Redondo_Pirri
Full Member
It's pretty amazing when you consider half of his career he was a proper winger.
Some essay writing skills being exhibited in this thread.
Yeah, about that, quality of goals > quantity of goals. Scoring 25 goals in 4-5 goals blowout against minnows looks very good when you look at stats. Not so much when somebody actually watches you score 5 against espanyol and then disappear in the champions league semifinal AND final. Cristiano Ronaldo, and to a lesser extent Messi, are the biggest stats-padding players ever.
Also? Goals are the most important aspect of the game, sure. But simply scoring more goals doesn't automatically make one the better player
People who say this are being romantic more than anything. Ok they got to 2 finals so they must've been agood group but no one over shadows Spain's treble of tournaments. I've never heard of Brazil 82 been mentioned in more superlative form than 1970's which has been regarded as the best world cup squad ever.
Indeed it may be unfair to compare Ronaldo to Puskas at those respective ages which kinda makes this all a very pointless exercise!
Im surprised at this, the 82 squad was one of the most exciting teams ever and one of the best teams to have never won the WC.
He didn't, really. He contributed justcas much as Bale, Kroos, Modric, Pepe, Casemiro, Marcelo, Carvajal, Keylor and Ramos. There was no real standout player for us in the last CL. In 2013-14, Di Maria, Bale, Ramos and Modric contributed as much or more than him(certainly Di Maria and Bale did), for all that he scored 6 goals in 3 games against galatasaray and copenaghen, two meaningless goals against bayern, 1 meaningless goal in the final...
Someone ban this kid. How is Beckenbauer "better" than Ronaldo. You can't compare wingers to midfielders; let alone defenders. How are any of the rest "so much better". You provide no evidence and make outlandish claims whilst trying to make them out as facts.Really? Really?
Maradona/Pele/Messi(obviously)/Cruyff/Beckenbaur/Ronaldo 9 all so much better than Ronnie its not even funny (i could name another 10 EASY Puskas etc)
If I was I would still loseI honestly thought you were arguing with yourself for a second.
I wish people could just agree that he is the greatest goalscorer of all time, but still a little bit off being the most talented player of all time. I'm happy to leave it at that and personally don't see a problem with it
So what makes Ronaldo actually so much better than Gerd Müller?
No but that doesn't work out. He has to be a lot better than Müller if people claim he's better than Beckenbauer and even Cruijff. He can't just be at around the same level as Müller and still be better than Cruijff.I wouldn't say so much better, but the physicality/skill set of modern players makes Ronaldos feats more impressive IMO, plus he has done it in two proper leagues.
No but that doesn't work out. He has to be a lot better than Müller if people claim he's better than Beckenbauer and even Cruijff. He can't just be at around the same level as Müller and still be better than Cruijff.
(You could also argue that Müller has been a lot more impressive for his national team and also has a great record in finals)
So what makes Ronaldo actually so much better than Gerd Müller?
Of course they can claim whatever they want especially in a discussion as "meaningless" as who's the better footballer between generational greats. But I guess it's a bit boring if we just state our opinion and don't discuss it.People can claim whatever they like. It's their opinion. I believe Ronaldo to be the best goalscorer ever but not as talented as cruyff.
Hm. Müller was a lot more than just a goal scorer as well to be fair but not a bad answer. But does that mean that as a goalscorer/after his transformation he's on the same level as Müller for you?He had a phase in his career where he did more than Muller on the pitch, at world class levels.
Of course they can claim whatever they want especially in a discussion as "meaningless" as who's the better footballer between generational greats. But I guess it's a bit boring if we just state our opinion and don't discuss it.
Btw I guess it looks like a direct response to you but it was more of a general question as you only claimed that Ronaldo is the greatest goalscorer
Hm. Müller was a lot more than just a goal scorer as well to be fair but not a bad answer. But does that mean that as a goalscorer/after his transformation he's on the same level as Müller for you?
Of course they can claim whatever they want especially in a discussion as "meaningless" as who's the better footballer between generational greats. But I guess it's a bit boring if we just state our opinion and don't discuss it.
Btw I guess it looks like a direct response to you but it was more of a general question as you only claimed that Ronaldo is the greatest goalscorer
Hm. Müller was a lot more than just a goal scorer as well to be fair but not a bad answer. But does that mean that as a goalscorer/after his transformation he's on the same level as Müller for you?
So what makes Ronaldo actually so much better than Gerd Müller?
Discussions like this are subjective. We are not discussing science. Ronaldo has convinced the majority that he has been the best player in the world more times than Zidane did, even though Ronaldo was up against Messi. That says something (context has to be applied of course, which I did in my previous posts). Using the fact that Ronaldo achieved that is certainly worth more than us simply stating one was better than the other over and over again, even though they play in different positions and what they do is not the same. The most Ronaldo can do is to convince the majority of people that he is the best, and like I said, he did that more times than Zidane did. You even admit Ronaldo did much more for Madrid and are simply using one goal as your reason for him being better.@Raul Madrid can't be bothered to make another long post, so i'll just sum up my point: using the golden ball as the measure of a player's greatness is stupid because the golden ball is inherently flawed. To say that player A is better than player B because he won it more times is, in itself, wrong.
Nobody expects you to change your mind, that is not the point of discussions on here, but finding out what the consensus is on who is considered better is worth much more than us just repeating over and over again that one was better than the other and comparing them, even though they play in different positions and what they do is not the same.As for making a poll, no point. This is a man united fan board, not a real madrid fan board. And as for judging who was the better player overall, again, no point. I'm not gonna change my mind because other people have a different opinion on a subjective matter
I didn't say most, I said many. Most is in catalunia onlyThat is not true that in Spain that most consider Xavi and Iniesta better, Ronaldo is considered the 2nd best player in the world.
No there isn't.Of course there is a consensus, and there is definitely a consensus that Messi is the best player of the last decade. He is considered as one of the very best ever (ie top 3-4). The people that consider Ronaldo better than Messi at his best are a minority. That is not true that in Spain that most consider Xavi and Iniesta better, Ronaldo is considered the 2nd best player in the world. That is very much his reputation in the media and amongst fans.
Who tried to argue for that?I wish people could just agree that he is the greatest goalscorer of all time, but still a little bit off being the most talented player of all time. I'm happy to leave it at that and personally don't see a problem with it
@Raul Madrid can't be bothered to make another long post, so i'll just sum up my point: using the golden ball as the measure of a player's greatness is stupid because the golden ball is inherently flawed. To say that player A is better than player B because he won it more times is, in itself, wrong.
There absolutely is. I have lost count of the number of quotes from notable people who have called Messi better and the best of all time. Ferguson is one of the few who backs Ronaldo over Messi and Messi has more individual awards too, which were awarded to him because the consensus amongst the players, coaches and journalists was that Messi is better. Even a large amount of Madrid fans consider Messi better. What makes you say that the consensus isn't that Messi is better? If bothered, I could post so many quotes from notable people saying Messi is better.No there isn't.
That's not a consensus, it's a majority opinion and this is every bit as arrogant as it sounds, but the opinion of the captain of vanuatu isn't worth more than mine, or yours.There absolutely is. I have lost count of the number of quotes from notable people who have called Messi better and the best of all time. Ferguson is one of the few who backs Ronaldo over Messi and Messi has more individual awards too, which were awarded to him because the consensus amongst the players, coaches and journalists was that Messi is better. Even a large amount of Madrid fans consider Messi better. What makes you say that the consensus isn't that Messi is better? If bothered, I could post so many quotes from notable people saying Messi is better.
Someone ban this kid. How is Beckenbauer "better" than Ronaldo. You can't compare wingers to midfielders; let alone defenders. How are any of the rest "so much better". You provide no evidence and make outlandish claims whilst trying to make them out as facts.
Clearly, you like seeing large numbers when you press the alert button and are looking for attention.
It is the vast majority that consider him better though. I agree that all our opinions count and we are entitled to think whoever we want is the best, but most of the time, if not all of the time, you cannot prove that one player is factually better overall than another, for different reasons. Like with music, TV and movies etc, the consensus or majority opinion is the closest we will get to the "correct" answer of which or who is better.That's not a consensus, it's a majority opinion and this is every bit as arrogant as it sounds, but the opinion of the captain of vanuatu isn't worth more than mine, or yours.
There's a strong case for Ronaldo being the most complete goalscorer of all time and I think it's a good comparison to make. However, even cutting Ronaldo a bit of slack for playing for a less dominant team, I think Muller's international track record is far better:Never watch Muller played so I couldn't give my own opinion on that (past football footage doesn't count as they only shown the glimpse or best of him but not the whole or worst). By looking at their goalscoring stats, it seems they are equally impressive so maybe they are equal in terms of goalscoring. In terms of assist, Ronaldo has 3rd most assist in Europe (only behind Messi and Ozil?) over past 5 or 6 years I think, so I guess Ronaldo wins there.
But then we are comparing players from different era, so the best way is to look at their individual achievement in respect to the context (ballon D'or and Golden shoe awards etc)
Ballon D'or:
Ronaldo won 4 and finished 5 times as 1st runners up. His main rival is Messi, who is among top 3 GOAT.
Muller won 1, 1 times 1st runners up, 2 times 2nd runners up. His main rival is Eusebio, probably top 10 GOAT.
Ronaldo wins.
Golden shoe:
Ronaldo won 4 times
Muller won 2 times
Ronaldo wins.
In terms of club career:
Ronaldo won CL 3 times, league champion 4 times, domestic cup 3 times etc
Muller won CL 3 times, league champion 4 times, domestic cup 4 times etc
Tie.
In terms of international career:
Ronaldo won Euro 1 time, semi 1 time, WC semi 1 time. Scored 68 goals, currently all time top scorer for Portugal, country captain, currently all time top goalscorer in euro.
Muller won Euro 1 time, WC 1 time, 3rd place 1 time. Scored 68 goals, previously all time top scorer for Germany and in WC.
Tie
(In respective to context, Germany was much stronger team than Portugal, but their achievement was similar, with Muller slightly better)
Overall, Ronaldo is better than Muller I'd say, based on superior amount of individual awards won and worldwide recognition over their respective career, and superior assist stats (presumably). There's nothing much in between their goalscoring stats, records, club and international career though.
Ronaldo Winger until he joined Real Madrid then a Wide/Inside ForwardThere's a strong case for Ronaldo being the most complete goalscorer of all time and I think it's a good comparison to make. However, even cutting Ronaldo a bit of slack for playing for a less dominant team, I think Muller's international track record is far better:
Muller 62 caps, 68 goals
Ronaldo 136 caps, 68 goals
Muller 13 World Cup games, 14 goals
Ronaldo 13 World Cup games, 3 goals
Muller 5 games in World Cup/Euro semi-finals/finals, 7 goals
Ronaldo 5 games in World Cup/Euro semi-finals/finals, 2 goals (not counting his 10-minute cameo in the 2016 final)
Which is ok imo as long as the discussion is still productive. I mean I don't expect to come here, post a couple of posts and everyone suddenly changes their opinion to mine. But that doesn't mean we can't still gain something from the discussion.It will be discussed to death and there will never be a completely satisfactory answer.
Fair enough and it's true that C Ronaldo had more to his game during that period.If I answered that question with any confidence I'd be lying. Don't know much about Muller apart from his style of play, which Ronaldo c 2007-2011 had and more.
I wouldn't say there's much between them regarding assists. According to tm Müller has more than 100 assists in the Bundesliga for example. It's always a bit dodgy with assists for old players but it shouldn't be a big difference in the end. I'd say that's a tie.Never watch Muller played so I couldn't give my own opinion on that (past football footage doesn't count as they only shown the glimpse or best of him but not the whole or worst). By looking at their goalscoring stats, it seems they are equally impressive so maybe they are equal in terms of goalscoring. In terms of assist, Ronaldo has 3rd most assist in Europe (only behind Messi and Ozil?) over past 5 or 6 years I think, so I guess Ronaldo wins there.
I have to admit I have no idea where Eusebio came from here. His main rivals must've been Cruijff and Beckenbauer.But then we are comparing players from different era, so the best way is to look at their individual achievement in respect to the context (ballon D'or and Golden shoe awards etc)
Ballon D'or:
Ronaldo won 4 and finished 5 times as 1st runners up. His main rival is Messi, who is among top 3 GOAT.
Muller won 1, 1 times 1st runners up, 2 times 2nd runners up. His main rival is Eusebio, probably top 10 GOAT.
Ronaldo wins.
Problem is that the criteria changed. Back then scoring a goal in a weak league was worth as much as scoring a goal in the best league. This might have changed the outcome but I'd say fair enough.Golden shoe:
Ronaldo won 4 times
Muller won 2 times
Ronaldo wins.
In terms of international career:
I think that's a bit harsh on Müller. Winning the WC and EC and being the main goalscorer of his team, scoring in the main games and being regarded as the 2nd most important player in both tournaments I'd say is worth more. If Ronaldo had been THE outstanding player of his team I'd say fair enough but he "only" was one of his teams main players.Ronaldo won Euro 1 time, semi 1 time, WC semi 1 time. Scored 68 goals, currently all time top scorer for Portugal, country captain, currently all time top goalscorer in euro.
Muller won Euro 1 time, WC 1 time, 3rd place 1 time. Scored 68 goals, previously all time top scorer for Germany and in WC.
Tie
(In respective to context, Germany was much stronger team than Portugal, but their achievement was similar, with Muller slightly better)
I think it's very close between the two.Overall, Ronaldo is better than Muller I'd say, based on superior amount of individual awards won and worldwide recognition over their respective career, and superior assist stats (presumably). There's nothing much in between their goalscoring stats, records, club and international career though.
His last season as a more conventional winger was 2006/07. He's had the team built around his goalscoring since 2007.Ronaldo Winger until he joined Real Madrid then a Wide/Inside Forward
Muller Striker his entire career
Get a grip people ffs
This argument counts for something, but the post you quoted directly answered a post that stated there's not much between Ronaldo's and Müller's goalscoring statistics. And statistic-wise, Müller wins easily, as do several other forwards. Doesn't mean these stats can't be weighted and put in perspective, but since the argument was about statistics, @Gio's post is completely justified.Ronaldo Winger until he joined Real Madrid then a Wide/Inside Forward
Muller Striker his entire career
Get a grip people ffs
That's not a consensus, it's a majority opinion and this is every bit as arrogant as it sounds, but the opinion of the captain of vanuatu isn't worth more than mine, or yours.