Ballon d'Or 2016
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Some essay writing skills being exhibited in this thread.
Well Ronaldo has scored 500 goals now, so having 25 of them be in 4-5 goal blowouts doesn't sound too bad. I've only seen Best in short clips and youtube videos -- good player.
You do get bonus points for enthusiasm and abilities re multi-quoting.
The point of being a forward is to score -- there are a bunch who don't score (and don't win) who weren't shortlisted this year. Maybe next year?
Im surprised at this, the 82 squad was one of the most exciting teams ever and one of the best teams to have never won the WC.
I honestly thought you were arguing with yourself for a second.
This is extremely harsh and I don't think any neutral fans would agree on this. You are setting the criteria so high that basically no one can qualify as standout of any tournament except maybe Maradona in 86 (which he didn't score in final though or against every opponents btw, so following your line of logic you can act very harsh on him as well)
Fact is he has scored 16 goals in competition, by far top goalscorer, scored/contributed on crucial matches during the knockout stages and won the competition, if Messi or other players did that they will be hearing praises from everywhere.
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Someone ban this kid. How is Beckenbauer "better" than Ronaldo. You can't compare wingers to midfielders; let alone defenders. How are any of the rest "so much better". You provide no evidence and make outlandish claims whilst trying to make them out as facts.
Clearly, you like seeing large numbers when you press the alert button and are looking for attention.
If I was I would still lose
I wish people could just agree that he is the greatest goalscorer of all time, but still a little bit off being the most talented player of all time. I'm happy to leave it at that and personally don't see a problem with it 
That looks like way too sensible of a post to be seen in here.I wish people could just agree that he is the greatest goalscorer of all time, but still a little bit off being the most talented player of all time. I'm happy to leave it at that and personally don't see a problem with it
So what makes Ronaldo actually so much better than Gerd Müller?
I wouldn't say so much better, but the physicality/skill set of modern players makes Ronaldos feats more impressive IMO, plus he has done it in two proper leagues.
No but that doesn't work out. He has to be a lot better than Müller if people claim he's better than Beckenbauer and even Cruijff. He can't just be at around the same level as Müller and still be better than Cruijff.
(You could also argue that Müller has been a lot more impressive for his national team and also has a great record in finals)
People can claim whatever they like. It's their opinion. I believe Ronaldo to be the best goalscorer ever but not as talented as cruyff.
He had a phase in his career where he did more than Muller on the pitch, at world class levels.
Of course they can claim whatever they want especially in a discussion as "meaningless" as who's the better footballer between generational greats. But I guess it's a bit boring if we just state our opinion and don't discuss it.
Btw I guess it looks like a direct response to you but it was more of a general question as you only claimed that Ronaldo is the greatest goalscorer
Hm. Müller was a lot more than just a goal scorer as well to be fair but not a bad answer. But does that mean that as a goalscorer/after his transformation he's on the same level as Müller for you?
It will be discussed to death and there will never be a completely satisfactory answer.
If I answered that question with any confidence I'd be lying. Don't know much about Muller apart from his style of play, which Ronaldo c 2007-2011 had and more.
Never watch Muller played so I couldn't give my own opinion on that (past football footage doesn't count as they only shown the glimpse or best of him but not the whole or worst). By looking at their goalscoring stats, it seems they are equally impressive so maybe they are equal in terms of goalscoring. In terms of assist, Ronaldo has 3rd most assist in Europe (only behind Messi and Ozil?) over past 5 or 6 years I think, so I guess Ronaldo wins there.
But then we are comparing players from different era, so the best way is to look at their individual achievement in respect to the context (ballon D'or and Golden shoe awards etc)
Ballon D'or:
Ronaldo won 4 and finished 5 times as 1st runners up. His main rival is Messi, who is among top 3 GOAT.
Muller won 1, 1 times 1st runners up, 2 times 2nd runners up. His main rival is Eusebio/Beckenbauer/Cruyff etc, among top 10 GOAT.
Ronaldo wins.
Golden shoe:
Ronaldo won 4 times
Muller won 2 times
Ronaldo wins.
In terms of club career:
Ronaldo won CL 3 times, league champion 4 times, domestic cup 3 times etc
Muller won CL 3 times, league champion 4 times, domestic cup 4 times etc
Tie.
In terms of international career:
Ronaldo won Euro 1 time, semi 1 time, WC semi 1 time. Scored 68 goals, currently all time top scorer for Portugal, country captain, currently all time top goalscorer in euro.
Muller won Euro 1 time, WC 1 time, 3rd place 1 time. Scored 68 goals, previously all time top scorer for Germany and in WC.
Tie
(In respective to context, Germany was much stronger team than Portugal, but their achievement was similar, with Muller slightly better)
Overall, Ronaldo is better than Muller I'd say, based on superior amount of individual awards won and worldwide recognition over their respective career, and superior assist stats (presumably). There's nothing much in between their goalscoring stats, records, club and international career though.
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@Raul Madrid can't be bothered to make another long post, so i'll just sum up my point: using the golden ball as the measure of a player's greatness is stupid because the golden ball is inherently flawed. To say that player A is better than player B because he won it more times is, in itself, wrong.
Discussions like this are subjective. We are not discussing science. Ronaldo has convinced the majority that he has been the best player in the world more times than Zidane did, even though Ronaldo was up against Messi. That says something (context has to be applied of course, which I did in my previous posts). Using the fact that Ronaldo achieved that is certainly worth more than us simply stating one was better than the other over and over again, even though they play in different positions and what they do is not the same. The most Ronaldo can do is to convince the majority of people that he is the best, and like I said, he did that more times than Zidane did. You even admit Ronaldo did much more for Madrid and are simply using one goal as your reason for him being better.
If you are so sure Zidane is better, make a thread with a poll asking who was better between the two.
Yeah i wasn't disputing which of the two would be considered the best 20 years from now. Because that is subjective, just as the golden ball. I was stating why I think Zidane was better for madrid than cristiano, and why I consider him the better player in general. That then turned into a discussion about the golden ball's worth and its value as the measure of a player's greatness, and again, i gave my reasons for considering it kinda empty and not at all a realistic way to judge players.
As for making a poll, no point. This is a man united fan board, not a real madrid fan board. And as for judging who was the better player overall, again, no point. I'm not gonna change my mind because other people have a different opinion on a subjective matter
As for making a poll, no point. This is a man united fan board, not a real madrid fan board. And as for judging who was the better player overall, again, no point. I'm not gonna change my mind because other people have a different opinion on a subjective matter
Nobody expects you to change your mind, that is not the point of discussions on here, but finding out what the consensus is on who is considered better is worth much more than us just repeating over and over again that one was better than the other and comparing them, even though they play in different positions and what they do is not the same.
We will never find a consensus, because the matter is subjective. Even had they been playing at their peak at the same time. I mean, we couln't even reach a consensus on Messi being the best player of the last decade.
If you ask a catalan to rank xavi, iniesta and cristiano, 90% of them will have cristiano 3rd. Many other Spanish will rank either or both ahead of him as well. If you make the zidane vs cristiano argument in france, they'd laugh at you. In brazil, the 5 greatest players of all time are Pelé, Garrincha, Romario, Zico and Ronaldo.
If you ask a catalan to rank xavi, iniesta and cristiano, 90% of them will have cristiano 3rd. Many other Spanish will rank either or both ahead of him as well. If you make the zidane vs cristiano argument in france, they'd laugh at you. In brazil, the 5 greatest players of all time are Pelé, Garrincha, Romario, Zico and Ronaldo.
Of course there is a consensus, and there is definitely a consensus that Messi is the best player of the last decade. He is considered as one of the very best ever (ie top 3-4). The people that consider Ronaldo better than Messi at his best are a minority. That is not true that in Spain that most consider Xavi and Iniesta better, Ronaldo is considered the 2nd best player in the world. That is very much his reputation in the media and amongst fans.
I didn't say most, I said many. Most is in catalunia only
No there isn't.
Who tried to argue for that?I wish people could just agree that he is the greatest goalscorer of all time, but still a little bit off being the most talented player of all time. I'm happy to leave it at that and personally don't see a problem with it
It's still far less flaw/bias than basing on one/your own opinion though.
There absolutely is. I have lost count of the number of quotes from notable people who have called Messi better and the best of all time. Ferguson is one of the few who backs Ronaldo over Messi and Messi has more individual awards too, which were awarded to him because the consensus amongst the players, coaches and journalists was that Messi is better. Even a large amount of Madrid fans consider Messi better. What makes you say that the consensus isn't that Messi is better? If bothered, I could post so many quotes from notable people saying Messi is better.
That's not a consensus, it's a majority opinion and this is every bit as arrogant as it sounds, but the opinion of the captain of vanuatu isn't worth more than mine, or yours.
Seems a strange point to make in the context of this thread, discussing an award which has been rating and comparing players in every position for over half a century. Of course you can compare them. There may not be a whole lot of science to it but we're talking about football here.
Beckenbauer for me is at a different level to Ronaldo. That said, Ronaldo matching Messi's haul of Ballons D'or before he retires would be one of the most impressive individual feats in football history. He's clearly an inferior player and his powers are waning but he's still finding ways to surpass Messi. Quite incredible.
It is the vast majority that consider him better though. I agree that all our opinions count and we are entitled to think whoever we want is the best, but most of the time, if not all of the time, you cannot prove that one player is factually better overall than another, for different reasons. Like with music, TV and movies etc, the consensus or majority opinion is the closest we will get to the "correct" answer of which or who is better.
There's a strong case for Ronaldo being the most complete goalscorer of all time and I think it's a good comparison to make. However, even cutting Ronaldo a bit of slack for playing for a less dominant team, I think Muller's international track record is far better:
Muller 62 caps, 68 goals
Ronaldo 136 caps, 68 goals
Muller 13 World Cup games, 14 goals
Ronaldo 13 World Cup games, 3 goals
Muller 5 games in World Cup/Euro semi-finals/finals, 7 goals
Ronaldo 5 games in World Cup/Euro semi-finals/finals, 2 goals (not counting his 10-minute cameo in the 2016 final)
Ronaldo Winger until he joined Real Madrid then a Wide/Inside Forward
Muller Striker his entire career
Get a grip people ffs
Which is ok imo as long as the discussion is still productive. I mean I don't expect to come here, post a couple of posts and everyone suddenly changes their opinion to mine. But that doesn't mean we can't still gain something from the discussion.
Fair enough and it's true that C Ronaldo had more to his game during that period.
I wouldn't say there's much between them regarding assists. According to tm Müller has more than 100 assists in the Bundesliga for example. It's always a bit dodgy with assists for old players but it shouldn't be a big difference in the end. I'd say that's a tie.
I have to admit I have no idea where Eusebio came from here. His main rivals must've been Cruijff and Beckenbauer.
However the thing is that the criteria has clearly changed. I know it's always hard to prove but I think it's pretty clear. In 72 Müller had his world record year. 85 goals in 60 games. Won the europea cup. Scored a brace in the final and finished as top scorer of the tournament. Yet he finished 2nd in the balon dor - behind Beckenbauer, a defensive player. In 73 he had an extremely strong year and finished 3rd. Behind Cruijff and Zoff - a goalkeeper who only won nothing more than a league title that season. I mean this won't happen in our times. Imagine Ronaldo scoring 85 goals in 60 games and finishing behind his teams defensive midfielder. Or let him have a good year and finish behind say de Gea who won only the PL that season. I don't think this is possible in our times. I'm actually quite sure that going by todays criteria Müller would have a lot more balon d'or awards.
Problem is that the criteria changed. Back then scoring a goal in a weak league was worth as much as scoring a goal in the best league. This might have changed the outcome but I'd say fair enough.
Agree with the part about the club career.
I think that's a bit harsh on Müller. Winning the WC and EC and being the main goalscorer of his team, scoring in the main games and being regarded as the 2nd most important player in both tournaments I'd say is worth more. If Ronaldo had been THE outstanding player of his team I'd say fair enough but he "only" was one of his teams main players.
I think it's very close between the two.
His last season as a more conventional winger was 2006/07. He's had the team built around his goalscoring since 2007.
Only on this thread can you call someone the most complete goalscorer of all time and still be hammered for the post by sensitive fanboys.
This argument counts for something, but the post you quoted directly answered a post that stated there's not much between Ronaldo's and Müller's goalscoring statistics. And statistic-wise, Müller wins easily, as do several other forwards. Doesn't mean these stats can't be weighted and put in perspective, but since the argument was about statistics, @Gio's post is completely justified.
Also, inverted wide forwards are often prime goalscorers in our era (Messi, Ronaldo, Neymar, probably Robben if he had been healthy enough). As long as Ronaldo was a classical winger (I can't judge by myself, but I trust those who followed his career from the start) this argument counts. Since he became more of a wide forward, the direct comparison is apt in my opinion.
We all have our bias, but individual accolades aside, trophies etc. just rating them as football players who do you believe is superior?