We essentially have that at the moment.
If we want an end to this mess we actually need a government (of whichever colour you prefer) with a strong majority.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
If we want an end to this mess we actually need a government (of whichever colour you prefer) with a strong majority.
Yeah, and as much as I am not a fan of the Tories its probably best that its them at this point. Labour have shot down Mays deal and Johnsons deal. If they were to get in and respect the vote of the Referendum as they say they will then surely that means another round of negotiations on a new deal with the EU and how Long would that take…...
Another hung parliament will ensure Brexit is resolved by a referendum.
Labour have said 9 months
3 months to agree a magical new deal that is resplendent with unicorns (well at least will let is access all EU trade deals and let us veto any future ones whilst we are free to run around and negotiate our own)
Then 6 months to run a referendum
I cant envisage the EU extending beyond June as thats when the new EU 7 year finance period starts ... so I dont think even if labour win (and i cant see that with corbyn) they would grant them enough time for that
If they want a referendum and they want a remain option and they dont want no deal it will probably have to be johnson (or mays) deal vs remain... which is actually what I think SNP and Libs have indicated as well - so provided corbyn gives up on negotiating a new deal that could happen I think probably by June (as long as he goes for the 12th December date)
If they delay the election to January I think the possibility of the EU granting an extension sufficient for a referendum goes down substantially.
A government (of whichever colour you prefer) pushing through an ideologic WA is only going to cause harm to the country. We don't officially have a hung parliament at the moment and as such, there is no reason for anyone to work with anyone else in a productive and meaningful manner.
The fact is you cannot take no deal off the table - Corbyn is a moron.
Can we call it squeaky bum time now?
not necessarily
Brexit and Conservatives that would be WTO or johnsons deal and no second referendum I think
add in the DUP and it would be No deal for sure
I'm not a fan of the Tories but it's probably best it's them at this point...because I'm a fecking masochist.
Can you please, please, for the love of fecking God stop saying "unicorn"?
"Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a unicorn."
Not from an overall perspective. I was speaking purely in isolation of getting Brexit done.
I stand by my statement.
Not from an overall perspective. I was speaking purely in isolation of getting Brexit done.
sure... just prove to me god is any more real than his unicorn plan and we have a deal
You're opening pandora's box there, let's not take this thread too off topic
No, because:
i)That's a terrible deal, even by current standards of terrible deals
ii)I'm an atheist
and
iii)Just stop it please. It's astonishingly irritating. It's like writing "Liverpoo" in the football forum.
Works for Ireland
How is that a fact? Parliament could easily legislate to prevent no deal by ruling that should the departure date arrive with no deal or extension agreed, then art. 50 must be revoked.
Your only argument against this would be down to parliamentary arithmetic. But this applies to every single other option too.
Corbyn is not the brightest tool on the box. But he is head and shoulders above Johnson and they are currently the only two possible candidates to lead our country. If you have a vote, then pick one. If your choice is Johnson, then you are backing no deal brexit. Picking Corbyn is the compromise option. I trust him to not ruin our country in pursuit of ideology. Can you say the same about Johnson?
I think there's a school of thought that suggests that if you removed government in all its forms, the initial turmoil would eventually settle into harmony and equilibrium.Works for Ireland
Someone on here will know better than me regarding that theory.
But that wouldnt bind the next parliament as parliament cant bind its successor... so if the EU grant an extension to lets say 31st Jan the only way to take no deal off is to leave before then with a deal or revoke ... if you had an election the threat of no deal is not removed as the new government can say we have a mandate for no deal (or johnsons deal with the default of no deal and revoke the previous legistlation.
I genuinely am not sure Parliament can actually legislate in a way that would bind its successor to ensure no deal could not happen
By the same token any future government can reverse a UK exit and take us back in. Or at least apply..
Can anyone articulate a coherent argument against a referendum on the actual deal that would take Britain out of the EU?
If you want Brexit, great, vote for it now that you know precisely what it means.
If you don't want Brexit, great, vote against it now that you know precisely what it means.
If you were unsure, now you have the actual terms so you can make an educated decision.
If it passes, there can be no doubt in parliament and it will move ahead much more smoothly. If it fails, we can all move on and get back to actually doing something.
If you want Brexit, great, vote for it now that you know precisely what it means.
If you don't want Brexit, great, vote against it now that you know precisely what it means.
If you were unsure, now you have the actual terms so you can make an educated decision.
If it passes, there can be no doubt in parliament and it will move ahead much more smoothly. If it fails, we can all move on and get back to actually doing something.
They can only apply, one does not simply just go back into the EU.
Well unless the EU are gagging for us to come back, they might relax the rules, that's pure speculation though and probably unlikely to happen.
As I said the only way to stop no deal is to revoke or agree a deal and this time next week you could be out, will legislation pass before this time next week?
You say the EU won't let this happen, but that is far more likely than parliament agreeing to revoking A50 if there is no agreement by a certain date. The UK are in the last chance saloon, uncertainty is becoming worse than no deal for the EU.
They are both hopeless as leaders of the country. I don't rate Johnson either but he may act the buffoon but is far brighter. Who knows what Corbyn's going to do, it changes every day. His proposed deal is ridiculous and also factually impossible. Yesterday McDonnell says Labour will enact the referendum result, another day they are backing remain, another day they may do something else. They are trying to please all sides and can't.
Edit:
- Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn has said he would back an election if the prime minister came to parliament on Monday and made a commitment to take the threat of a no deal Brexit off the table. He told ITV’s This Morning that Labour would support a parliamentary vote to hold an election ...
Can't you see from the above that Corbyn is a fool.
2nd edit:
Asked if he thought Boris Johnson would do that, Corbyn said:
He’s going to have to do that because that’s how Parliament works: we’ve got to hold him to account. I think a no-deal exit is very dangerous. If he comes on Monday and says that, OK.
Boris says I pwomise that the EU will agree a FTA - Corbyn - all wight then.
On which planet does he live.
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indeed - I genuinley think whichever side wins the brexit battle will loose the war
If we leave I think within a decade we will apply to rejoin as anything that goes wrong will be blamed on brexit and the remain side will unite and mobilise more effectivley (just like UKIP had been fostering the EU resentment for years the opposite will happen with a pro eu movement... I suspect the lib dems become the european democrats and rejoining becomes their core aim)
and equally if we do get a 2nd referendum and remain the anger will grow and grow within the brexit movement and either through the brexit party or a further move to the right of the conservatives we get a government elected on submitting article 50 - no referendum - no negotiations - straight to WTO
I agree with your second point, but in the former case I believe the continued and extensive years of negotiations as well as the "hangover" of coming out of the EU will be blamed by the leave camp and their media juggernaut on the EU which will be accepted just as the web of disinformation of the last decade has been.
In short, remain loses no matter what.
Well that's fantastic
Really? I wouldn't.
You said it's impossible in order to yet again paint Corbyn in a bad light, that's what I was picking up on. If the will is there, legislation can be passed very quickly.
Maybe so. The sensible thing to do would be a 2 year flextension. ie the UK could leave before the end of 2 years, but takes away the cliff edge to ease pressure on business.
I'm not sure that being a lying charlatan is a sign of intelligence. I don't see on what you base this assertion. I take his brashness as a sign of ignorance, and Corbyn's thoughtfulness as a sign of intelligence. But, each to their own, i guess.
He's trying to find compromise in a very difficult situation. I believe he deserves credit for this, not derision. Even if I don't agree with his stance.
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here. You may not be aware of the thoery that if Johnson had his deal agreed, he can actually go ahead and leave without a deal at the end of this month, through simply closing/blocking parliament again as the Benn act no longer applies.
Trying to stop that seems a noble effort, no?
I apologise if this post seems a bit confrontational. But I have honestly been losing patience with your constant snidey attacks on Corbyn, which come close to daily mail headlines in their inability to understand the nuances required in politics. Some things in life are difficult to reduce to a few words, nor should that be a requirement.
I have never heard a politician with who I fully agree. But as I said above. For now, It's Corbyn or Johnson. The choice seems so blindingly obvious to me that only one of those care about the people of this country and the wider world. The other is a lying charlatan.
Johnson, and the rest of the tories have been damaging our country for 9 years now. Brexit is all theirs too.
But when his ideology is fairness, it doesn't really compare with the damage of one whose ideology is dog-eat-dog, survival of the f̶i̶t̶t̶e̶s̶t̶ richest, it does make me wonder how that concern can be so high that you are prepared to overlook the actual damage aleady being done by the other side.
The UK have to be gone or stay by June, one way or another. I sincerely doubt they will go beyond January and almost certainly Macron won't. Another 2 years of this! You have to be kidding - the world does not revolve around the UK.
A compromise is not suggesting an impossibility, he deserves zero credit for that. It's either total stupidity or lying to con his supporters.
I have no regard for Johnson so I'm not pro-Johnson and criticise him just as much as Corbyn and May before Johnson.
The end of my point also shows it's the prospect of the EU not agreeing to a FTA by the end of the transition period that Corbyn is concerned with. Johnson, Corbyn or Father Christmas can't control that.
You do realise that Corbyn voted to trigger A50 and whipped his MPs under a Tory majority government who could have passed any agreement they liked. He also voted against and whipped his MPs to vote against May's deal which would have prevented no deal , which would have assured the UK stayed in the EU safety net until the magical solution was found which wouldn't have been -- now he's voted against this deal, which is obviously worse than May's but nevertheless is better than no deal but by doing so has actually kept no deal on the table.
Genuine question, why do people care about how long it takes as opposed to getting the right deal for the country? Just stop watching the news if it winds you up so much
There is no 'right' deal. Labour's position is essentially to remain so close to the EU that the UK won't become an independent trading nation. In effect we'd still essentially be in the EU but under much worse terms than we used to be.
The way I see it is that we either revoke or go out on something like Boris's deal where we have take some pain and reestablish ourselves. Labour's position would be the worst of all worlds.
Maybe. But we can't rule anything out, surely the last 3.5 years has shown that.
I want this whole embarrassing episode to finish asap, but not at the cost of Johnson's hard brexit, or worse, no deal brexit. The EU will continue showing patience, I hope. None of us know just how far that will stretch, but if our side weren't as obnoxious, it would be far easier for them.
Are you talking about the 'A' customs union thing here? He has always said that was a starting point, and I think it's fairly widely conceded that 1) The EU would gladly open discussions on this point(despite your long held assertion that they would not reopen the agreement) and 2) This position would very likely mean something between full CU/SM and Canada plus type model. You know, the sort of deal that was promised before the referendum. I wouldn't like that, but at least it's deliverable and what was voted for.
Was he really supposed to go against the democratic vote? Within weeks of the vote? BEFORE we knew(so clearly at least) that the tories literally had no plans? That is a strange thing to criticise him for. Can you imagine the press outcry had he whipped against art.50?
It was a terrible deal. The fault for which lies with May and her red lines. Not to mention the fact that had he helped to deliver brexit, people like you would never have stopped going on about it.
Why should he accept the no deal as a fallback position? That's the tories tactic, not his.
Look, I know we come from the same side regarding brexit. I just don't know what else Corbyn could realistically have done.
Here we are, 3.5 years later and we haven't left yet. If we do end up leaving on a hard or no deal brexit, then Corbyn's time will probably be up. But while he and others can still navigate the narrow path to remain, they deserve some credit and, imho, some support. It's not an easy task against what has mostly been a majority tory government.
Its building up to the perfect scenario for a default 'No deal' next week, with everyone blaming everybody else, "you first...No You first...".
Is it just me, but since the vote last week I've not heard one Brexiteer MP mention 'No deal', by default'. Sinister intent do you think, bit of misinformation going on, well we will see soon enough? Politicians so engrossed in their Machiavellian games the miss the obvious! Surely not!
Is it just me, but since the vote last week I've not heard one Brexiteer MP mention 'No deal', by default'. Sinister intent do you think, bit of misinformation going on, well we will see soon enough? Politicians so engrossed in their Machiavellian games the miss the obvious! Surely not!
Yeah but my question was more about why do people moan or worry that it takes too long? I mean the future of the country is at stake
Nothing can be ruled out but I believe patience is now at stretching point - this could go on for years and years until a majority government decides once and for all.
What changes now is that the EU have a new commission starting soon, they have a new parliament with MEPs waiting in the wings to take the UK MEPs places and they will have a new 7 year budget to agree next year, either the UK are in or out. Plus they want to push on with normal business, new trade deals with other countries and so on.
The EU would welcome the UK staying in the CU. Turkey are in a customs union but there is still a hard border. You can't have Britain doing their own trade policy being in the CU. You cannot have the same benefits of the SM without being in it. You can't be in the SM and not have FoM or ECJ jurisdiction. The EU of course noted Labour's proposal as a starting point but it should be clear by now that they will never ever compromise the 4 freedoms. Canada model is a FTA which will eventually be agreed, how far in the future is anybody's guess.
Any Brexit deal is a terrible deal for the UK, even if it was the mildest staying in the CU and SM because you'd still be in it in but without a vote, why leave? Plus I know the Brexieters are a bit on the slow side but they're not that stupid to tell them they've left but haven't really.
Nobody had any plans because very few of them realised what it meant. He couldn't have stopped A50 being triggered but he could have raised some objection or abstained wanting to know what the plan was before A50 was triggered not happily go along with it. Since May made the mistake of calling an election, he could have been more aggressive.
Firstly I don't believe he wants to remain but if he does then my biggest criticism of him is that he's so wishy-washy. He has no authority and aggressiveness, he's supposed to be in opposition of the weakest government in years and somehow manages to look worse than them.
Being on the same side re Brexit I'm thinking that of all the people these awful Tories could have faced it had to be someone as weak as Corbyn. They surely can't believe their luck.
Remaining in a customs union means that the UK will not become an independent trading nation which is pretty much the key reason for leaving. The 'credible' deal that Corbyn wants to negotiate is levels of bullshit.
Surely if we're better off economically under such a deal, and Labour have a mandate to negotiate that deal if they win an election, then it'd be better than inflicting economic pain upon ourselves for no real reason?
In fact, you could argue it'd be a fair compromise - Leave won the referendum and so Brexit happens, but since they only won narrowly and can't command a majority for any specific type of Brexit, we opt for the softest available. It won't satisfy Leavers, of course...but they've had more than enough time to come up with their own viable plan and secure nationwide approval for it.
I don't think a pretend Brexit is a compromise at all, it simply isn't Brexit. It's just drastically reducing our terms within the EU, not becoming an independent trading nation and becoming a rule taker instead of maker. I guess it would cap off the ludicrous stupidity that has been Brexit and might be fitting in that sense.
Don't labour want to put it in a referendum anyway so you'd have pretend Brexit vs Remain, hows that going to unite the nation?