Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[nickm]

This idea the only real Brexit is this or that, is precisely the problem that has split the country. It brooks no compromise.

And that’s why referendums are crap in our system, because there is no mechanism for compromise within it, unlike parliamentary decision making where nobody gets all they want, but everyone can swallow it.

 

[nickm]

Didn't Wales vote for brexit ?... Feel free to square that circle

What you mean the most integrated nation within the English led union? (I might wind up the Welsh with this, but arguably Scotland and N Ireland have far more politically devolved powers and a more forceful sense of their political identities ).

 

[JPRouve]

@Paul the Wolf are you like me surprised by the many people that seemingly didn't expect Macron to have that position? It's as if they didn't listen to what the MEDEF had to say about Brexit.

 

[stevoc]

Didn't Wales vote for brexit ?... Feel free to square that circle

Apparently that was down to the English as well. According to Oxford University anyway.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@Paul the Wolf are you like me surprised by the many people that seemingly didn't expect Macron to have that position? It's as if they didn't listen to what the MEDEF had to say about Brexit.

Non à un Brexit sans fin.

No I'm not surprised because they think all the countries will continue to have the patience to let the UK argue amongst themselves till the end of time, which they will given the chance.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

not necessarily

Brexit and Conservatives that would be WTO or johnsons deal and no second referendum I think
add in the DUP and it would be No deal for sure

The DUP won’t support the Johnson after throwing them under the bus with his deal. Nor will any of the MPs that have been kicked out and will run as independents. Labour will also lose all those government and Brexit backers as most standing down.

 

[SteveJ]

Kate Hooey is considering joining the Brexit Party, apparently.

 

[esmufc07]

Macron applying the pressure it seems.

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[4bars]

Depends totally on what you mean by "without a government", there would still have been the infrastructure of a modern state such as civil servants to administer and police/army/hospitals etc doing their jobs.

The idea that no government leads to a paradise of equality and freedom is a right wing nut job fantasy espoused by gun toting morons.

Of course I didn't mean been depleted of civil servants but just the parliament and legislation there

And no, anarchy is not right wing and nor left wing

 

[cyberman]

Macron applying the pressure it seems.

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About time. Its ridiculous that amendments are passed as if the EU has no say.
Im as anti Boris as can be but i was struck by how assuredly the extension vote was passed as if it was a given.

 

[4bars]

Didn't Wales vote for brexit ?... Feel free to square that circle

Mercia voted too. Try to romboid this squarecircle

 

[Pexbo]

Macron applying the pressure it seems.

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It’s a good move from Macron and the EU. Boris and his motley crew have been trying to call their bluff pushing for a no deal as if the EU couldn’t cope with it and couldn’t bare to deal with the scenario and would crumple and fold to any deal given that pressure.

Macron’s busting that myth and spoiling that negotiation tactic.

 

[DavidDeSchmikes]

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nsion-boris-johnson-election?CMP=share_btn_tw

During a meeting of EU diplomats, the French ambassador stood alone in arguing that it was not the right time to agree a three-month delay, in a move that will be welcomed in Downing Street.

Only after the vote on Monday should the EU decide to “go short, to push for ratification, or long to accommodate a general election”, the ambassador told the other member states, according to a diplomatic note.

Sources close to the French president, Emmanuel Macron, later claimed an extension was “not a given” and needed to be justified. “But we have nothing of the sort so far”, the source said. “Pressure must be maintained.”

 

[Kentonio]

I am genuinely confused, could one of our poll experts help me out here please? I’m looking at the poll that supposedly showed a majority saying violence towards MP was a price worth paying for their preferred Brexit outcome, and I’m damned if I can find it.

Poll is here: https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/1708631/Copy-of-England-16-Oct-AH.pdf

It seems to show a clear majority saying it wouldn’t be a risk worth taking. Am I just losing my marbles or something?

 

[sullydnl]

I am genuinely confused, could one of our poll experts help me out here please? I’m looking at the poll that supposedly showed a majority saying violence towards MP was a price worth paying for their preferred Brexit outcome, and I’m damned if I can find it.

Poll is here: https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/1708631/Copy-of-England-16-Oct-AH.pdf

It seems to show a clear majority saying it wouldn’t be a risk worth taking. Am I just losing my marbles or something?

Under the "some have said leaving the european union...." section 71% of leavers say it would be worth it, while under the "some have suggested that stopping Brexit..." section 58% of remainers say it would be worth it.

 

[Kentonio]

Under the "some have said leaving the european union...." section 71% of leavers say it would be worth it, while under the "some have suggested that stopping Brexit..." section 58% of remainers say it would be worth it.

Ah so it’s only if you take people self declaring as one or the other? Because the media have been saying a majority of people, which doesn’t seem to be the case at all from the totals in that poll.

 

[NWRed]

Of course I didn't mean been depleted of civil servants but just the parliament and legislation there

And no, anarchy is not right wing and nor left wing

I understand my wording was clumsy and open to interpretation but I was talking about things like the Patriot Movement in the US not anarchists.

 

[Adisa]

Quite unbelievable that the opposition can't form a government under these circumstances.

 

[horsechoker]

Quite unbelievable that the opposition can't form a government under these circumstances.

They could if it served their interests

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Quite unbelievable that the opposition can't form a government under these circumstances.

It would help if the Lib Dems were not yellow Tories.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Ah so it’s only if you take people self declaring as one or the other? Because the media have been saying a majority of people, which doesn’t seem to be the case at all from the totals in that poll.

It's also a piece of crap with awful methodology:

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[Sassy Colin]

You mean, the Grauniad tells...lies?

 

[sun_tzu]

It would help if the Lib Dems were not yellow Tories.

Or if comrade jezbollah wasn't embroiled in an antisemitism row and the most unpopular opposition leader since polls began.

 

[Smores]

Quite unbelievable that the opposition can't form a government under these circumstances.

Not really the unusual thing would be if they did. Even if it's a Tory alternative PM you're still relying on those hoping to be Tories again and they just won't intervene to that level.

 

[NinjaFletch]

You mean, the Grauniad tells...lies?

More badly reported an already poor piece of research

 

[NWRed]

It would help if the Lib Dems were not yellow Tories.

A far bigger help would be for Corbyn to stop trying to gain an electoral advantage by insisting on himself as temp PM and get behind Harman or Clarke (or both in a joint role seeing as they're Father and Mother of the HoC).

 

[Sweet Square]

A far bigger help would be for Corbyn to stop trying to gain an electoral advantage by insisting on himself as temp PM and get behind Harman or Clarke (or both in a joint role seeing as they're Father and Mother of the HoC).

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[NWRed]

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He can't do that if Johnson withdraws it, and it doesn't mean he wouldn't back a confirmatory ref on it if there were the numbers to pass an amendment on it.

 

[Sassy Colin]

More badly reported an already poor piece of research

But, the Guardian, that bastion, that stalwart of the Cafe?

 

[TheGame]

Man of the people Nigel Farage:

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[Sweet Square]

He can't do that if Johnson withdraws it, and it doesn't mean he wouldn't back a confirmatory ref on it if there were the numbers to pass an amendment on it.

But there isn't. Also a lot confidence your putting in someone who just voted to further Boris deal, why did Clarke vote this way ?

A national government of unity even with Corbyn as caretaker PM was always a pretty stupid idea but one without him is borderline delusional. The only way now to get another referendum is if the labour party wins the next election(Be it a majority or progressive alliance), anything else is just playing fantasy football but with politics.

 

[NWRed]

But there isn't. Also a lot confidence your putting in someone who just voted to further Boris deal, why did Clarke vote this way ?

A national government of unity even with Corbyn as caretaker PM was always a pretty stupid idea but one without him is borderline delusional. The only way now to get another referendum is if the labour party wins the next election(Be it a majority or progressive alliance), anything else is just playing fantasy football but with politics.

Why is it delusional, apart from the fact it's the only way Corbyn can try to get back remain voters from the Lib Dems before the next GE?

 

[Sweet Square]

Why is it delusional, apart from the fact it's the only way Corbyn can try to get back remain voters from the Lib Dems before the next GE?

So the only to win back these remain voters is letting a tory who voted to further Boris Brexit deal be caretaker PM ? Is there polling or anything to show this to be the case(genuine question) ?

 

[sun_tzu]

Why is it delusional,

Because Corbyn knows he has fek all chance in an election so will never give up his only chance to become pm

 

[MadMike]

I feel like Macron is just playing the bad cop, in a good cop - bad cop game. I think when push comes to shove he will grudgingly offer the extension. It will most likely be an offer of extension to exit on the 15th of November unless the deal is signed, in which case automatic extension till the 31st.

 

[sun_tzu]

I feel like Macron is just playing the bad cop, in a good cop - bad cop game. I think when push comes to shove he will grudgingly offer the extension. It will most likely be an offer of extension to exit on the 15th of November unless the deal is signed, in which case automatic extension till the 31st.

I thought no his main interest is pressuring Corbyn into accepting the election as he does not want to be having another extension for no clear reason in January

 

[NWRed]

So the only to win back these remain voters is letting a tory who voted to further Boris Brexit deal be caretaker PM ? Is there polling or anything to show this to be the case(genuine question) ?

No, I'm saying that the only way he can try to win back those remain voters is by insisting on being temp PM.

It ends in two ways

1. with the Lib Dems saying no (actually they haven't, they've said they would back anyone who could command a majority and have rightly said Corbyn can't because the ex tories would never back him). This way he gets to say the Lib Dems were willing to risk a no deal instead of back him and so undercut their remain credentials.

2. With him managing, somehow, to pull it off and win a vote of confidence. Then he gets to go into an election saying he stopped a no deal/guaranteed a confirmatory ref.

You didn't answer my question, why is it delusional?

 

[MadMike]

I thought no his main interest is pressuring Corbyn into accepting the election as he does not want to be having another extension for no clear reason in January

His main interest is exactly the same as of the rest of the EU; seeing a deal signed asap. And so he will play the bad cop to focus the minds of opposition parties on voting for the deal (under the theoretical threat of no extension and therefore no-deal Brexit) or opting for an election. But he doesn't want to encourage aimless delays. Some Labour MPs are too scared of an election and quite happy to sit in opposition and just vote everything down. However he doesn't want a no-deal Brexit either. Especially not one that will be blamed partly on him.

 

[NWRed]

His main interest is exactly the same as of the rest of the EU; seeing a deal signed asap. And so he will play the bad cop to focus the minds of opposition parties on voting for the deal (under the theoretical threat of no extension and therefore no-deal Brexit) or opting for an election. But he doesn't want to encourage aimless delays. Some Labour MPs are too scared of an election and quite happy to sit in opposition and just vote everything down. However he doesn't want a no-deal Brexit either. Especially not one that will be blamed partly on him.

His main interest is on looking to be tough on the UK for his domestic audience.

 

[Sweet Square]

No, I'm saying that the only way he can try to win back those remain voters is by insisting on being temp PM.

It ends in two ways

1. with the Lib Dems saying no (actually they haven't, they've said they would back anyone who could command a majority and have rightly said Corbyn can't because the ex tories would never back him). This way he gets to say the Lib Dems were willing to risk a no deal instead of back him and so undercut their remain credentials.

2. With him managing, somehow, to pull it off and win a vote of confidence. Then he gets to go into an election saying he stopped a no deal/guaranteed a confirmatory ref.

You didn't answer my question, why is it delusional?

A unity government without Corbyn is delusional because it destroys what little legitimacy Corbyn and the Labour Party have left. The role of the caretaker has always been the leader of the opposite. To give way to a tory(That again just voted to further Boris deal, why doesn't that rule out Clarke for the Lib Dems ?)and then go campaigning asking the British public to vote for you as PM, is well delusional. Plus there aren't the number in the house to get a confirmatory referendum, there just isn't. Plus there seems to be nothing to suggest it would win back voters. Again fantasy football politics.


Also any national unity government be it with Corbyn as caretaker or not just plays into the ''people vs parliament'' schtick. A general election(Which results in some form of Labour government) is the only way at the moment we can try to get out of this mess.