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Part of what I was saying.Seriously? That’s how you’d categorise Labour voters who think Corbyn should do more to oppose Brexit?
Part of what I was saying.Seriously? That’s how you’d categorise Labour voters who think Corbyn should do more to oppose Brexit?
He's a cockney actor. That's how they talk. In that part of London.
Wait until you hear this cockney accent.It's the weirdest cockney accent I've heard. But he says 'Twat' with a delivery that McKellen wishes he could emulate.
The recent criticisms of Labour Brexit stance has come from 1)The Pro EU march which mostly had Lib Dems and pro EU conservatives 2)The banner at the Labour Live thing was from a group who share a office with former Lib Dems and Tory politicians.Seriously? That’s how you’d categorise Labour voters who think Corbyn should do more to oppose Brexit?
The whole point may be to move politics towards the left - nevertheless all political leaders have to be aware of what's happening in a more general context as well. If Brexit's a disaster and Corbyn's seen as having placated it I suspect the Labour centrists will take advantage in the long-term. Corbyn's left-wing politics don't exist in a cosy vacuum - Brexit's the biggest national issue (generally speaking) we face right now and promoting a left-wing platform filled with mostly reasonable and decent ideas while ignoring it evidently strikes a lot of people as somewhere between delusional and disingenuous.Yeah that could've of been the case but a lot of people didn't like that approach so they joined in big numbers to change the party. If people aren't happy with Labour view on Brexit well then they should join the party and try to change it. What we have at the moment is a small group of conservatives and liberals voters complaining that a socialist labour leader isn't listening to their demands. I posted a newstatemans article a few pages back which put it well - It's far easier for some to image all that's needed to stay in the EU is to change one man mind rather then the reality being that it will take years possibly decades of fighting.
The whole of point(In the beginning anyway)was to elect a far left leader with the hope of moving politics to the left(The honest politics stuff was always just nice P.R).
I'm coming around more to the idea that the window of opportunity for the first-world Left created by the financial crisis has been repeatedly squandered and is now beyond reach. Bernie and Corbyn were mirages that gave false hope of something changing. In both countries, domestic politics will ensure they will not get power. The other ticking clock is global warming, and 2016 made sure that's ahead of schedule. The world is fecked.The whole point may be to move politics towards the left - nevertheless all political leaders have to be aware of what's happening in a more general context as well. If Brexit's a disaster and Corbyn's seen as having placated it I suspect the Labour centrists will take advantage in the long-term. Corbyn's left-wing politics don't exist in a cosy vacuum - Brexit's the biggest national issue (generally speaking) we face right now and promoting a left-wing platform filled with mostly reasonable and decent ideas while ignoring it evidently strikes a lot of people as somewhere between delusional and disingenuous.
Ultimately the group who're benefiting most from his stance here are right-wing Brexiteers who want to see less immigrants.
What part of London would that be?He's a cockney actor. That's how they talk in that part of London.
East London.What part of London would that be?
Only chavs from Essex who think it's cool to be a cockney caricature talk like he does.East London.
I don't think people will wait 'til the last minute to sell pounds. If it does fall off a cliff it will be at the moment 'no deal' becomes probable, not several months afterwards.I work for a foreign exchange company.
The pound is going to fall off a cliff in March isn't it?
Should start falling from October when it starts to become clear we are leaving without a deal. I know traders who are already shorting the £.I work for a foreign exchange company.
The pound is going to fall off a cliff in March isn't it?
Or when a no-deal is a certain outcome.I work for a foreign exchange company.
The pound is going to fall off a cliff in March isn't it?
The paradox of brexit is summed up when you find out Danny Dyer voted to leave.
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Agree with you on this. The left, certainly aided by Corbyn's un-invisibility cloak, have become useful idiots to us right-wingers.The whole point may be to move politics towards the left - nevertheless all political leaders have to be aware of what's happening in a more general context as well. If Brexit's a disaster and Corbyn's seen as having placated it I suspect the Labour centrists will take advantage in the long-term. Corbyn's left-wing politics don't exist in a cosy vacuum - Brexit's the biggest national issue (generally speaking) we face right now and promoting a left-wing platform filled with mostly reasonable and decent ideas while ignoring it evidently strikes a lot of people as somewhere between delusional and disingenuous.
Ultimately the group who're benefiting most from his stance here are right-wing Brexiteers who want to see less immigrants.
Apparently the ultimate aim is that in 20 years time the UK will have managed to obtain what they already have but have to suffer for 20 years to achieve that.I dont understand why your entire political establishment is allowing Farage & JRM to drive the country off a cliff. Why the feck does no deal brexit look the most likely outcome at this stage?
The genius of brexit is making it look like the elite want us to stay in the EU or that brexit was some sort of protest. I think most revolutions have that facade.I dont understand why your entire political establishment is allowing Farage & JRM to drive the country off a cliff. Why the feck does no deal brexit look the most likely outcome at this stage?
Because we are run by useless idiots.I dont understand why your entire political establishment is allowing Farage & JRM to drive the country off a cliff. Why the feck does no deal brexit look the most likely outcome at this stage?
I mean using this forum as a microcosm:His problem is this:
The majority of the subset of Conservatives who are also staunch Remainers would never consider voting Labour even if it meant scuppering Brexit.
On the other hand, the subset of Labour voters who would either vote for a Tory government or abstain for 5 years just to ensure Brexit happens is considerably larger than the subset Tory Remainers who would vote for labour.
So sadly, it would be political suicide. The result would be a large Tory Majority and dickheads like Boris and Rees Mogg would be free to push through whatever they liked.
At least by “supporting the vote” it gives Corbyn a chance to sneak into power if it all goes tits up and even if Brexit is damaging, at least we would have a government who will be interested in protecting national services and the basic rights and interests of the majority of the British public.
Paul did admit he would have voted for Cameron if he had to vote, comical.I mean using this forum as a microcosm:
the only Tory voter who has openly abandoned their party is Paul. But he had already left before Brexit. Everybody else was either a Brexiteer (Nick, both Vidics, Fearless) or hasn't left despite opposition to Brexit (Colin I guess).
OTOH, half the Labour support openly wants to ditch the party on this issue and some did vote Lib Dem.
I agree with most of that. The window was there and was indeed squandered. I think we’re at a point now where the only positive route is to step back and consolidate, focus on the immediate crisis problems, and look ahead for the bigger improvements. If we insist on them now, then the house is going to burn down around us.I'm coming around more to the idea that the window of opportunity for the first-world Left created by the financial crisis has been repeatedly squandered and is now beyond reach. Bernie and Corbyn were mirages that gave false hope of something changing. In both countries, domestic politics will ensure they will not get power. The other ticking clock is global warming, and 2016 made sure that's ahead of schedule. The world is fecked.
They see the EU as a neoliberal leviathan. His comrades in ideology want to leave the EU and develop and new socialist state.I'm really struggling with that one. If I'm not mistaken Corbyn never said that he was anti-Brexit and he never led people to believe that something like that. Throughout is political career he in fact has been vocally anti-EU, the only thing that you can say about him is that he isn't shouting on every roofs that he is pro Brexit. The problem here is with people who are mistakenly thinking that being the opposing party means that you are anti Brexit, that's at best naive and at worst really stupid. The current reality is that Labour and Tory leaders are pro Brexit, they might not have the same type of post Brexit in mind, but they all want it for different reasons.
At least that's my reading of the situation.
In truth it was always a strong possibility given the complexity of the deal... I mean we have not even sorted out the Irish boarder which was always a pretty obvious sticking point... Let alone the technical details of a trade deal... I mean realistically I don't think even the blinkered brexiteer brigade expect services in general or even a special financial services deal to be on the table now...I dont understand why your entire political establishment is allowing Farage & JRM to drive the country off a cliff. Why the feck does no deal brexit look the most likely outcome at this stage?
That’s definitely what’s happening.They see the EU as a neoliberal leviathan. His comrades in ideology want to leave the EU and develop and new socialist state.
Personally I think Corbyn is loving Brexit because 1. it can destroy the Tories for a generation and 2. it removes us from the EU.
I’m sure privately him and McDonnell feel the pieces are falling into place for them.
Did I. I don't know - I hadn't lived in the UK for 8 years before the 2015 election and didn't follow UK politics at all after I left until the pound started nosediving in November 2015.Paul did admit he would have voted for Cameron if he had to vote, comical.
That's how I see it too and when you listen to the answer that he gave to Piers Morgan, he is offering hard brexit.They see the EU as a neoliberal leviathan. His comrades in ideology want to leave the EU and develop and new socialist state.
Personally I think Corbyn is loving Brexit because 1. it can destroy the Tories for a generation and 2. it removes us from the EU.
I’m sure privately him and McDonnell feel the pieces are falling into place for them.
With a different flavour cake to eat. But this was obvious from before the referendum.That's how I see it too and when you listen to the answer that he gave to Piers Morgan, he is offering hard brexit.
All of this could be true even if Corbyn took a more pro remain stance.The whole point may be to move politics towards the left - nevertheless all political leaders have to be aware of what's happening in a more general context as well. If Brexit's a disaster and Corbyn's seen as having placated it I suspect the Labour centrists will take advantage in the long-term. Corbyn's left-wing politics don't exist in a cosy vacuum - Brexit's the biggest national issue (generally speaking) we face right now and promoting a left-wing platform filled with mostly reasonable and decent ideas while ignoring it evidently strikes a lot of people as somewhere between delusional and disingenuous.
Ultimately the group who're benefiting most from his stance here are right-wing Brexiteers who want to see less immigrants.
He's on a different planet if he thinks he wouldn't get any blowback when hard brexit turnns to shit.They see the EU as a neoliberal leviathan. His comrades in ideology want to leave the EU and develop and new socialist state.
Personally I think Corbyn is loving Brexit because 1. it can destroy the Tories for a generation and 2. it removes us from the EU.
I’m sure privately him and McDonnell feel the pieces are falling into place for them.
You have to admit that the man is smooth though.With a different flavour cake to eat. But this was obvious from before the referendum.
I don't rate him at all. You know how poorly I rate the current government, somehow I rate him lower.You have to admit that the man is smooth though.
The problem is that it is deeper underlying issues that created these crises (Brexit and Trump). So beating them without addressing inequality (for example) will just mean we get a worse repeat sooner or later.I agree with most of that. The window was there and was indeed squandered. I think we’re at a point now where the only positive route is to step back and consolidate, focus on the immediate crisis problems, and look ahead for the bigger improvements. If we insist on them now, then the house is going to burn down around us.
It's not just domestic politics though, is it? There is also a messaging problem here. Jeremy Corbyn campaigning for Brexit is like Indian techies who came to US on H1 getting citizenship and then protesting H1. A liberal all inclusive society friendly to immigrant population (both legal and forced) is at odds with the anti-globalistic view of Corbyn. The guy is doing his best to manage his message not to piss off both sides. I don't get why Jeremy Corbyn should be held to a higher standard than any other politician but hard lefties now insisting younger people in favor of Brexit to see the bigger picture to get a far left candidate are the same who wouldn't compromise on Sanders.I'm coming around more to the idea that the window of opportunity for the first-world Left created by the financial crisis has been repeatedly squandered and is now beyond reach. Bernie and Corbyn were mirages that gave false hope of something changing. In both countries, domestic politics will ensure they will not get power. The other ticking clock is global warming, and 2016 made sure that's ahead of schedule. The world is fecked.
Right, so your issue is that the left wants compromise with Corbyn but not with the Dems. The problem is the political situations in both countries are very different.It's not just domestic politics though, is it? There is also a messaging problem here. Jeremy Corbyn campaigning for Brexit is like Indian techies who came to US on H1 getting citizenship and then protesting H1. A liberal all inclusive society friendly to immigrant population (both legal and forced) is at odds with the anti-globalistic view of Corbyn. The guy is doing his best to manage his message not to piss off both sides. I don't get why Jeremy Corbyn should be held to a higher standard than any other politician but hard lefties now insisting younger people in favor of Brexit to see the bigger picture to get a far left candidate are the same who wouldn't compromise on Sanders.
Yes, it's in this very thread. You would have voted for the very man that gave you what you now hate.Did I. I don't know
Well if I did, you are still saying that the people who voted for Brexit have no responsibility at all. If Cameron then also voted for Brexit, yes.Yes, it's in this very thread. You would have voted for the very man that gave you what you now hate.