are quite aggressive in their hate of Palestine, the opposite repercussions will naturally happen unfortunately.

Also posted in this very thread - any Pro Palestine protest in the point of view of the Jewish public is labeled as 'terrorist supporting anti-semitism'. Tensions are rising.

 

[The Corinthian]

That's the thing. I know we absolutely can't paint all Jewish people with the same brush, but a large majority are very pro Israel (anti-Palestine) and are quite vocal about it. I went to quite a Jewish high school so have a lot on Instagram and they are heavily posting pro Israel stuff. So when they are quite aggressive in their hate of Palestine, the opposite repercussions will naturally happen unfortunately.

Also posted in this very thread - any Pro Palestine protest in the point of view of the Jewish public is labeled as 'terrorist supporting anti-semitism'. Tensions are rising.

There is a growing number of anti-Zionist Jews though - the more we can do to amplify their voice the better.

I'm also seeing a lot more people from broader demographics that are seeing the injustice in the region who are making their voices known.

It's the politicians and media that control a lot of the power and narrative unfortunately.

 

[The Corinthian]

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@Andy_Cole is this the guy next to you

 

[Andy_Cole]

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@Andy_Cole is this the guy next to you

Yes - was just messaging him, crazy how much his tweet has blown up! The steward in the bottom right was the main instigator who seemed personally fuming about it all.

 

[jackal&hyde]

The damn left making right wingers racist.

No. Racists were and are still that regardless. The vocal left has become so irrational and closed off to debate that it forces more and more people to the right. Things have become so black and white in public discourse that many that were, or are, left are now hated by the vocal left; like atheist and many scientists that advocate reason and evidence based beliefs. This used to be the kryptonite of the far right and it's hard core Christians, young Earth creationists, racists, etc, today..my word you have a scientist talk about the irrational and lack of evidence points of Islam and the vocal left will have you for dinner and an ist and fob.

I don't know what possible better evidence can there be for the left failing so hard as having a monster like Trump winning. That was and is the single biggest evidence of people making a "f you" vote. Bring back the discourse of rationality to the left, give away this stupid "don't offend" policy that creates contradictions at every step, and the right wing does not win an election for the next 30 years.

 

[Demyanenko_square_jaw]

No. Racists were and are still that regardless. The vocal left has become so irrational and closed off to debate that it forces more and more people to the right. Things have become so black and white in public discourse that many that were, or are, left are now hated by the vocal left; like atheist and many scientists that advocate reason and evidence based beliefs. This used to be the kryptonite of the far right and it's hard core Christians, young Earth creationists, racists, etc, today..my word you have a scientist talk about the irrational and lack of evidence points of Islam and the vocal left will have you for dinner and an ist and fob.

I don't know what possible better evidence can there be for the left failing so hard as having a monster like Trump winning. That was and is the single biggest evidence of people making a "f you" vote. Bring back the discourse of rationality to the left, give away this stupid "don't offend" policy that creates contradictions at every step, and the right wing does not win an election for the next 30 years.

I don't buy this "pushes people to the right" thing much. For one, the right/conservatives in America and all across Europe have been distinctly more irrational and increasingly extreme. Rightwing conservative nationalist governments are the cause of the brutal war in Ukraine and the long deteriorating situation in israel-palestine (under Netanyahu in particular), which has now descended into large scale terrorist attack and genocidal government sanctioned militarism .

Personally i don't see any widespread hatred or disdain from Liberals and leftists against the discourse of rationality, atheists, or scientists expressing evidence based belief. mockery of some of the positions of the more extreme '00s "new atheists" like Dawkins, Harris and co, that go just up to the line of avoiding calling all muslims extremists/savages , or say things like religion is a form of mental illness? Sure, and they should be joked at/criticised imo, as it's just crude, bigoted and blatantly false sociology. Regardless, the right still have them comfortably defeated in dislike for atheism and all manner of science once you go past the moderates. Not the place you want to be "forced" to go if that's a big problem for you.

Specifically regarding religions, if libs/leftist parties decided to make emphasising the irrationality/lack of evidence of religion as a big manifesto point, or even just go full Islamophobe in particular to draw in the additional demographic that would appeal to, do you really think it would have made any difference, especially on the likes of the Trump win? The former wouldn't be taken well overall (or seen as a pressing issue) in some countries (the states being one) and the latter would just see the right be happy to see the window shifting, then go even further in their rhetoric.

 

[VorZakone]

I don't buy this "pushes people to the right" thing much. For one, the right/conservatives in America and all across Europe have been distinctly more irrational and increasingly extreme. Rightwing conservative nationalist governments are the cause of the brutal war in Ukraine and the long deteriorating situation in israel-palestine (under Netanyahu in particular), which has now descended into large scale terrorist attack and genocidal government sanctioned militarism .

Personally i don't see any widespread hatred or disdain from Liberals and leftists against the discourse of rationality, atheists, or scientists expressing evidence based belief. mockery of some of the positions of the more extreme '00s "new atheists" like Dawkins, Harris and co, that go just up to the line of avoiding calling all muslims extremists/savages , or say things like religion is a form of mental illness? Sure, and they should be joked at/criticised imo, as it's just crude, bigoted and blatantly false sociology. Regardless, the right still have them comfortably defeated in dislike for atheism and all manner of science once you go past the moderates. Not the place you want to be "forced" to go if that's a big problem for you.

Specifically regarding religions, if libs/leftist parties decided to make emphasising the irrationality/lack of evidence of religion as a big manifesto point, or even just go full Islamophobe in particular to draw in the additional demographic that would appeal to, do you really think it would have made any difference, especially on the likes of the Trump win? The former wouldn't be taken well overall (or seen as a pressing issue) in some countries (the states being one) and the latter would just see the right be happy to see the window shifting, then go even further in their rhetoric.

What do you think caused it?
(the bolded bit)

 

[Moby]

What do you think caused it?
(the bolded bit)

Discrimination in most cases is traditional.

 

[Badunk]

No. Racists were and are still that regardless. The vocal left has become so irrational and closed off to debate that it forces more and more people to the right. Things have become so black and white in public discourse that many that were, or are, left are now hated by the vocal left; like atheist and many scientists that advocate reason and evidence based beliefs. This used to be the kryptonite of the far right and it's hard core Christians, young Earth creationists, racists, etc, today..my word you have a scientist talk about the irrational and lack of evidence points of Islam and the vocal left will have you for dinner and an ist and fob.

I don't know what possible better evidence can there be for the left failing so hard as having a monster like Trump winning. That was and is the single biggest evidence of people making a "f you" vote. Bring back the discourse of rationality to the left, give away this stupid "don't offend" policy that creates contradictions at every step, and the right wing does not win an election for the next 30 years.

Why are the actions of the right the fault of the left?

The likes of the UK and US have had neoliberalism for decades. An asset-stripping attitude towards public services that has left people with fewer options in times of crisis and an education system not fit for purpose. A mainstream media that parrots the party line and points the finger at others for the consequences of neoliberalist policies. Small boats in the UK, Mexicans in the US. So you get people who are desparate, people who are distrustful (of the state, of outsiders, of the media), people who are less educated, and a ruling elite who continue to hoover up money, power and influence, and you end up where we are today.

How this is the fault of the left, I do not know.

 

[nimic]

I love it when people are so insecure in their principles that all it takes for them to become a right-winger (which they definitely weren't before, no no) is what someone else thinks of them.

Becoming a right-winger to own the libs.

Edit: I also love the idea that the right-wing becoming more is the fault of the left. It's intellectual dishonesty.

 

[moses]

I don't know what possible better evidence can there be for the left failing so hard as having a monster like Trump winning.

Not getting socialists elected is the left's fault. Everyone else voting for a fascist is not their fault.

 

[hasanejaz88]

What do you think caused it?
(the bolded bit)

Ummm I don't know, fear mongering? Making life perpetually worse for lower income people and then putting the blane for everything on immigrants? Seems a pretty tried and tested method.

 

[jadaba]

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Translation: Aubervillliers, Saint Ouen, 14th arrondissement of Paris. Same procedure, same Star of David stencil. Some want to terrorize French Jews by using the methods of the 1930s. They must be quickly found and severely punished.


Approximately 60 Stars of David have been spray painted overnight on apartments across multiple neighbourhoods in Paris. Chilling and depressing and mirrors the same acts done in Berlin last week.

 

[Kaos]

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Translation: Aubervillliers, Saint Ouen, 14th arrondissement of Paris. Same procedure, same Star of David stencil. Some want to terrorize French Jews by using the methods of the 1930s. They must be quickly found and severely punished.


Approximately 60 Stars of David have been spray painted overnight on apartments across multiple neighbourhoods in Paris. Chilling and depressing and mirrors the same acts done in Berlin last week.

Jesus feckin Christ. What the feck is wrong with people?!

 

[groovyalbert]

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Translation: Aubervillliers, Saint Ouen, 14th arrondissement of Paris. Same procedure, same Star of David stencil. Some want to terrorize French Jews by using the methods of the 1930s. They must be quickly found and severely punished.


Approximately 60 Stars of David have been spray painted overnight on apartments across multiple neighbourhoods in Paris. Chilling and depressing and mirrors the same acts done in Berlin last week.

It's absoltuely fecking chilling.

 

[africanspur]

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Translation: Aubervillliers, Saint Ouen, 14th arrondissement of Paris. Same procedure, same Star of David stencil. Some want to terrorize French Jews by using the methods of the 1930s. They must be quickly found and severely punished.


Approximately 60 Stars of David have been spray painted overnight on apartments across multiple neighbourhoods in Paris. Chilling and depressing and mirrors the same acts done in Berlin last week.

Prison time for these people when caught please.

 

[Bert_]

No. Racists were and are still that regardless. The vocal left has become so irrational and closed off to debate that it forces more and more people to the right. Things have become so black and white in public discourse that many that were, or are, left are now hated by the vocal left; like atheist and many scientists that advocate reason and evidence based beliefs. This used to be the kryptonite of the far right and it's hard core Christians, young Earth creationists, racists, etc, today..my word you have a scientist talk about the irrational and lack of evidence points of Islam and the vocal left will have you for dinner and an ist and fob.

I don't know what possible better evidence can there be for the left failing so hard as having a monster like Trump winning. That was and is the single biggest evidence of people making a "f you" vote. Bring back the discourse of rationality to the left, give away this stupid "don't offend" policy that creates contradictions at every step, and the right wing does not win an election for the next 30 years.

How do you define "the left"?

Trump won against a Centrist who offered nothing. If there was a left wing reformer option on the table, Trump might not have gotten so many "f you" votes.

 

[Superden]

https://x.com/KarenPollock100/status/1719452857542332873?t=hGOwhRUs4pwVu6q3Gh8Lxw&s=19

Shes the head of the holocaust educational trust.

All the usual voices have chimed in (likes of Kate Hoey), the ones that quite happily weaponise anti-semitism, whilst being complete bigots themselves... Slight problem here though, this demo was organised by Jews against Genocide.

 

[icehole]

How do you define "the left"?

Trump won against a Centrist who offered nothing. If there was a left wing reformer option on the table, Trump might not have gotten so many "f you" votes.

He would have won by more. And probably the popular vote.

 

[VorZakone]

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[Roane]

Prison time for these people when caught please.

I am probably 110% wrong here but isn't the blue star of David a Jewish symbol of hope and the shield of David or something along those lines. The colour blue being from some biblical verse?

I hundred percent condemn racism of any sort and racist graffiti is to me the cowards way.

These stars are stencilled and neat and "uniform". Not your usual spray can vandalism type of racist graffiti.

Now I don't know the neighbourhoods this has been done in and like I said I'm likely wrong but are we sure this is done with antisemitic intentions and not some , possibly misguided, attempt at showing support for Jews?


Not trying to be clever here or contrary. Swastikas, yellow stars, some of the other stuff scrawled on walls is clearly anti semetic.

 

[do.ob]

I am probably 110% wrong here but isn't the blue star of David a Jewish symbol of hope and the shield of David or something along those lines. The colour blue being from some biblical verse?

I hundred percent condemn racism of any sort and racist graffiti is to me the cowards way.

These stars are stencilled and neat and "uniform". Not your usual spray can vandalism type of racist graffiti.

Now I don't know the neighbourhoods this has been done in and like I said I'm likely wrong but are we sure this is done with antisemitic intentions and not some , possibly misguided, attempt at showing support for Jews?


Not trying to be clever here or contrary. Swastikas, yellow stars, some of the other stuff scrawled on walls is clearly anti semetic.

Using a cut out = support
free styling = hate

It is known.

 

[2cents]

“Just asking questions.”

 

[Roane]

Good to ask questions. Learn a lot.

 

[NotThatSoph]

“Just asking questions.”

If I saw those David stars about, then I would absolutely assume they were meant in support of either Jews or Israel. Conversely, if I saw the star of David tagged on a synagogue, like in Berlin, then I would assume it's an antisemitic attack.

It doesn't mean I would be right, and if they're e.g. placed on the homes of Jewish people by others, then I'd obviously assume the opposite, but that would be my initial reaction.

 

[Jordi]

Likewise, If I saw those stencils walking down the street I would assume it was meant in solidarity not anti-semitic. So "asking questions" is certainly valid here.

 

[do.ob]

If I saw those David stars about, then I would absolutely assume they were meant in support of either Jews or Israel. Conversely, if I saw the star of David tagged on a synagogue, like in Berlin, then I would assume it's an antisemitic attack.

It doesn't mean I would be right, and if they're e.g. placed on the homes of Jewish people by others, then I'd obviously assume the opposite, but that would be my initial reaction.

Yeah.. I know.. when I read that 60 different stars were painted on houses in different parts of town over night and the same had been done in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, the first thing that came to my mind was that it must have been in support of either Jews or Israel.. Probably some underground support group.

 

[NotThatSoph]

Yeah.. I know.. when I read that 60 different stars were painted on houses in different parts of town over night and the same had been done in Berlin a couple of weeks ago, the first thing that came to my mind was that it must have been in support of either Jews or Israel..

No, there is no must here, which is why I said that this would be my reaction seeing them and that I don't know if I would be right.

 

[Roane]

It's really hard to make a comment on here sometimes without having to write an essay to ensure its not taken wrong.

Just as a clarification though I'm from Kashmir. It has its own problems.

Mottos, slogans, pictures, signs etc are all very important in the "struggle".

I was born there and as a kid used to see stamps go up with certain signs during certain periods. Never understood them then. But later realised the importance of some of these things

 

[NotThatSoph]

Take the ones in Berlin, here are some examples:

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These, especially the bottom one, are clearly meant in a negative way. They also look like marks. My initial reaction would be that these are clearly antisemitic. If I learned that the person living there is Jewish, Israeli, or pro-Israel, then that would confirm it. If I learned that the person living there is Muslim, Palestinian, or pro-Palestine, then I would take it as a "feck you, Israel will win". Obviously it's the former in this case.

These, however, look more like decorations to me:

My initial reaction would be to take it as a show of solidarity or support, like how Ukranian people and people who support Ukraine defending themselves against the Russian invasion painted the Ukranian colours everywhere. Obviously I could be wrong, but that is how it looks to me without knowing the context and who did it.

 

[Mike Smalling]

The historical context around marking buildings with the star of David means that everyone should be highly skeptical about these being meant as support, no matter the colour and finish. Many Jews in Europe are rightly feeling extra threatened these days, so it seems very unlikely to me that they would willingly mark their own homes to make it easily recognisable for every antisemite out there.

It doesn't seem particularly friendly to me.

 

[do.ob]

Take the ones in Berlin, here are some examples:

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These, especially the bottom one, are clearly meant in a negative way. They also look like marks. My initial reaction would be that these are clearly antisemitic. If I learned that the person living there is Jewish, Israeli, or pro-Israel, then that would confirm it. If I learned that the person living there is Muslim, Palestinian, or pro-Palestine, then I would take it as a "feck you, Israel will win". Obviously it's the former in this case.

These, however, look more like decorations to me:

My initial reaction would be to take it as a show of solidarity or support, like how Ukranian people and people who support Ukraine in their defense of the Russian invasion painted the Ukranian colours everywhere. Obviously I could be wrong, but that is how it looks to me without knowing the context and who did it.

Decorate their own houses with several randomly placed stars .. .. at night .. .. at a time when antisemitism is on the rise.
Up next: those pictures from Berlin just look like children's chalk drawings. Probably in support of Israel.

 

[RedC]

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Translation: Aubervillliers, Saint Ouen, 14th arrondissement of Paris. Same procedure, same Star of David stencil. Some want to terrorize French Jews by using the methods of the 1930s. They must be quickly found and severely punished.


Approximately 60 Stars of David have been spray painted overnight on apartments across multiple neighbourhoods in Paris. Chilling and depressing and mirrors the same acts done in Berlin last week.

What is wrong with the world? Imagine coming home from work and seeing that on your door. Horrific.

 

[NotThatSoph]

The historical context around marking buildings with the star of David means that everyone should be highly skeptical about these being meant as support, no matter the colour and finish. Many Jews in Europe are rightly feeling extra threatened these days, so it seems very unlikely to me that they would willingly mark their own homes to make it easily recognisable for every antisemite out there.

It doesn't seem particularly friendly to me.

I don't think it's plausible that they would have done it to their own homes, for the reasons you mention, it would be someone not living there. I agree it makes sense to take it as a threat, and it's also fairly likely it's correct.

 

[Jippy]

The historical context around marking buildings with the star of David means that everyone should be highly skeptical about these being meant as support, no matter the colour and finish. Many Jews in Europe are rightly feeling extra threatened these days, so it seems very unlikely to me that they would willingly mark their own homes to make it easily recognisable for every antisemite out there.

It doesn't seem particularly friendly to me.

I guess where you are is part of the context. Maybe in a council estate in Bradford you'd assume they're racist, but if I saw them in Singapore I wouldn't think they were racist

There have been a lot of articles about non-Jews and Jews both flying Israeli flags as signs of solidarity too, so there is potential scope for confusion.