I think the single market might be equally important, without it doesn't solve the Irish border problem.For Clarke's amendment to be a compromise then Leavers would have to see some advantage in it, and I can't see that they would, I think it will get zero support from Leavers. I accept it might be a next best for Remainers, but that's not a compromise. If you are right however, and I am wrong, it will get some support from Leavers. We'll see
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- Thread starter Silva
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Why am I watching a clock on this live stream?
OK. Both sides can either sit there staring at each other or try something different.
The EU has continued to as the UK for what it wants and not what it doesn't want.
At least this attempts to get to that position.
Are these folks especially incompetent or have they just been forced to deal with an especially difficult political issue that previous generations of politicians would've fecked up similarly? I'm not at all surprised that they've handled this so badly but I've no idea whether that's just because I've been born into a few generations of shit politicians.
What's the story with the clock on the streams?
The Tories aren't going to allow a referendum and this amendment only applies to this Tory parliament.
The chamber will be empty for 30 minutes while the MPs vote.
That's the thing, that's not different.
Ah, I should've been able to work that out really. Cheers
No. I think that the whole issue is almost a perfect storm for division and difficulty.
Leaving the EU was always going to be mega difficult and almost uniquely divisive.
It has been handed appallingly badly but apart from Mrs Thatcher l cannot think of an era when it would not have been similarly catastrophic.
That’s a good question. No idea what the answer is.
Right. I've a lot of time for Clarke though, pity he's pretty past it, he might have turned the referendum in the first place.
So when was this last done as part of the Brexit process.
The tomfoolery started before the referendum, mind you. Cameron’s decision to have the referendum in the first place, to appease a bunch of cnuts like UKIP, was a historically stupid decision.
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When I was younger I wasn't too keen on him but he's one of the few I have got time for. Maybe that means the standard of politician has diminished so much .
Oh he tried very hard to make people see sense. However too many people thought he was just an old fuddy duddy who was stuck in the past.
He apparently referred the the PM's speech this afternoon as "a pantomime".
The negotiations should have all been handled by the senior civil servants, who are a constant presence and are extremely skilled. It's now turned into a party political issue, which shouldn't have happened.
The options are the same discussed by the government with the EU, all of them have an obvious problem, they don't fix the border issue. This isn't different it's just an attempt to delay and muddle things a little bit more.
From parliament or the public? I agree with regard to parlaiment but the leave voting public may be satisfied.For Clarke's amendment to be a compromise then Leavers would have to see some advantage in it, and I can't see that they would, I think it will get zero support from Leavers. I accept it might be a next best for Remainers, but that's not a compromise. If you are right however, and I am wrong, it will get some support from Leavers. We'll see
Maybe I'm just thinking if we're unhappy they should be too
God help us if this charlatan becomes Prime Minister! What a joke, let’s hope this is prevented!
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From parliament or the public? I agree with regard to parlaiment but the leave voting public may be satisfied.
Maybe I'm just thinking if we're unhappy they should be too
The moment May agrees to step down (thereby offering him a potential route to the job he craves) he miraculously decides he can suddenly support her deal.
What a surprise.
What a clown. Confirms that this last 3-6months has all been a big charade. Im sure the Honda workers will be so glad he stuck to his guns long enough for them to lose their jobs.
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Yeah that makes a lot of sense. Did the civil service have more influence in the past?
Bad for the country but good for his career.
I think it's fair to call him anti-British given his earlier convictions.
Anyone know when the results are due?
Was about to ask the same thing
Between 8:30 pm and 10 pm according to the Guardian
They were but they negotiate according to what they are told to negotiate. They can't decide the policy.
He doesn't give a fxxk for the Honda workers or any other for that matter.
As I previously mentioned he has been busy keeping his head down hoping nothing can stick on him.
It is all about posturing I am afraid.
When are results expected?
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WA is not going to get the required amount of votes with DUP bankrolled by dirty money and hard line Brexiteers within tory party, not a chance.
The civil service has always been responsible for actually doing the administrative work of the Government of the day, but of course, the senior civil servants carry the organisational memory. Politicians aren't permanent, senior civil servants are there for a very long time. I don't think their influence has waned, they basically run everything - but in the background. They are highly-skilled negotiators.
Ministers come and go - say someone is appointed to agriculture and fisheries and has no idea about those subjects. The Permanent Secretary of each department actually guides the politician and briefs them on a daily basis. Permanent Secretaries report directly to Parliament and the person above them (the Head of the Civil Service) is Secretary to the Cabinet - he knows exactly what's going on at the highest level.
Just to add to my post above - May did too much of the negotiation herself, IMO. The policy was "leave the EU". How that happened was open to negotiation, of course.
I've not ruled it out at all personally. May's aim has always been to leave MPs, including Labour, with a last-minute choice of her deal or no deal. The EU agreeing a short extension scuppered that for a bit, but it hasn't completely gone away yet.
Sounds like a new series of The Thick of It.