Ballack went from being a great footballer to a butcher and a hatchet man at Chelsea.
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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That's an ongoing debate in Germany for many years.
My point of view:
(a) Schweinsteiger is the more influential player.
(b) The public opinion totally changed: In former years, Schweinsteiger was seen as talent who will never deliver and Ballack as boss. Now, it's totally different. Schweinsteiger is the man who has done it. He has won the CL and the world cup.
(c) Honestly? The public opinion in Germany is also influenced by the simple fact, that everybody LOVES Schweinsteiger. While Ballack was... well... tolerated as world class player.
And now other German speaking users will tell you that I am wrong in 3, 2,...
I do appreciate them, and I've always been a big Bosstian fan. At his best, he ran the midfield like clockwork but honestly, some go overboard with some of these recent players and their performances.
At chelsea he was deeper in midfield due to them having Lampard too. At bayern he was an attacking mid, but he was simply a more influential player. He held the german team together alone for many years while the others were stinking the place up.
Ballack didn't win the MoTM at the WC Final and IIRC, din't win the CL with any German club.
He held them together, but ultimately he couldn't lead them to victory, which is what Schweinsteiger did. That's the difference really, IMO at least. Both hugely influential players, but Basti had a man of the match performance against Messi and Argentina to win it for Germany. You could argue it was a better team then previous German teams with Ballack, but getting past that final hurdle means he was more influential for me.
That's only true for 2002 against some truely shit opponents and we actually played by far our best football in the tournament in the final when Ballack was suspended. No one held us together in 2004, we just sucked, and the whole team performed well in 2006, especially Frings in midfield who had a fantastic tournament. In 2008 we basically had one great game against Portugal and Ballack wasn't the reason why we played well. His goal in that game (which was a foul by him and we were lucky to get away with it) was crucial of course, but the clear man of the match was Schweinsteiger who was absolutely fantastic, scored the first goal and assisted the 2nd. The rest of the Euro 2008 were dire performances against minnows and a loss against the first great team we met.
At no point did Ballack ever inspire a team to play well overall the way Schweinsteiger did at his best (and hopefully will continue to do for a few more years). And that's no slight on Ballack at all. It's just Schweinsteiger has been truely fantastic since 2009 (when he wasn't injured, which he was a bit too much
).A) obviously I disagree
B) Teams win titles, winning such trophies doesn't make him the better player or am I going to have to tolerate some Cole vs Shearer argument? Or Gerrard vs Carrick? Let's be honest, Ballack never played in a team as good as the recent Bayern and germany team.
C) Can't add anything there.
Better player doesn't necessarily mean more influential... So if you're going for influential then I'd say Schweiny wins. Though I'm not sure if there is much between them as players at their best either.
To tell the full story about Schweinsteiger, he had to earn it. Very very very hard. He was the main scapegoat after the Euro 2012 and an utterly ridiculous media campaign made him out as the ultimate failure. The way he stepped up after it was truely special and he deserves every bit of recognition he finally gets. He was treated way worse than Ballack ever was, who despite never being loved, was always respected and admired as our only world class player in his generation.
How come Ballack was unloved?
He's not really a likeable guy. He also pissed off all non-Bayern fans in Germany when he moved to Bayern and then all Bayern fans when he moved to Chelsea. His return to Leverkusen at the end of his career turned into a disaster quickly. Not much to love about him really.
It does. Name me one player better than the other but isn't more influential?
I checked back regarding Ballack's game against Argentina in 2006 because I wasn't entirely sure how well I remember the actual game (I kinda was drunk and celebrating like crazy in one of the public viewing spots and never rewatched the game, so I could have been totally off). Anyway, kicker magazine grades players from 1 to 6 with 1 being the best grade. Ballack got a 3, Frings a 1. That's how I remember it as well, Frings was truely fantastic and the uproar in Germany after Italy used tv footage from the brawl after the game to get Frings suspended for the semifinal was huge, because many football fans believed that Frings was our best player so far in the tournament. Unless my slightly drunken memory and the most reliable German football magazine are totally useless, it's really hard to understand how you can use that game as an example for Ballack standing out, let alone believe it was better than Schweinsteiger in the final 2014, that's just silly.
This is a crazy way to compare players. So Ballack couldn't inspire his team to winning a match against Figo, Zidane, Makelele, Carlos, Raul while his teammates were Neuville, schneider and co and that makes him less influential? Really?
Sadly after taking that sad germany team to the final he didn't play due to suspension. He never played in a team of similar talent levels to the other big teams in europe when he was in germany. Football is a team sport and winning titles can't make a footballer more influential than another one.
Frings WAS the best player in that game, by far. Ballack didn't have that much of an impact.
Disclaimer: I was sober when watching it.
Disclaimer: I was sober when watching it.
Frings better than Ballack in 06? This convo can't go on :LOL:
No way. Ballack was a #2. Basti was a key component of the team that won the CL and the national team that won the World Cup. Michael Ballack was overrated in comparison.
You make it sound as if Ballack constantly inspired a team full of shit German players to overcome quality teams. The reality is that he saved us with moments of individual brilliance twice against clearly inferior teams in 2002. And he wasn't even the best German player in 2002 either, that was clearly Kahn who saved us even more than Ballack did, won the Golden Ball at the World Cup and finished 3rd at the Ballon d'Or.
I kinda hate this discussion, because it feels like I'm downplaying Ballack, which is the last thing I want to do. I rate him highly. The story you're trying to tell about Ballack is full of holes though.
I don't think smileys can fill those holes. Nice try though.
The Schweinsteiger thread gets used for all kind of discussions most of the time, except for actual Schweinsteiger performances.
The comaprision Schweini vs. Ballack could be discussed in a seperate thread i think.
The comaprision Schweini vs. Ballack could be discussed in a seperate thread i think.
You are sounding like one of my closest Bayern supporting friends. He's always mentioned the ridiculous media campaign blaming Bastian and Lahm for the failures at club and national team level - and how hard they had to work to disprove that failure label. Redemption is sweet.
Schweinsteiger is and was the better player than Ballack, there's no doubt in my mind.
It's not like there are many actual Schweinsteiger performances for United to discuss? Establishing that he's the best German midfielder since Matthäus/Sammer seems a fairly good way to fill this thread until he plays some more minutes.
2012 was a bad year for him, I still can't believe you couldn't beat that crap Chelsea team with the final being at home.
Neither can I.Carrick was more influential for united last season then Rooney, he's not a better player though. Ronaldo isn't always the most influential player for real Madrid, Di Maria was arguably that in the run in for their 13/14 season but he's obviously not as good as ronaldo. There are plenty of examples of it.
Anyway, how can one player not be more influential for a team then another if they won the champions league and world cup with him as the main man, while Ballack lost in all his finals basically? Meant he couldn't quite get past the last hurdle.
I do find it a bit funny that you're making it out as if he doesn't know what he's talking about when talking about germany and their past players, considering he's German? Correct me if you're also German, but I feel like you aren't.
I don't think he's German. He doesn't have to be to know about the World Cup in 2006 anyway. Here's an article in English about Frings and the incident that lead to his suspension for the semifinal:
The Guardian:
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/jul/04/worldcup2006.sport8
It seems like he neither watched the games nor read up on them. But I'm out now, it really is a bit too far offtopic from Schweinsteiger's performances this season
Those 3 EC/CL finals against Porto, United and Chelsea must have been real bummers - the way you guys lost them, I mean. Which one do Bayern fans in general class as their shittiest loss?
You guys have an excellent EC/CL record so it can't hurt so much, when taking everything into consideration that is. What is it 5 wins and 9 finals right? Phenomenal record.
Chelsea because it was at home. Nothing compares to that loss
.It's amazing that we never crossed paths in the final between 07/08 and 12/13 when one of us was in every final.
Aye, was supporting Bayern for that match too and it wasn't nice seeing feckin Chelsea conjure up a win somehow. Daylight robbery it was and who knows, we might have even gotten Hazard since Chelsea wouldn't have qualified for the CL the next season. Ah well, he probably would have still gone there or City anyway, as Fergie would have never paid the agent's demands.Chelsea because it was at home. Nothing compares to that loss
I happily decided to watch that game with my friends who are Chelsea fans coz never in a million years did I think I'd have to listen to their gloating at the end, seemed like the game was a mere formality before the kick off. One of the most bizarre CL winning campaign it has to be said.Chelsea because it was at home. Nothing compares to that loss
Only Germans can judge german footballers correctly? Ohk.
What holes? He was running a german team filled to the brim with players of less than stellar talent, and did it for nigh on near a decade. Plus ballack wasn't all individual moment of brilliance, saying that just boggles the mind. Let's put it this way, Ballack was in every international tournaments team of the tournament from world cup 02 till euro 08. That should tell you of the standard he played at.
Apparently we've signed Michael Ballack.
Obviously we look at it in total rather than breaking it into little bite size pieces. Obviously carrick at times has been a better player for united than rooney, but overall I think we all know who wins the battle. Similarly the Ronaldo/DiMaria scenario.
He wasn't the main man in the '14 world cup. He wasn't the main man in the CL run. Have no idea what you're on about there. Besides that because football is a team sport and you have to beat opponents. That's why a footballer can be more influential than another one and not win. Certain things are out of the control of individuals as this isn't golf. Sometime a long time ago SAF said that Gerrard was the most influential footballer in english football, Gerrard didn't win much. Does this mean Totti wasn't a more influential footballer than Yorke? Or that Thiago silva is trumped by Mascherano in defence? I'll let you decide.
No but I'd trust their opinion on who had the bigger influence on their national team as they have followed all of their games over the years and probably analyzed them a lot closer then neutrals
The problem with Germans is that we have 80 million national team coaches and each has another opinion...
Actually it is the same with Schweinsteiger - there is no player who splits the opinions so much in the German Bayern forums.
ok RooneyLegend is a massive Ballack fan, we get it. Let's move on.
I don't care about Ballack, I come into this thread to have updates on Schweinsteiger.
Just create a new thread, it will keep everyone happy and is a genuine good discussion point.
Just create a new thread, it will keep everyone happy and is a genuine good discussion point.
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