Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Oscie]

The thing that gets me is the pretense that an utter capitulation to the hard-Brexit nutters was the only option open to Labour.

Yes the country voted to leave the EU but agreeing that it voted to rip itself from the SM and CU and it was an overwhelming endorsement to end freedom of movement - just because Nigel said so - is at best disingenuous. There's been no effort either by Labour or the Tories to build a consensus on this. I saw a Tweet by a commentator recently that said the problem post-referendum is that the 52% has been revised up to 100% and the 48% has been revised down to 0%. When you think of the damage Brexit will do to Labour's core support then the only reason why I can think of Labour having the position they hold is to benefit from the chaos the govt will be blamed for. In itself it's absolutely fecking horrible to think the party is willing to do that.

 

[Mockney]

The whole “left eating itself whilst the right consolidates power” thing is just so fecking exhausting. Physically and emotionally. I’m so, so tired of arguing about it. If Trump potentially appointing a SCOTUS that could define American politics for decades, even reversing the likes of Roe vs Wade isn’t proof enough that trendy ideological activism achieves feck all in the real world, and only serves to throw the truly worst marginalised under the bus in the name of chin stroking faux socialist (and super white) bro-wankery, I don’t know what will.

I want Corbyn to succeed. I want Bernie to be right. I want a fairer, free-er, better society, but all I can see is things getting inexorably - and potentially irrevocably - worse, because no one wants to concede a fecking inch in the process of getting there.

Maybe this is how the Right win? By utterly demoralising us to the point of indifference? By convincing us to never compromise and unite behind the best of our beliefs, when snipping, slamming and shaming each other for the minutiae of our differences is so much easier, and more fleetingly fulfilling.

feck the world, I wanna get off. Where the good drugs at? @Dwazza

 

[berbatrick]

The whole “left eating itself whilst the right consolidates power” thing is just so fecking exhausting. Physically and emotionally. I’m so, so tired of arguing about it. If Trump potentially appointing a SCOTUS that could define American politics for decades, even reversing the likes of Roe vs Wade isn’t proof enough that trendy ideological activism achieves feck all in the real world, and only serves to throw the truly worst marginalised under the bus in the name of chin stroking faux socialist (white!) bro-wankery, I don’t know what will.

I want Corbyn to succeed. I want Bernie to be right. I want a fairer, buster, better society, but all I can see is things getting inexorably - and potentially irrevocably - worse, because no one wants to concede a fecking inch.

Maybe this is how the Right win? By utterly demoralising us to the point of indifference? By convincing us to never compromise and unite behind the best of our beliefs, when snipping, slamming and shaming each other for the minutes of our differences is so much easier, and more fleetingly fulfilling.

I have the answer for you: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Posadism#Enthusiasm_for_nuclear_holocaust

 

[Oscie]

The whole “left eating itself whilst the right consolidates power” thing is just so fecking exhausting. Physically and emotionally. I’m so, so tired of arguing about it. If Trump potentially appointing a SCOTUS that could define American politics for decades, even reversing the likes of Roe vs Wade isn’t proof enough that trendy ideological activism achieves feck all in the real world, and only serves to throw the truly worst marginalised under the bus in the name of chin stroking faux socialist (and white) bro-wankery, I don’t know what will.

I want Corbyn to succeed. I want Bernie to be right. I want a fairer, buster, better society, but all I can see is things getting inexorably - and potentially irrevocably - worse, because no one wants to concede a fecking inch.

Maybe this is how the Right win? By utterly demoralising us to the point of indifference? By convincing us to never compromise and unite behind the best of our beliefs, when snipping, slamming and shaming each other for the minutes of our differences is so much easier, and more fleetingly fulfilling.

I think the right win because they're less concerned with political purity and probably more pragmatic. It's easier to win an election from the right because your core support isn't going to hold you up to near-impossibly high standards. There were far more people from the left who refused to vote for Clinton because she wasn't the perfect liberal than there were those on the right who wouldn't vote for Trump because he wasn't a perfect conservative. The left seem impressed with their own virtuousness and often don't seem to notice that whilst they're busy patting themselves on the back the right is winning elections and their lives are being made worse as a result.

In this country I think opposition has become infectious. Especially those who felt alienated from the Blair years, all they've really known is opposition and my fear for the Labour movement is that increasingly it seems as if they're happy there. As long as they have their rallies and their protests and their hashtags I honestly don't think they'd swap that for an election win. Using the party as a protest voice, like a graduate degree course that follows on from being a Student Union member. No real expectation of getting anything done, just utter contentment if people are aware how unhappy you are at what's being done.

Within 5 years the Labour party conference will look like a phase 2 NUS meeting, passing motions condemning Manspreading and voicing a view on the plight of migrating geese.

 

[berbatrick]

There were far more people from the left who refused to vote for Clinton because she wasn't the perfect liberal than there were those on the right who wouldn't vote for Trump because he wasn't a perfect conservative.

Clinton: 48.02%
Trump: 45.93%

Gary Johnson, Libertarian: 3.27%
Evan McMullin, GOP: 0.53%

Jill Stein, Green: 1.06%

So the right was more fragmented, and together had 49.73 of the vote, while Hillary and Stein together had 49.08%.

(Adding smaller parties, it gets to 49.88 and 49.21 respectively.)

 

[Mockney]

I have the answer for you: https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Posadism#Enthusiasm_for_nuclear_holocaust

I’m largely of the opinion that history will always swing back and forth politically. A decade of Obama was always likely to yield a chance of a GOP Pres, just as a decade of Labour was likely to favour a dynamic new (but still obviously awful) Tory like Cameron... The hope was usually that the status quo would be slowly but surely pushed toward progress. Which it almost always has been. Save for, you know, the whole Dark Ages thing.

The difference now, is that while Cameron had to skew his Party left to react to the new status quo of the Labour 90s (such as legalising Gay marriage, etc) the modern Right have just rejected the entire notion of that, in favour of the political equivalent of shit posting, in an attempt to simply write off any Democratic/Labour position as almost apocalyptically evil. Rather than concede even the slimmest chance of compromise.

And in retaliation to this...rather than fight fire with fire, the left have decided that our public face should be wet and vague and inoffensive (e.g. Corbyn’s stance on Brexit) whilst our private face vociferously and exclusively goes after anyone who dissents within our own ranks!... It’s fecking mad! But, cool, whatever. It’s apparenly the new normal. It’s better to let the Right destroy democracy in real time, than try and win in the “wrong” way. Mmm’Kay?

Let’s all march toward destruction, safe in the knowledge we had ideologically good intentions. At least we’re white, ey lads? They’ll come for us last.

 

[Oscie]

Wonder what the government will do when their 'Plan A (B-Z)' of hoping Europe agrees to kick the ball further down the road is rejected. It's been one long blag to see how long they can get away with it. Over 2 years is quite impressive actually, but then there isn't an opposition so maybe not that difficult. But crunch time soon. If May gets desperate an settles for a bad deal her party won't vote for it. If she settles for 'no deal' then hopefully Labour won't go for it. Though on that point I'm less confident. I think her own MPs are more likely to vote against a bad deal than Labour is to vote against no deal.

 

[C3Pique]

So what if Labour vote against no deal? The EU will consider us a third country at that point regardless of Labour's position on it.

It would be like voting to change the captain whilst rowing the lifeboats away from the Titanic.

 

[17 Van der Gouw]

Oh deary me.

Danny Dyer gives a poorly articulated and jumbled attempt at and outraged rant, and becomes a YouTube comments section hero.

Whatever side of the argument you're on, Danny Dyer must never be referred to as 'a legend.' Never.

 

[Sweet Square]

I’m largely of the opinion that history will always swing back and forth politically. A decade of Obama was always likely to yield a chance of a GOP Pres, just as a decade of Labour was likely to favour a dynamic new (but still obviously awful) Tory like Cameron... The hope was usually that the status quo would be slowly but surely pushed toward progress. Which it almost always has been. Save for, you know, the whole Dark Ages thing.

The difference now, is that while Cameron had to skew his Party left to react to the new status quo of the Labour 90s (such as legalising Gay marriage, etc) the modern Right have just rejected the entire notion of that, in favour of the political equivalent of shit posting, in an attempt to simply write off any Democratic/Labour position as almost apocalyptically evil. Rather than concede even the slimmest chance of compromise.

And in retaliation to this...rather than fight fire with fire, the left have decided that our public face should be wet and vague and inoffensive (e.g. Corbyn’s stance on Brexit) whilst our private face vociferously and exclusively goes after anyone who dissents within our own ranks!... It’s fecking mad! But, cool, whatever. It’s apparenly the new normal. It’s better to let the Right destroy democracy in real time, than try and win in the “wrong” way. Mmm’Kay?

Let’s all march toward destruction, safe in the knowledge we had ideologically good intentions. At least we’re white, ey lads? They’ll come for us last.

What this is shite your on about ?

 

[Fully Fledged]

There are people on here that are saying that if you vote for Labour you have no say in Brexit. It's Bollocks. You have to look at where you live and which party are best placed to challenge the Tories. If the Lib Dems stand a chance of winning your seat then by all means vote for them but if you live in an area that is Labour or Tory any right minded person has to vote labour. If for no other reason than Cameron brought us to the position we are in.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I’m largely of the opinion that history will always swing back and forth politically. A decade of Obama was always likely to yield a chance of a GOP Pres, just as a decade of Labour was likely to favour a dynamic new (but still obviously awful) Tory like Cameron... The hope was usually that the status quo would be slowly but surely pushed toward progress. Which it almost always has been. Save for, you know, the whole Dark Ages thing.

The difference now, is that while Cameron had to skew his Party left to react to the new status quo of the Labour 90s (such as legalising Gay marriage, etc) the modern Right have just rejected the entire notion of that, in favour of the political equivalent of shit posting, in an attempt to simply write off any Democratic/Labour position as almost apocalyptically evil. Rather than concede even the slimmest chance of compromise.

And in retaliation to this...rather than fight fire with fire, the left have decided that our public face should be wet and vague and inoffensive (e.g. Corbyn’s stance on Brexit) whilst our private face vociferously and exclusively goes after anyone who dissents within our own ranks!... It’s fecking mad! But, cool, whatever. It’s apparenly the new normal. It’s better to let the Right destroy democracy in real time, than try and win in the “wrong” way. Mmm’Kay?

Let’s all march toward destruction, safe in the knowledge we had ideologically good intentions. At least we’re white, ey lads? They’ll come for us last.

There is no win on Brexit. The minute that Cameron set the referendum the country was damned. I'm probably going to lose my job as I work in the Automotive industry. Even though I as I said my job is probably gone I don't blame labour. All of my blame lands front and centre with the Tories. If they hadn't started this we wouldn't be in this position.

 

[Mockney]

What this is shite your on about ?

How many non-white people d’you reckon had the righteous ideological privilege of abstaining from the Trump or Brexit votes? Considering the largest demographic bulk that voted Dem in 2016 was black women, and the biggest Remain epicentres were Urban multicultural cities, I’d say it’s a pretty fair bet that those most at risk from the potential Right Wing tyranny we’re edging toward, voted near unanimously for their own preservation, over some vanilla hipster ideal of a future Socialist paradise...

Conversely, I’d be pretty confident the majority of those who abstained from either, or voted for the likes of Jill Stein, or Harambe, or just, like, “didn’t want to engage in the whole Neoliberal political circus!” etc, were near universally woke white dickheads who were more than happy to lose a battle they were never going to suffer from, throwing a slew of more vulnerable minorities under the bus in the processs, in the name of proving some smug nebulous 6th form point about politics ..(They’re all the same man!! Except when actual fascists get to chose life long law makers, but whatever!).. and then arguing how this is actually a really good platform for a new future leftist utopia... if only we can shame everyone right of us into compliance...and also actually win back power somehow. But let’s not worry about that too much for another 20 years or so. Because (and here comes the rewind!) we’re largely white, and don’t urgently need to worry about it..

And I realise this may seem to you like a subtle paen for the good ol’ days of Blairite centrism. But it’s really not. I’ve been on the “new left” Corbynist side since near enough it’s befinings. I want what you want. But it’s not working, is it? I mean, it’s really really not!

And I just can’t imagine how anyone who isn’t comfortably white could look at our current reality of open aggy prejudice and friggin’ American baby jails, and think “this is still good.. it’s gonna turn around any minute now, if only we can call Graham Linehan a cnut enough”

 

[Fully Fledged]

Oh deary me.

Danny Dyer gives a poorly articulated and jumbled attempt at and outraged rant, and becomes a YouTube comments section hero.

Whatever side of the argument you're on, Danny Dyer must never be referred to as 'a legend.' Never.

Anyone who outs Cameron as a wanker live on TV is a legend for that moment. He might be an arsehole before and after the fact but for that split second he bossed it.

 

[Fully Fledged]

How many non-white people d’you reckon had the righteous ideological privilege of abstaining from the Trump or Brexit votes? Considering the largest demographic bulk that voted Dem in 2016 was black women, and the biggest Remain epicentres were Urban multicultural cities, I’d say it’s a pretty fair bet that those most at risk from the potential Right Wing tyranny we’re edging toward, voted near unanimously for their own preservation, over some vanilla hipster ideal of a future Socialist paradise...

Conversely, I’d be pretty confident the majority of those who abstained from either, or voted for the likes of Jill Stein, or Harambe, or just, like, “didn’t want to engage in the whole Neoliberal political circus!” etc, were near universally woke white dickheads who were more than happy to lose a battle they were never going to suffer from, throwing a slew of more vulnerable minorities under the bus in the processs, in the name of proving some smug nebulous 6th form point about politics .... and then arguing how this is actually a really good platform for a new future leftist utopia... if only we can shame everyone right of us into compliance...and also actually win back power somehow. But let’s not worry about that too much for another 20 years or so. Because (and here comes the rewind!) we’re largely white, and don’t urgently need to worry about it..

And I realise this may seem to you like a subtle paen for the good ol’ days of Blairite centrism. But it’s really not. I’ve been on the “new left” side for the last 5 or so years, at least. I want what you want. But it’s not working, is it? I mean, it’s really really not!

And I just can’t imagine how anyone who isn’t comfortably white could look at our current reality of open aggy prejudice and friggin’ American baby jails, and think “this is still good.. it’s gonna turn around any minute now, if only we can call Graham Linehan a cnut enough”

If you want to blame anybody for this blame kids. We all know that most millennials would have voted remain but a large proportion of them just couldn't be bothered to get out and vote. This is the main reason that the referendum wen't the way it did.

 

[Silva]

If you want to blame anybody for this blame kids. We all know that most millennials would have voted remain but a large proportion of them just couldn't be bothered to get out and vote. This is the main reason that the referendum wen't the way it did.

[LSE] found 64 per cent of those young people who were registered did vote, 65 per cent of 25-to-39-year-olds and 66 per cent of those aged between 40 and 54.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

@Stanley Road

As a matter of interest I just looked up the 2015 GE result for the constituency I lived in before I left.
If I had voted for Cameron/Tories - the Tory majority would have increased by 1 vote to 24116
If I had voted for Labour - decreased to 24114
If I had voted for another party - same majority of 24115.

So whatever I would have done would not have made an iota of difference and highlights the democratic system that exists in the UK. Yeah right!

Edit: I also checked the last time Labour won that seat - surprise! It never has!

 

[Mockney]

If you want to blame anybody for this blame kids. We all know that most millennials would have voted remain but a large proportion of them just couldn't be bothered to get out and vote. This is the main reason that the referendum wen't the way it did.

I don’t really buy that argument tbf. Any more than I buy the whole “Trump is all Hillary’s fault for failing to convince enough people to not be horrendously dumb and selfish”

Young people are always a hard demographic to snare, in any era. It’s not like teens in the 60s and 70s were any more politically active, vote wise. They were all about not doing that shit. And then they grew up and voted for Reagan and Thatcher.

Trouble is old people vote, and there are more old people than ever now. Basically what we really need to do is kill all the old people. Logan’s Run style.

 

[Fully Fledged]

2% makes a big difference. I'm in the last one 40-54 and voted remain. I honestly can't see the case to vote any other way.

 

[Silva]

Trouble is old people vote, and there are more old people than ever now. Basically what we really need to do is kill all the old people. Logan’s Run style.

More specifically, rich people living longer than poor people. So it should be it a means-tested kafkaesque version where rich old people have to go through a bureaucratic nightmare before they die, as poor people have to if they want to live.

 

[Silva]

2% makes a big difference. I'm in the last one 40-54 and voted remain. I honestly can't see the case to vote any other way.

No it doesn't. 2% in any age group doesn't make up for 2% nationwide, even if young people were a hivemind who cast the exact same vote, which they aren't/don't.

 

[Fully Fledged]

I don’t really buy that argument tbf. Any more than I buy the whole “Trump is all Hillary’s fault for failing to convince enough people to not be horrendously dumb and selfish”

Young people are always a hard demographic to snare, in any era. It’s not like teens in the 60s and 70s were any more politically active. They were likely less if anything!

Trouble is old people vote, and there are more old people than ever now. Basically what we really need to do is kill all the old people. Logan’s Run style.

How old is old? I'm post 50 and will be free thinking until the day I die. I want a country made up of a mix of cultures. I want a country made up of a mix of genders. I want a country that celebrates life however it decides to manifests itself.

 

[Silva]

How old is old?

persons age x2-7

 

[Fully Fledged]

No it doesn't. 2% in any age group doesn't make up for 2% nationwide, even if young people were a hivemind who cast the exact same vote, which they aren't/don't.

I will concede your point. I know some young people who brought into the idea of Brexit. It's not all about age but they do recon that people change their political opinion depending on age. Personally I knew what was right when I was 18 and I know what is right when I'm 52. My politics hasn't really changed.

 

[JPRouve]

How old is old? I'm post 50 and will be free thinking until the day I die. I want a country made up of a mix of cultures. I want a country made up of a mix of genders. I want a country that celebrates life however it decides to manifests itself.

52.

 

[Fully Fledged]

52.

feck I'm gone then that's my age. If it helps the future of society I will accept my fate.

Yeah right. Like feck I will.

 

[caid]

I'm not sure our political systems are able to allow left leaning policies to last for any period of time. Barrack Obama seemed to have a nightmare enacting any policy and they seemed to be watered down by the time they got through. Its taken Trump a year or two to bury most of that. Cant help but suspect Trumps tax cuts and judges will take decades to remove if they ever are.

 

[Mockney]

How old is old? I'm post 50 and will be free thinking until the day I die. I want a country made up of a mix of cultures. I want a country made up of a mix of genders. I want a country that celebrates life however it decides to manifests itself.

Old isn’t just an age, tbf. You can be an old younger, and a young oldie... I mean. the biggest modern progressive politicos in both the UK and US atm are two saggy old Baby boomer hippies.

The kind of “old people” I’d select for social euthanasia, are those with irrevocable conservative nostalgia blindness. In an ideal world, those who get angry at there being women in the new Star Wars films, for example. But that’s just me.

 

[Kentonio]

The problem is that it is deeper underlying issues that created these crises (Brexit and Trump). So beating them without addressing inequality (for example) will just mean we get a worse repeat sooner or later.

You have to time your battles though. I agree in principle, without a rebalancing the problems will just reoccur, but right now we’re facing a couple of cliff faces and we don’t have room to try and steer towards some bigger target.

 

[horsechoker]

I'm not sure our political systems are able to allow left leaning policies to last for any period of time. Barrack Obama seemed to have a nightmare enacting any policy and they seemed to be watered down by the time they got through. Its taken Trump a year or two to bury most of that. Cant help but suspect Trumps tax cuts and judges will take decades to remove if they ever are.

Since the turn of the century the Democrats have only had a majority in the House a few times, it's difficult to get anything remotely progressive through a Republican dominated House.

 

[4bars]

Bollox. If you believe that, I feel sorry for you.

Errr...you really believe that UK can have better deals alone tan inside the EU? ok

Has no choice but to accept EU regulation. Not sovereign.

As will have no choice to accept EU regulation if he wants to sell in EU. Also read about the Brussels effect in worldwide trading regulation

And buying?

EU will have to adapt to UK regulations. But again, read about the Brussels effect in worldwide trading regulations. Also, EU exports to UK are minimal compared to UK exports to EU.

The regulations benefit the big corporations, and the consumer loses out.

Irrelevant. Whoever benefits (arguable) does not matter. Regulations will be there, like it or not

Non EU immigration is not a problem.

Allrighty so below this...

So?
What if a Brits have to take pay cuts because the EU national is willing to work for less pay?

I guarantee that non-EU nationals immigrants are more, in average they work for less than EU nationals, lots of them don't pay taxes as they are illegal and more likely to stay forever in UK than EU nationals. Tell me then why non EU are not a problem but EU immigrants are the problem when they are less of a problem in your arguments than non EU immigrants.

See above.

See in it, still no real arguments but nice try

 

[Mockney]

More specifically, rich people living longer than poor people. So it should be it a means-tested kafkaesque version where rich old people have to go through a bureaucratic nightmare before they die, as poor people have to if they want to live.

Or - and hear me out here - we put them all into a battle royal situation where everyone over 60 has to fight over a limited number of “spaces”.... meaning the lazy fat Trumpian rich would have to buck up, or risk losing their supremacy to anyone whose done anything more strenuous than milking a cow.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Wonder what the government will do when their 'Plan A (B-Z)' of hoping Europe agrees to kick the ball further down the road is rejected.

To be fair that was the approach used by the EU in response to the Greek Debt Crisis. So at least they will be familiar with our tactics.

 

[matherto]

Oh deary me.

Danny Dyer gives a poorly articulated and jumbled attempt at and outraged rant, and becomes a YouTube comments section hero.

Whatever side of the argument you're on, Danny Dyer must never be referred to as 'a legend.' Never.

The thing is, poorly articulated, jumbled attempt and outraged rant describes Brexit to a tee so it's quite fitting really.

 

[Cheesy]

I’m largely of the opinion that history will always swing back and forth politically. A decade of Obama was always likely to yield a chance of a GOP Pres, just as a decade of Labour was likely to favour a dynamic new (but still obviously awful) Tory like Cameron... The hope was usually that the status quo would be slowly but surely pushed toward progress. Which it almost always has been. Save for, you know, the whole Dark Ages thing.

The difference now, is that while Cameron had to skew his Party left to react to the new status quo of the Labour 90s (such as legalising Gay marriage, etc) the modern Right have just rejected the entire notion of that, in favour of the political equivalent of shit posting, in an attempt to simply write off any Democratic/Labour position as almost apocalyptically evil. Rather than concede even the slimmest chance of compromise.

And in retaliation to this...rather than fight fire with fire, the left have decided that our public face should be wet and vague and inoffensive (e.g. Corbyn’s stance on Brexit) whilst our private face vociferously and exclusively goes after anyone who dissents within our own ranks!... It’s fecking mad! But, cool, whatever. It’s apparenly the new normal. It’s better to let the Right destroy democracy in real time, than try and win in the “wrong” way. Mmm’Kay?

Let’s all march toward destruction, safe in the knowledge we had ideologically good intentions. At least we’re white, ey lads? They’ll come for us last.

Much as I largely agree with a lot of what you're saying, I think one of the major problems here is that ultimately economically we've remained in the same place as we were back the Thatcher/Reagan era. Cameron may have skewed his party to the left socially, but economically they were essentially just a friendlier version of peak Thatcherism. And Blairism can kind of be accused of being that as well. And yeah, if I'd have been in the US, I'd have voted for Hilary in an instant cause I think things like SCOTUS were too important to sacrifice, but at the same time I can understand why some people are frustrated with the idea of political changes without any genuine economic change. Because you can implement as much social change as you want, but economic change is often what ultimately changes things for the better in the long-term. But aye, don't necessarily disagree with you about Corbyn on Brexit.

 

[Mockney]

Much as I largely agree with a lot of what you're saying, I think one of the major problems here is that ultimately economically we've remained in the same place as we were back the Thatcher/Reagan era. Cameron may have skewed his party to the left socially, but economically they were essentially just a friendlier version of peak Thatcherism. And Blairism can kind of be accused of being that as well. And yeah, if I'd have been in the US, I'd have voted for Hilary in an instant cause I think things like SCOTUS were too important to sacrifice, but at the same time I can understand why some people are frustrated with the idea of political changes without any genuine economic change. Because you can implement as much social change as you want, but economic change is often what ultimately changes things for the better in the long-term. But aye, don't necessarily disagree with you about Corbyn on Brexit.

Oh, right back at you. I agree that the increasing economic disparity of the latter 20th century is directly responsible for the mess we’re in. And that both Brexit and Trump are in some way the karmic consequence of 50+ years of neoliberal politics..... I just don’t think “let’s let the fascists burn it all down to prove a point” is the best way to combat it.

Even less so the whole “I’d rather let them, than do anything that doesn’t align 100% with my university drum circle mentality”

We’re 2 years in, and already at baby jails FFS.

 

[Cheesy]

Oh, right back at you. I agree that the increasing economic disparity of the latter 20th century is directly responsible for the mess we’re in. And that both Brexit and Trump are in some way the karmic consequence of 50+ years of neoliberal politics..... I just don’t think “let’s let the fascists burn it all down to prove a point” is the best way to combat it.

Even less so the whole “I’d rather let them, than do anything that doesn’t align 100% with my university drum circle mentality”

We’re 2 years in, and already at baby jails FFS.

Aye, of course. Would struggle to disagree with any of that. As I say, would've opted for Hilary in an instant had I been in the US, for all her flaws.

But I do think the problem is that for a lot of people, a Clinton presidency (and any UK equivalent) just didn't equal any sort of genuine economic improvement for them, because Hilary/Bill/Blair/Miliband/the Honey Monster were all basically arguing for watered down versions of what was already in place. Which would maybe placate the public without solving anything. Hence why so many people have ended up being disillusioned and disenfranchised. And yeah, I agree they'd have been better off voting for Hilary. But then I'm also saying that from the privileged position of a neutral observer who wouldn't really be impacted positively or negatively by her being in power. And if you're someone who's been a bit fecked economically either way, I can see why a politician saying the right stuff or being friendly diplomatically would mean feck all to you. Much as I agree it's important.

 

[Mockney]

I mean yeah, of course, but I also can’t help but feel that phrasing the election as some zero sum game the poor working class had no option but to be suckered by, is not only super patronising, but ignores the fact that a sizeable amount of working class minorities somehow managed to not be suckered... meaning we’re basically making excuses just for the whites, on the basis that they’re not only solely representative, but also implicitly a lot dumber than the average working class voter... Whilst also tacitly trying to justify their racism as understandable, in a way that would never be afforded to economically similar non-whites. Desperate working class black guys get shot, more than they get a sympathetic contextualisation of their faults.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How many non-white people d’you reckon had the righteous ideological privilege of abstaining from the Trump or Brexit votes? Considering the largest demographic bulk that voted Dem in 2016 was black women, and the biggest Remain epicentres were Urban multicultural cities, I’d say it’s a pretty fair bet that those most at risk from the potential Right Wing tyranny we’re edging toward, voted near unanimously for their own preservation, over some vanilla hipster ideal of a future Socialist paradise...

Conversely, I’d be pretty confident the majority of those who abstained from either, or voted for the likes of Jill Stein, or Harambe, or just, like, “didn’t want to engage in the whole Neoliberal political circus!” etc, were near universally woke white dickheads who were more than happy to lose a battle they were never going to suffer from, throwing a slew of more vulnerable minorities under the bus in the processs, in the name of proving some smug nebulous 6th form point about politics ..(They’re all the same man!! Except when actual fascists get to chose life long law makers, but whatever!).. and then arguing how this is actually a really good platform for a new future leftist utopia... if only we can shame everyone right of us into compliance...and also actually win back power somehow. But let’s not worry about that too much for another 20 years or so. Because (and here comes the rewind!) we’re largely white, and don’t urgently need to worry about it..

And I realise this may seem to you like a subtle paen for the good ol’ days of Blairite centrism. But it’s really not. I’ve been on the “new left” Corbynist side since near enough it’s befinings. I want what you want. But it’s not working, is it? I mean, it’s really really not!

And I just can’t imagine how anyone who isn’t comfortably white could look at our current reality of open aggy prejudice and friggin’ American baby jails, and think “this is still good.. it’s gonna turn around any minute now, if only we can call Graham Linehan a cnut enough”

10/10. Would read again.

Also. I agree.

 

[Pexbo]

How many non-white people d’you reckon had the righteous ideological privilege of abstaining from the Trump or Brexit votes? Considering the largest demographic bulk that voted Dem in 2016 was black women, and the biggest Remain epicentres were Urban multicultural cities, I’d say it’s a pretty fair bet that those most at risk from the potential Right Wing tyranny we’re edging toward, voted near unanimously for their own preservation, over some vanilla hipster ideal of a future Socialist paradise...

Conversely, I’d be pretty confident the majority of those who abstained from either, or voted for the likes of Jill Stein, or Harambe, or just, like, “didn’t want to engage in the whole Neoliberal political circus!” etc, were near universally woke white dickheads who were more than happy to lose a battle they were never going to suffer from, throwing a slew of more vulnerable minorities under the bus in the processs, in the name of proving some smug nebulous 6th form point about politics ..(They’re all the same man!! Except when actual fascists get to chose life long law makers, but whatever!).. and then arguing how this is actually a really good platform for a new future leftist utopia... if only we can shame everyone right of us into compliance...and also actually win back power somehow. But let’s not worry about that too much for another 20 years or so. Because (and here comes the rewind!) we’re largely white, and don’t urgently need to worry about it..

And I realise this may seem to you like a subtle paen for the good ol’ days of Blairite centrism. But it’s really not. I’ve been on the “new left” Corbynist side since near enough it’s befinings. I want what you want. But it’s not working, is it? I mean, it’s really really not!

And I just can’t imagine how anyone who isn’t comfortably white could look at our current reality of open aggy prejudice and friggin’ American baby jails, and think “this is still good.. it’s gonna turn around any minute now, if only we can call Graham Linehan a cnut enough”

Crikey, someone cover Eboue’s eyes.

Great post mate.