Arsenal - Dirty team

alastair

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Makki said:
There will always be controversy if you look extremely closely for it. Maybe I'm biased, but I think the card/free kick statistics reflect pretty well on the game that I saw..

Regarding the dubious penalty, I don't see how you can go on about that when you time after time, when being quizzed on it, fail to respond to whether Chamakh should've had a penalty against him in the first half? Things did, as people say they will, even themselves out in my opinion, and a ref is much more likely to give a 'soft' foul if he's denied a clear one before in order to keep the game under control, which is what I think Webb was doing when choosing not to blow for the handball on Chamakh.
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If a ref is more likely to give a soft one to even things up, he should be sacked. Independent decision making is the core of refereeing. "Evening things up" should be absolutely outlawed.

With the Chamakh one, if the Clichy one is penalty, the Chamakh one is too. Yes. One was given, one was not. I personally don't think either should have been given, but you have to be consistent - you can't just give one of them.

On a more general point, I think handballs are very harsh sometimes. It seems to happen every week that players appeal for a penalty when they strike a players arm from like five metres away - it's ludicrous. They should outlaw giving them unless they're absolutely blatant.
 

8thWonder

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Jopub said:
This is comical

You talk like you were Barca v Real the other week

You were a bit better than us, a bit, and we were piss poor, you did not create a bucketful of great chances that were spurned as you spanked us by 5 or 6 - you huffed and puffed and Ferguson spent the game employing a defensively solid tactic that nullified anything we tried. Your best players on the pitch according to ferguson were your back four !

You did not keep the ball for ages, dominate us, run rings around us, smash us 6-0 roll us over with fantasy football

Fk me what were you watching!?!

You like us were poor especially in the first half and you like us hardly strung two passes together. If you think Utd were anything other than workmanlike your fking brain dead

You harried us, you worked your bollocks off, you tactically kept it tight and pushed us into small useless spaces and scored a flukey goal.

You still, it has to be said, did those things better than us and so deserved the win - no-one would argue that but at no point were you making the fantasy football pulses race away

At most points where you did try to be adventurous you were dreadful! not brilliant - Carrick Park and Fletcher were giving the ball away like it was a hot potato and getting stick from the crowd for doing it consistantly

I bet if I looked in the match thread right now to where before you scored I'd see loads of you moaning and bitching about how poor Park, Carrick, Anderson and Fletcher were - particularly Fletcher and Park who before the goal was fking abysmal creatively he could'nt trap a bag of cement

Rooney was flapping about up front and Clichy was keeping a grip on Nani too who's deflected cross cause Parks flukey header. Oh and the Old Trafford crowd was getting on your backs because of dreadful crossing too

The ball spent most of its life popping about in midfield. One Nani shot in the first half went close - one

The whole fist half was like this and most of the second too

I have not imagined or invented any of this - this is how this game was played and you'd have to fking blind to see it in some opposite way

How in fks names you end up talking about how appalling we were in comparison to your 'brilliance' is mystifying.

It was a tight slightly negative game with nobody wanting to lose which Ferguson with spot on tactics won comfortably - nothing more

Agreed disappointing for us because the onus was on us to actually push you back on your heels with penetrating decisive play but we never even got started at that which for us is of course shit poor. You put a stranglehold on us in midfield that we were incapable of breaking down

I think that's a mental thing Ferguson has got over us and will probably remain whilst Wenger is in charge of us but if you think you were the next Barcalona you're demented

I think if you play like that at Chelsea they'll beat you comfortably

As for tackles - fkinhell - over the last 12 years Ferguson has used intimidation against us and others as a legitimate tactic - fair play, so if we do resort to it every now and again so what ? - its about time and I'd rather that than see us roll over and admire you running around us. You'd do it / have done so there should be no moaning about it from any of you
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Are passing was poor in terms of keeping possession, but we looked dangerous every time we went forward. Nani had a one on one. Anderson had one on one. Nani had a snap shot which was about an inch wide, you clearly handled the ball in the box twice, one obviously given, one not, park scored, rooney's chip attempt. We really should have scored more just based on the chances we did create. You had Chamakhs header in the first 5 mins and Chamakh's very good chance in the second. We probably should have beat you by 2/3 goals and were wasteful with our chances in all honesty.

The second point, when we actually tried to be adventurous we were poor? That's partly the reason this thread was created, every time we had a great oppurtunity to break you were cynical and broke us up with a niggly foul. It wasn't a vintage performance by us by any stretch but we looked like if we needed to we could/would score another. It was a fairly routine, comfortable game from us. Last year you were much better at Old Trafford.
 

8thWonder

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alastair said:
If a ref is more likely to give a soft one to even things up, he should be sacked. Independent decision making is the core of refereeing. "Evening things up" should be absolutely outlawed.

With the Chamakh one, if the Clichy one is penalty, the Chamakh one is too. Yes. One was given, one was not. I personally don't think either should have been given, but you have to be consistent - you can't just give one of them.

On a more general point, I think handballs are very harsh sometimes. It seems to happen every week that players appeal for a penalty when they strike a players arm from like five metres away - it's ludicrous. They should outlaw giving them unless they're absolutely blatant.
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Your acting like it was a shocking decision when it was clearly a handball that stopped Nani from progressing into the 6 yard box. It's not one you can say 'he definately got wrong' because its an opinion call and your not going to be subjective are you? 50/50 whether that's given anywhere in the country, certainly not a shocking call by any stretch, people moaning about webb and the refereeing performance in this game hints a little at desperation.
 

peterstorey

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8thWonder said:
Your acting like it was a shocking decision when it was clearly a handball that stopped Nani from progressing into the 6 yard box. It's not one you can say 'he definately got wrong' because its an opinion call and your not going to be subjective are you? 50/50 whether that's given anywhere in the country, certainly not a shocking call by any stretch, people moaning about webb and the refereeing performance in this game hints a little at desperation.
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It was a really ridiculous call given by the lino.
 

Makki

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peterstorey said:
No way was that a pen, the foul by Rafael on Chamakh was more of a shout.
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Seriously, your retardedness is starting to wind me up. A person can't be this thick?

He just put his shoulder in against Chamakh to prevent him from getting to the ball, and Chamakh went down like a sack of shit (but remember, you don't have a fanny like Nani that goes down on minimal contact as you yourself so nicely put it), and you're calling that more of a penalty than Chamakh's handball? feck off, you're really winding me up with your stupidity now.
 

Allforone

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Makki said:
Seriously, your retardedness is starting to wind me up. A person can't be this thick?

He just put his shoulder in against Chamakh to prevent him from getting to the ball, and Chamakh went down like a sack of shit (but remember, you don't have a fanny like Nani that goes down on minimal contact as you yourself so nicely put it), and you're calling that more of a penalty than Chamakh's handball? feck off, you're really winding me up with your stupidity now.
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Shit is that the one your on about Peter?

Christ on a shopping trolly.
 

peterstorey

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Makki said:
Seriously, your retardedness is starting to wind me up. A person can't be this thick?

He just put his shoulder in against Chamakh to prevent him from getting to the ball, and Chamakh went down like a sack of shit (but remember, you don't have a fanny like Nani that goes down on minimal contact as you yourself so nicely put it), and you're calling that more of a penalty than Chamakh's handball? feck off, you're really winding me up with your stupidity now.
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That's a foul you ubertwat.
 

Allforone

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Oh ffs are you serious? that happens half a dozen times a match in every penalty area, a Defender cant fully get the ball so he leans gently into an opponent to stop them getting a clear header on it, if your going to start giving pens for that we might as well get used to 7 plays 6 every match.

Man up you bunch of jessies.
 

Kraftwerker

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peterstorey said:
No way was that a pen, the foul by Rafael on Chamakh was more of a shout.
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Once upon a time in pretendy storey land...

You'd be writing letters to the FA if you'd been denied the Chamakh one in our box at 0-0. Don't lie.

Anyway, why are we still talking about decisions? Far more pressing matters.

10 defeats in 11 games against the 'big 2'. How does that feel storey? What's your opinion on Arsenal's repeated failures against decent opponents?
 

Makki

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Kraftwerker said:
Once upon a time in pretendy storey land...

You'd be writing letters to the FA if you'd been denied the Chamakh one in our box at 0-0. Don't lie.

Anyway, why are we still talking about decisions? Far more pressing matters.

10 defeats in 11 games against the 'big 2'. How does that feel storey? What's your opinion on Arsenal's repeated failures against decent opponents?
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It's hard to win when you're as hard done by by the refs as they are.. I mean, look at the blatant foul from Rafael on Chamakh, how dare he nudge him with his shoulder? Boo-hoo.
 

Xander45

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Allforone said:
Oh ffs are you serious? that happens half a dozen times a match in every penalty area, a Defender cant fully get the ball so he leans gently into an opponent to stop them getting a clear header on it, if your going to start giving pens for that we might as well get used to 7 plays 6 every match.

Man up you bunch of jessies.
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Not a jessy, just saying that Rafael has had pens given against him for similar fouls. They do get given by some refs, luckily not a ref without balls like Mr Webb.
 

peterstorey

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Kraftwerker said:
Once upon a time in pretendy storey land...

You'd be writing letters to the FA if you'd been denied the Chamakh one in our box at 0-0. Don't lie.

Anyway, why are we still talking about decisions? Far more pressing matters.

10 defeats in 11 games against the 'big 2'. How does that feel storey? What's your opinion on Arsenal's repeated failures against decent opponents?
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First up you're the guys who wanted to open a thread about fouls. As for the record, it's history now and you and Chelsea have to play us at our place.
 

Makki

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Xander45 said:
Not a jessy, just saying that Rafael has had pens given against him for similar fouls. They do get given by some refs, luckily not a ref without balls like Mr Webb.
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That's bollocks. I think that little nudge showed a significant change in Rafael's way of defending, if anything. Last season, he'd have barged into Chamakh, hoping the ref wouldn't notice, in order to stop him from getting the free header, but now he just gave him a little nudge, putting him off balance (and my, did he cause Chamakh to lose his balance) so that he wouldn't be able to get it right.

Excellent defending, and something all great defenders are masters of, just putting oneself underneath the ball and disturbing the attacker enough to ensure that he doesn't score, while making minimal contact at the exact right time.
 

Feedingseagulls

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Re the 'soft' penalty:

I was actually quite surprised, when I watched the game again yesterday eve, to notice (in the slo-mo) that the defender actually raised his arm & hand off the ground a little just before the ball made contact. It wasn't 'away & back' either.

So whilst it wasn't quite the 'forward & up' motion suggested by the linesman's gesture, you could certainly see how, from the sidelines, he could have noticed the arm move into the path of the ball.
 

CnutOfAllCnuts

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alastair said:
If a ref is more likely to give a soft one to even things up, he should be sacked. Independent decision making is the core of refereeing. "Evening things up" should be absolutely outlawed.

With the Chamakh one, if the Clichy one is penalty, the Chamakh one is too. Yes. One was given, one was not. I personally don't think either should have been given, but you have to be consistent - you can't just give one of them.

On a more general point, I think handballs are very harsh sometimes. It seems to happen every week that players appeal for a penalty when they strike a players arm from like five metres away - it's ludicrous. They should outlaw giving them unless they're absolutely blatant.
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Why on earth should not the Chamakh one have been given? :confused:
 

CnutOfAllCnuts

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alastair said:
Didn't move his arm to the ball.

That wasn't really the point though - what I was saying is that for the sake of consistency you have to give both, or neither. You can't give one of them.
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Makes no difference whether it was arm to ball. His arm stopped the flight of the ball, hence it was a penalty. Basic football rules.

And it was a clearer foul than the one given.
 

amolbhatia50k

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CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Makes no difference whether it was arm to ball. His arm stopped the flight of the ball, hence it was a penalty. Basic football rules.

And it was a clearer foul than the one given.
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There was one given against us when the ball touched Carrick's arm at stamford bridge a couple of years ago. The penalty Ballack put away to win the game for Chelsea. Intention doesn't seem to have much with it.

As for the Nani debate, yes he playacts and none of us like it, but he actually doesn't dive. At least not in recent times. He just either has a very low pain threshold or likes to make the most of out tackles. It's wrong but whether it's worse than diving, which is something I can't remember him doing for ages, is a different debate.
 

kietotheworld

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CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Makes no difference whether it was arm to ball. His arm stopped the flight of the ball, hence it was a penalty. Basic football rules.

And it was a clearer foul than the one given.
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It must be deliberate handball for it to be a penalty.
 

Xander45

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CnutOfAllCnuts said:
Makes no difference whether it was arm to ball. His arm stopped the flight of the ball, hence it was a penalty. Basic football rules.
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From the referee's notebook.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with
the ball with his hand or arm. The referee must take the following into
consideration:
• the movement of the hand towards the ball (not the ball towards the hand)
• the distance between the opponent and the ball (unexpected ball)
• the position of the hand does not necessarily mean that there is an
infringement
• touching the ball with an object held in the hand (clothing, shinguard, etc.)
counts as an infringement
• hitting the ball with a thrown object (boot, shinguard, etc.) counts as an
infringement
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